Whilst making a tally of the number of each rank to win the VC I discovered that 30 Lt Col's won it during WW1.

Out of these 30 - Only 4 held the rank permanantly.
13 are listed as Temp Lt Col
and 13 are listed as Acting Lt Col

Does anyone know the difference in these ranks ?

Neil

Yet another subject already covered in detail earlier in the forum. Worth doing a search. As its late I'm not going to do one now. However temporary had more than one meaning. By the end of the war the majority of officers were temporary in that they held a temporary commission - in effect until the end of the war. This mainly applied to Lts and Captains. Higher ranks could be temporary appointments - the person involved held a substantive rank of, say, major but had been appointed Lt Colonel until further notice. To confuse matters I believe that there could be acting temporary ranks - do the search!

Officers were appointed to acting ranks when they held particular position carrying a rank above their substantive rank, i.e. a substantive Lieutenant being appointed an Acting Captain while second-in-command of a battery or being appointed an Acting Major while in command of a battery. Officers could hold temporary ranks in two ways: (1) officers who held an appointment above their substantive rank for a period of time could be appointed to that temporary rank, and (2) some officers who served in the regulars were given Temporary Commissions for the duration of the war and were designated as Temporary Lieutenant, Temporary Captain, etc.

If you look at the ranks indicated for officers decorated with a DSO or MC the officer will often be shown as holding all three ranks (Substantive, Temporary and Acting), i.e. Lieutenant (Temporary Captain)(Acting Major), etc.

Regards, Gunner 1

Thanks for your replies

Can I offer the following comments:

First I would qualify Rflory's post, promotion in the British (Commonwealth) Army's was and is tightly controlled in order that they did/do not end up "over Establishment" too much, during WW1 this control was particularly evident by the substantial number of "temporary" and "Acting" ranks at all levels. To be "Substantively" promoted you had to meet the qualification criteria and pass the necessary courses, before the person was considered by the appropriate authority, in the case of officers this would be the "Military Secretary". Military Secretary's existed at a number of levels of command during WW1, ultimate authority rested with the General Staff MilSec at the War Office, but I would suspect that "he" devolved his authority for specific ranks and circumstances to those at the GHQ's (BEF, EEF and MEF) and that they in turn devolved some authority to MilSec's at the respective Army HQ's.

The other qualifying point about "substantive" promotion is that of "War Establishments"and "Peace Establishments" it was no good having more substantive personnel than they needed for the government agreed "Peace Establishments" which is why they had "for the Duration" service and promotion.

Temporary and Acting Ranks are also used in both Peace and War, as rflory has mentioned a person could be "Temorarily" commissioned for the duration of the war, in the example he gave of a "regular" I would suggest he is referring to a Warrant Officer or Sergeant being "temporarily" commissioned for service, probably with a Territorial or New Army unit, and at the end of the war that person would "revert" to their former rank and return to their regular battalion. But more importantly "Temporary" promotion has a degree more formality attached to it, the persons appointment has been approved by the controlling authority for that rank and position (ie: a MilSec), the person if meeting the qualififying criteria may become "substantive" at some point in the future (ie: when someone who is filling the establishment hole is killed or leaves) subject to approval by the MilSec.

Acting officer rank has less heirarchial control reflecting local immediate need, but still very much relates to the units authorised "Establishment Table", the promotion will generally not have been authorised by the MilSec coming from within a units or formations personnel resources. It will reflect a local commanders need for someone to carry out the duties of the apointment until such time as a "substantively or temporarily" promoted officer can be posted into the unit from one of the Depot's or Schools.

The system for soldiers is essentially similar, for Warrant Officers and Sergeants control of the positions and appointments would have been invested in the Corps/Regimental Depot's whilst at LCPL/CPL the unit commanders would have had authority to promote soldiers substantively/temporarily, subject to their Authorised Peace/War Establishments and the soldiers meeting the necessary course and qualifying service criteria.


I hope this makes sense,
Hendo

Hendo wrote:

Hendo: Please make any point that you wish, but please do not suggest to what someone else was referring, especially when your suggestions are incorrect!. I was not referring to Warrant Officers or Serjeants being temporarily commissioned for service with Territorial or New Army units. If you look in any Monthly Army List for the 1915 to 1918 for the Royal Field Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery the listings of officers are divided into Regular, Special Reserve and Territorial Force lists. Within the 'Regular' category there is a listing of Regular officers listed by their substantive ranks followed by a second listing entitled 'Temporary and Acting Majors', 'Temporary and Acting Captains', 'Temporary and Acting Lieutenants', 'Temporary and Acting 2nd Lieutenants.' While a few of these officers were promoted from the ranks, the majority of them received temporary Regular commissions for the duration of the war and their ranks always carried the prefix 'Temporary.' I would also mention that, at least in the Royal Artillery, WOs and Serjeants 'Temporarily' commissioned from the ranks in the Regular, Territorial or New Army during the Great War generally did not revert to their former rank after the war. They continued their service, resigned or retired in their commissioned rank.

Regards, Dick Flory

A Regular other rank, corporal or above, who fulfilled the conditions and who was recommended, received a REGULAR commission under the normal pre-war rules. Indeed, I suspect that no temporary commission was ever offered to an OR.

Grumpy: While that was probably true in the early years of the Great War, there are numerous examples of Regular Royal Artillery ORs (I can't speak for other regiments) who were commissioned as 2nd Lieutenants in the Special Reserve. A couple of examples:

93222 Sjt. G H Allsop, RGA was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant, RGA Special Reserve on 25 Nov 1917.
37060 BQMS H J Bull, RFA was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant, RGA Special Reserve on 5 Aug 1917.

Regards, Dick Flory

Commissioned into the Special Reserve is not a 'Temporary' commission it is a 'Regular' commission into the Special Reserve some of whom where called up in the 2nd WW.

An Officer or man come to that, attained the Rank of his Appointment, if a he was appointed to be in temporary command of a company he was given the temporary rank of captain a battalion Temporary Lt Col. If appointed Acting he was an acting rank, this is purly a matter for the Commanding officer.

Regards Charles

Charles: If your comments were made as a result of something I wrote, I must state that I never said that there was any relationship between Temporary commissions and Special Reserve commissions. In fact I clearly stated that there were three categories of RA commissions: Regular, Special Reserve and Territorial and that 'Temporary commissions' were a subcategory under the Regular forces. I think you may have also confused 'Special Reserve' and 'Reserve of Officers' which are two completely different categories. As far as I am aware there was no 'Special Reserve' after April 1920. There was a 'Reserve of Officers' for both the Regular Army and the Territorial Army up through World War II and many of those officers were re-employed during WWII; a list of officers who were in the Reserve of Officers was published as a Half-Yearly Supplement to the Monthly Army List in June and December of each year. Your interpretation of Temporary rank is also not entirely correct as most initial appointments of officers in temporary command of a battery or company were made as 'Acting' ranks and were published in the London Gazette as such, usually with the wording: 'appointed an Acting Major whilst in command of a siege battery' or 'appointed an Acting Captain whilst second-in-command of a battery.' Regards, Dick Flory

Dick,

"While that was probably true in the early years of the Great War, there are numerous examples of Regular Royal Artillery ORs (I can't speak for other regiments) who were commissioned as 2nd Lieutenants in the Special Reserve. A couple of examples:"

I thought that you differentiated between Regular and Special Reserve (on permanent service) with that statement, they rank equally in the order of precedence, above Territorial and the Reserve of Officers.

No not getting 'Special Reserve' and the 'Reserve of Officers' mixed up at all, I stand by my statement.

Acting Rank is a 'Local' rank approved by GOC-in-C, Temporary rank by Whitehall.

Regards Charles

Dick,

Apologies for trying to expand on what you had written, I did it because it seemed to unclear me. Having said that I acknowledge what you have later said about leaving the service, it makes a lot of sense. Could I add that I meant no differentiation between those who served in the regulars, territorials, or New Army, I wrote only of the process for substantiave, temporary and acting ranks, from my own very short experience of a managing these sort of issues, which I believe remains little changed from today and I believe was what the original poster was trying to understand.

Again my apologies, if I have caused problems.

Cheers,
hendo

So how are "acting" and temporary" different from "honorary"?

Before the war, almost all quartermasters and riding masters were commissioned from the ranks, often from SM or QMS, into a QM commission or an RM commission which was 'non-combatant' in that they were not expected to command soldiers in combat. Such officers were given the title QM and Hon. Lt. etc, with promotion up to QM and Hon. Maj. feasible. Such officers were not quite full members of the Mess, the QM of 2nd RWF being invited each Friday to dine in. They appeared separately on the regimental entry in the Army List.

Joseph,

'Acting' rank is not 'Local' rank. The main difference being that whereas 'Acting' rank is paid, 'Local' rank is not. 'Local' rank can be conferred by the CO, whereas 'Acting' rank has to be applied for by the CO.

Woolly

When using the present tense, are you describing the Great War period?

I think not, as 'local' rank was entirely different.

KR 1914 para 224 precis:

Relative precedence: officers with permanent or local rank take precedence over those with temporary rank
Local rank conferred by the King carries with it same precedence and command as permanent rank as long as appointment held.
[Local rank was conferred mainly overseas when a post demanded a certain level of 'stars' [to use modern parlance] and nobody in theatre to fill it.]
[This local rank was certainly paid .... apart from anything else, appearances had to be kept up!]

This is from Hansard in 1909:

Territorial Force (Honorary Rank).HC Deb 26 April 1909 vol 4 cc3-4 3
§ Mr. GEORGE GIBBS asked the Secretary for War whether the granting of honorary rank to officers of the Territorial Force is to be discontinued; and if so, since the granting of this honorary rank costs the country nothing, whether he will state the reasons for this step?

4
§ Mr. HALDANE The abolition of honorary rank in the Territorial Force was one of the measures adopted in conformity with the principle of assimilating pro-the Regular Forces. In place of honorary cedure in that Force more closely with rank brevet rank will be given under paragraph 28 of the Territorial Force Regulations for distinguished service in the field or for meritorious or distinguished service of an exceptional nature other than in the field. This is in strict conformity with the practice in the Regular Army. In consideration of the fact that many officers of the Volunteer Force were on the point of qualifying for a step of honorary rank on 31st March, 1908, after which it ceased to be given, a concession of a year's service has been made to meet such cases, so that any officer who would have obtained a step of honorary rank by 31st March, 1909, will be given it as if the Volunteer Force had continued to that date.

§ Mr. GIBBS In view of the fact that a great many of these officers have served a number of years, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to retain them for at least another five years?

§ Mr. HALDANE It is much more important that the Regular Army and the Territoral Force should be under one set of regulations. Very many of these sham distinctions which used to exist are just the very things we wish to eliminate.

§ Mr. H. A. WATT Will this new honorary rank, to be substituted for the one abolished, be optional on the part of the commanding officer, or will the officer have it as a right?

§ Mr. HALDANE It is not optional at all. It is going to be given for meritorious, services only, and it is not going to be given to officers as a mere honorary distinction.

§ Mr. GIBBS Is it the fact that the brevet rank is given for meritorious services in the field, and in the case of actual warfare?

§ Mr. HALDANE The hon. Member apparently did not catch what I read: "In place of honorary rank brevet rank will be given under paragraph 28 of the Territorial Force Regulations for distinguished service in the field or for meritorious or distinguished service of an exceptional nature other than in the field."


Onefrom Hansard for Grumpy:


The Territorial Army—Promotions to Honorary Rank.HC Deb 16 March 1908 vol 186 c179 179
§ MR. REES (Montgomery Boroughs) I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that the regulations for the Volunteer Force prohibited more than one promotion to honorary rank, and that thereby quartermasters were unable to rise beyond the honorary rank of captain, he will make provision in the regulations for the Territorial Army that quartermasters who have received the honorary rank of captain may, after a prescribed term of years, be allowed the further step to the honorary rank of major.

§ MR HALDANE Yes, Sir. Provision will be made for this in the forthcoming regulations.

Thanks .... you will have noted that I avoided VF/TF honoray ranks ...... deliberately, as I do not understand them!