Hi all,

Saved this chap while walking through a Brooklyn neighborhood yesterday...he had been put out on the curb with the trash! I wanted to post the picture to confirm if he is Great War-era or not and if so, perhaps learn a little about him and the gigantic gun he is standing next to:

Click to view attachment

If there is interest I will host the picture so that folks can see a larger version and the accompanying details. Sadly, there is no information on the picture whatsoever, so it is very unlikely we will ever know who this is.

Thanks,

-Daniel

The camouflage paint on the gun would suggest that it dates from WW1 but this does not automatically make the photo of this era - it could have ended up as a gate guardian or a memorial. There were American naval gunners in France but with even bigger guns that this and they wore army style uniforms.

"The camouflage paint on the gun would suggest that it dates from WW1 but this does not automatically make the photo of this era "

Are there camouflage nets in the trees above? If so, they would suggest 'on active service' but he is not wearing any 'right arm rate'.

Do the collar and black scarf,no lanyard, give any clues to the sailor's nationality? The cap is a bit indistinct except to show that most sailors tend to be 'lairs' when not under supervision.

Hi all,

Interesting stuff. I hosted the pic so we can all get a better look:



Not sure if I see nets in the picture or not. Does this help?

-Daniel

It looks as if it might be a German gun- the steel spoked wheels and something about the hydraulic system.
Greg

Is that another piece of military hardware in the background, on the far left of the photograph?

Regards
CGM

It looks right for WW1 - perhaps a German 21cm (8") howitzer (and the metalwork to the left of the standing figure is its trail). It's too tidy and there's none of the expected paraphernalia around it for this to be 'in the field', so I suspect Centurion is right about it being a trophy gun. Also, the man is hardly dressed for winter conditions, so he is presumably somewhere not far from warmth and shelter - a park perhaps.

E01229 Maker: Hurley, James Francis (Frank) Place made: Western Front: Western Front (Belgium), Ypres Area Ypres Date made: c October 1917 Physical description: Black & white Summary: An 8 inch Mark I Howitzer, one of a battery which participated in the Third Battle of Ypres. Note the caterpillar wheels by which the passage of the gun over the muddy ground was made possible. Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain

There are many pix of howitzers on www.awm.gov.au.

For what its worth, I have given up on the camouflage nets, having now seen a few examples, and have 'decided' that our sailor is a 'between the wars' reservist out to impress his sheilagh in front of a WW1 trophy in his local park.

PS The "Sailor's" gun looks very much like one that I THINK is on the dust jacket of a book about WW1 trophies dustributed amongst Australian local councils, schools, etc


P02667.016
Date made: c 1919
Physical description: Black & white
Summary: France. c. 1919. A group of civilian men and women and officers visiting the former battlefields stand in front of a German short barrel 21 cm Morser Howitzer. Identified is Senator Sir George Pearce, Minister for the Army, right. A pile of rubble is in the background, left. (Donor J. Borwick)
Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain

Before going any further is it clear what Navy he came from? I have googled and seen a US Navy blue cap simiilar to the British one, and the black scarf could also be US Navy. Given the proximity of the Brooklyn Naval Yard to the source of the photograph it seems reasonable to assume US Navy-do you know if there were any trophy guns in New York parks between the wars?
Greg

This gun looks more like the right one. In the previous picture the barrel was too low (in that pic it was between the wheels...in my pic it was above the wheels).

The guy also looks like his uniform is a little small, or he needs the sleeves let out a bit.

Re: war trophies in NYC parks and such, I have NO idea about that and would not have the foggiest idea where to begin.

-Daniel

I think the gun in pic 9 is more likely to be the one in question. Orig gun has a 9 spoke wheel the next one 15 spoke mwheel, although they are both wearing standard
caterpillar inserts for use in muddy conditions. If you blow up the pic to 400 percent it looks like the sailor is wearing white gloves - non service as far as I can remember
but the uniform is no 1 winter dress - black woolen front and black cap indicating that the service is probably RN or Canadian navy. Australian sailors didnt wear black caps
to my knowledge - never got into cold enough conditions. Cant see a lanyard though.
As armidale says probably out to impress his girl friend.
David

I would suggest that this is Beatie Park Brooklyn close to the Navy Yards. The Park was named in memory of Joseph S. Beattie, who lived at 247 Schenectady Avenue in Brooklyn. Beattie served as a Private in Company G of the 305th Infantry in the United States Army in World War I and died on a battlefield in France on October 5, 1918. In this park was displayed the first German gun captured by US forces in WW1. It was presented by the US Navy in 1924. I understand there may still be a plaque.

As has been suggested the guy is probably impressing his goil (well it is Brooklyn) - although if you believe 'The Village People' well.........hallo sailor!

In reference to the sailor, I would suggest the he is RN perhaps on Duty (no lanyard). I believe that even during that era Canadian Sailors had " CANADA " shoulder flashes sewn on their uniforms.

Yours Aye
Mitch

ARTV06112 Title: All together. Enlist in the navy Maker: Reuterdahl, Henry; US Navy; Unknown Object type: Poster Place made: United States (Place printed); United States (Place published) Date made: 1917 (Date printed); 1917 (Date published) Physical description: lithograph Measurements: 74.2 x 110.2 cm Summary: recruitment, sailors, patriotism; recruiting poster for the US Navy, depicting sailors from Japan, USA, United Kingdom, Imperial and, with the flag of each country beneath and warships in the background Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain; Copyright expired


"As has been suggested the guy is probably impressing his goil (well it is Brooklyn) - although if you believe 'The Village People' well.........hallo sailor!"......Yeh! so what else is new lol.

Seriously though, The white 'gloves' could have been the white 'flashes' at the cuffs of the US sailors' jackets. They are evident in the above poster.

I'd say full marks to the id given by Centurian

I had wondered about the short sleeves but US sailors do wear white and blue bands on their cuffs as previously suggested. Looking at the gun it looks like a 21 cm German (Thank you Cnock)
If centurion is right then I think the date would be quite early, within a year or so of the gun being presented. It still seems to be in remarkably good shape with little evidence of corrosion etc., so maybe 1924-25?
Greg

Not wishing to be picky, Greg, but I beat my friend Cnock to it by about 6 hours (see post #7 on this thread) ...

Sorry siege gunner!
Greg

This site gives some detail of the Beatie gun (use 'read more'), but also indicates that there were many others elsewhere, of which just 8 are said to remain today; I wonder what the odds are of this photo showing one of the ones that still survives (assuming, of course, that the photo was actually taken in the Big Apple)

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/B006/

NigelS

It could of course have been taken in when the sailor was on leave in Smalltown Mas and posted to the mans Aunt in Brooklyn or something like that but given that the photo was found in Brooklyn, has a sailor on it (not wearing a coat in mid winter) and the park is not far from the Navy Yards it seems a likely candidate.

Saved this chap while walking through a Brooklyn neighborhood yesterday...he had been put out on the curb with the trash.

From the evidence initially presented, I would deduce that the "aunt in BRooklyn" option is the more plausible. The photo was not in the Navy Yards' trash. Perhaps the sailor's cousins were dividing their mother's estate ....

But why the smokescreen Centurian??

You came up with the goods on poor old Pte Beattie, (almost to a T), and on the anniversary of his death,,,, see "Remembered Yesterday"

Don't understand your comment

If you have a gun in park near the Navy yards and you have a photo of a sailor by similar gun (and who has not come far given his coatless condition in the snow) isn't there an obvious inference? Perhaps he also lived in Brooklyn?

"Don't understand your comment"

And here's me thinking it was only the wife who doesn't understand me. [a joke, but I can't work them Smiley thingyy's] as the first comment was meant to be.

I was commenting on your detective work in identifying the gun in Beattie Park

no offence was intended, and yes! the sailor living near the yards and the park is [now] the most plausible

Hi,

The Chap is Royal Navy early to mid 30's, wearing his serge No2 Dress, no lanyard and should have a red badge on his right arm cannot see it in the repro. Certainly see his 'Tiddy Bow' on the cap.

Regards Charles

Hi Charles,

Aha...I see what you're talking about re: the bow. So, if he's RN, maybe this picture was not taken in Brooklyn after all. Any idea where these guns were in the UK?

-Daniel

G'day Dave

AS Dad useta say "You learn a little every day"


P02646.003 Date made: 7 December 1918 Physical description: Black & [no] white Summary: Rosyth, Firth of Forth, Scotland. 7 December 1918. A group portrait of officers and ship's company on the forward deck, or forecastle, of the battle cruiser HMAS Australia. The men crowd together on and above the deck, even sitting astride the spars and on the forward 12 inch turret. Note the animal mascot, slightly obscured by the officer in front of the white lifebuoy. Note also the midshipmen and sub-lieutenants in the front row who are all undergoing training. HMAS Australia served with the Grand Fleet of the Royal Navy and at the time of the surrender of the German High Sea Fleet on 21 November 1918 at the Firth of Forth she led one of the British lines escorting the enemy ships to the surrender area. HMAS Australia was then given the custody of the German battle cruiser, Hindenburg, until the Hindenburg was removed to await her fate at Scapa Flow. HMAS Australia sailed home in April 1919. (Donor E. C. Wilson) Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain Related conflict: First World War, 1914-1918[/color][color="#a8001a"]back add to workarea

Almost anywhere - they were a very popular trophy for towns that didn't get a tank (and some that did). However I wouln't write off the possibility that the man is an American sailor - there are photos of US sailors in the between the wars wearing uniforms much the same as RN - right down to the dark hat with a 'diddy bow'

"Almost anywhere - they were a very popular trophy for towns that didn't get a tank (and some that did). However I wouln't write off the possibility that the man is an American sailor - there are photos of US sailors in the between the wars wearing uniforms much the same as RN - right down to the dark hat with a 'diddy bow"

Have you got any to compare?

Regards Charles

Yes will post photos tomorrow

no badge , could he still be in training not yet qualified.

mike.

Wouldn`t a sailor near the yards be more likely to be from a ship which was in the yards?

If a ship was in for major work the crew would mostly be on leave or transfered to other vessels.

Well yeah, but I did say "now"... and yesterday's gone. I cannot yet agree with any of the positive identifications, but if theories etc aren't thrown in to the ring the jolly lad may have well as gone straight into the dumpster.

Today's theory is that Mary Johannsen who lived at 2345 west 94th street used to hang around that area, take pictures of all and sundry for sale. This bloke was too mean to pay the nickel for the print, so she kept it as a reminder not to trust a sailor of any description.

It took me a long while to 'see' the tid bow on the cap. Perhaps we are concentrating on the wrong end of Jack. The bell bottoms, and particularly the buttons at the front, might be a more distinguishing area of identification.

Some US Navy uniforms 1917-1940

http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/EM/_story/...es/wittbill.jpg
http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/EM/_story/...wittwedding.jpg
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ksbarber..._mark_usn_1.jpg
http://www.mortuary.af.mil/shared/media/ph...-5040D-0635.jpg
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2007/07...age3107874g.jpg
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/10158290.jpg?
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/10158290....6AC566F6B7943FA
http://www.militarymuseum.org/Resources/NavalMilitia9.JPG

Thank you for the trouble but I cannot identify anything the same as the chap in the photo.

Regards Charles

looks very royal navy to me, no badge is a question. also i keep seeing horizontal creases in the trowsers or is it just blotches in the photo.

centurion, in any photos i`v seen of u.s sailors , their black silk is always tied fairly high within itself, whereas u.k sailors are tied lower down with black tapes. [or white, if getting tied up!!] [married]. your fifth image would be the nearest i`d say to a british sailor, but as its only a head view it doesn`t tell much.

mike.

It took me a long while to 'see' the tid bow on the cap. Perhaps we are concentrating on the wrong end of Jack. The bell bottoms, and particularly the buttons at the front, might be a more distinguishing area of identification.


and it took a lot longer to find a pic of the 13 buttoned monsters that predated the more practicable quick release gear






http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=330365545496

and.... just in case anyone thinks the RAN did not have its lairs... get an eyefull of this matelot with his sheilagh at Circular Quay in 1942.

He is sporting his brand new ARMIDALE tally.

Unfortunately he was soon to be lost when she was sunk

Hello all

As an earlier poster has pointed out, the wheels have nine spokes. I believe that British gun wheels had an even number of spokes (the one in post #8 has 14, not 15) so the gun is probably a German trophy.

Ron