I noticed yesterday a long detailed document was posted by the CGWC with a very long explanation of the whole tendering process and info on the excavations plus biographies on the technical experts- Worth reading..
Richard

http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=englis...view/news140909

An interesting exercise in spin and self justification.

Other posters have commented upon the way in which the project has been conducted almost as if it involved top state secrets and that the lack of openess and transparency invited the damaging speculation and criticism that this report now attempts to refute.

The project managers now insist that there was openess and transparency all along:

We are always keen to encourage anyone having questions or concerns to raise them with us. Then we can address them appropriately and quickly for the good of the project but more importantly so that uninformed opinion and incorrect thinking does not circulate. This is vitally important as to fail to do so can cause significant angst to all involved, not least the relatives of the Fromelles soldiers who continue to monitor this project with keen interest.

Well, I for one, am very pleased to hear this. Perhaps the project managers could now be so good as to
release the details of the pilot DNA study and simply confirm the nationality division of the remains based upon the
associated artefacts found with the remains?

After all, we do not want 'uninformed opinion and incorrect thinking' to circulate.

Do my nostrils detect a very strong waft of hypocrisy?

Mel

I was thinking more in terms of the cliche, "shutting the gate after the horse has bolted".

I must admit that it still seems like a very closed circle around the release of any information. I tried to find out an approximate nationality split amongst the 250 but was told this was not known. I kind of find this a little difficult to swallow because they have openly stated that the majority appear to be Australian so someone must have some sort of an idea - I did only specify 'approximate'.

I simply wished to find this out to give us a rough estimate of how many more Australians we should be attempting to locate among the records. At present the list is 191 (and I have discovered another definite 1, possibly 2) but if for example there are thought to be about 230 Australians recovered, then at least I know to look for somewhere in the vicinity of 40 more.

I just don't get what the big secret is for. Surely they would like to have people cracking on with the research ASAP given the limited time they've allowed themselves.

It's very frustrating.

Cheers,
Tim L.

Tim

I absolutely agree that the drip feeding of information as and when it is deemed to be 'appropriate' is frustrating.

The report is the first time that explicit confirmation has been provided that viable YDNA has been recovered from the vascular tooth pulp of the pilot sample remains. Why on earth they cannot simply release the actual report on the pilot study is beyond me. Instead we are fed mealy mouthed waffle about large and small bones not yielding productive samples thereby exculpating them from the supposed great debate of the femur versus the rib when everyman and his dog knew that tooth pulp was always going to be the primary source of viable samples.

As for nobody knowing the breakdown in nationality for the 250, it is obvious that these creatures cannot even be consistent in their porkies. One of the earlier blogs released after a 100+ set of remains had been recovered actually confirmed that all but three could be identified by nationality through the surrounding artefacts.

Mel

Does anyone know if the 'other tests' inferred will include bone trace element analysis? This would be highly likely to identify at least 3 groups.

British raised in UK
Australian raised in Australia
Australian (by artefact) raised in UK (or elsewhere)

however it would depend on what reference material is available but UK or Australian raised difference is probably a high possiblity.

Who do we ask to get this sort of info?

Galena

As far as I am aware the only tests to be conducted are for DNA sampling and nothing more.

In the new era of CWGC 'glasnost' you could contact their spinmeister at peter.francis@cwgc.org and seek a response to your question.

Mel

Mel,

'Other tests' were mentioned, not sure where now, since information dribbled out. There will be no Opportunity to re-sample after the lads are at rest, so I hope all appropriate science will be applied before that time. Yes I did notice the glasnosts, will I get a reasonable answer? Archaeology, like astronomy, is a discipline where the maximum amount of information must be obtained from the evidence available.

A question for Tim. Of the putative set of Australians, were all Australian born, how many UK or Ireland and any from other places?

I think it would be reasonable to ask whether Oxygen Isotope Analysis of bone is being used to identify any individuals origins- in other words what water people drank gives a clue to where they came from. Been used on a BBC "Meet the Ancestors" programme for a Roman Princess. The only problem with more modern drinking water is that it comes from reservoirs some distance from where people live, which started to happen in late Victorian cities.

Richard






I think it would be reasonable to ask whether Oxygen Isotope Analysis of bone is being used to identify any individuals origins- in other words what water people drank gives a clue to where they came from. Been used on a BBC "Meet the Ancestors" programme for a Roman Princess. The only problem with more modern drinking water is that it comes from reservoirs some distance from where people live, which started to happen in late Victorian cities.

Richard

Back a couple of years when the authorities were still hesitant to accept that remains in mass graves existed at Pheasant Wood, an Australian group who called themselves ROAM (Recovering Overseas Australian Missing) enlisted a number of international experts and stated they would privately fund their own recovery and testing if Govt refused. Of course, that never happened but at the time they claimed that Strontium Isotope analysis of tooth enamel could assist in determining the likely 'locational lifespan' of a body. i.e. whether they lived entirely in the UK or Australia or whether they'd been raised in the UK but lived in Australia etc.

However at the time, the authorities, who were still doubtful of the graves even existing, downplayed the potential uses of Strontium Isotope testing, basically dismissing it as being the stuff of mad scientists.

As a result, I am lead to believe that there will be no testing of this kind conducted and DNA matching is all that will be attempted.

I do wonder whether, by initially discrediting Strontium Isotope testing, the authorities have found themselves in a position of thinking they have to save face by sticking by their original comments. I don't believe cost is a consideration - I have seen quotes that would suggest the 250 could be tested for approximately $70,000. We have a great opportunity here to achieve something remarkable and I just hope that it's not being wasted because governments fear some slight embarrassment over being proved wrong on this issue. But I can't seem to shake this horrible feeling....

Galena,
The breakdown of the 191 Australians on the working list is as follows:
Australian born: 152
English born: 30
Scottish born: 4
Irish born: 2
New Zealand born: 2
Swiss born: 1

Cheers,
Tim L.

Thanks, some useful disparity there, i Would have thought. Worth 70k

I can't see any reason why the potentially useful isotopic analysis of the teeth should not be done - surely it would be a useful adjunct to the DNA ID work.

I hope the authorities don't rush to put an end to the works by insisting that the teeth are interred with the remains immediately the DNA work is completed. I would hope that the teeth are to be retained in anticipation of future forensic developments that might possibly produce further confirmed IDs which is the main aim of the game.

That said, I sympathise with the CWGC to a degree with reference to putting information in the public domain. They must await a full report of the excavation from OA. Like everyone else, I am desperate to get information about positive IDs but we will just have to be patient for a few more months. I have to trust that everyone is absolutely committed to maximising the results of the ID process - it would be perverse to have any other attitude - but I do have a normal paranoid mistrust of officialdom!

Tracing Adam......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/aug...forensicscience


.

.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/sep...-cutting-police

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Mel, you could have said to contact Peter Francis at the CWGC without using the word "spinmeister". This does a diservice to people on the whole, who do an excellent job of work, you only have to look at the beautifully kept cemetery's scattered through Belgium and France to see the results the CWGC achieve for the fallen.
I sometimes despair at the self-importance some of our forum members attach to themselves, and can do nothing but criticise others doing their job of work. No-one is perfect...no-one...
regards
Tom

Hi Tom – I understand where you are coming from as I think everyone would agree that the CWGC horticulturalists and gardeners do a wonderful job worldwide maintaining the cemeteries and one cannot help but be impressed with their marvellous work. However, Mel is not alone in despairing at the attitude shown by, shall we say, the management level at the CWGC. In that context I don’t think it inappropriate to describe Peter Francis as a “spinmeister" as he has been the conduit for all CWGC media releases.
Cheers
Jeremy

I echo Jeremy's sentiments. We cannot fault the way in which the Commission and its employees care for the cemeteries in which our men lie or the way in which they ensure that each and every man is properly and accurately commemorated. Fromelles, however, has been a different beast entirely. For an organisation which has always shown a somewhat private front, this project must have come as a severe shock to the Commission's system.

Contrary to public belief, the tracking down of the families of the 331 missing British casualties was never the task of the MoD or the CWGC. It was a task taken on by a small group of volunteer (amateur) researchers. Mel has spearheaded this and his frustration at the lack of understanding and help offered to us has been shared by many of us. We expected more. Believe me, Mel could have said an awful lot more in his post - but he didn't.

V.

Thank you all for the clarification, and now I understand that the members who have posted comments, have first hand knowledge of the workings of the CWGC hierachy, and as such have every reason to be discontented.
regards to all
Tom

Interesting that the article listed in post 12 states that the Australian authorities use isotopic analysis to test the claims of asylum seekers about their places of origin. Obviously, it's a familiar technique that should be used to assist the ID process with the Fromelles fallen.