Hi,
If the Silver War Badge had to be applied for and was not automatically sent to those who qualified at what stage were the rolls compiled?
Were they compiled anyway, with the badge number recorded, and then the rolls consulted and the badge stamped and sent out on receipt of an application?
Also am I correct in assuming that SWB's to Irish men who lived in Southern Ireland would be a rarity? Given the political situation in Ireland at the time would it be less likely that discharged soldiers, who had returned home, would feel the need (or desire) to wear a SWB in public?
Cheers
John
Full Version: Silver War Badge
Anyone?
Or is this a stupid question
?
John
Or is this a stupid question
?John
No, not a stupid question at all. It got me to thinking about it.
If no one else is going to have a go, I'll give it a bash!
My records say that a badge would be issued, the early ones being posted out in September, 1916 and were posted out until 1920.
I would have thought that each time a batch of men, with the badge in numerical order on a Roll which was completed, the relevant department would send the badge out to the last known civilian address of the soldier. Of course, the reason for discharge was important. A badge would not be awarded and issued if the man had been discharged through having misdemeanors.
Cause of Discharge is shown under pra 392 KR 1912 XVI or 'No longer fit for military service'.
Discharge treatment details for soldiers with other reasons are laid out in Para 399-410 KR 1912, which includes 'lunatics' and other illnesses.
I have seen the SWB roll pages with only one man included, so I don't think the powers that be waited for so many to pile up. The Rolls were put there and as each page filled up or names stopped coming in, they stamped the badges and posted them off.
As for the men of Southern Ireland, they would have received them, whether they wanted to wear them or not. If they were awarded their medals, a badge would have been forthcoming. They served their King and country, just like all the others who joined up.
The badges came boxed, and with a certificate of issue.
Dick
If no one else is going to have a go, I'll give it a bash!
My records say that a badge would be issued, the early ones being posted out in September, 1916 and were posted out until 1920.
I would have thought that each time a batch of men, with the badge in numerical order on a Roll which was completed, the relevant department would send the badge out to the last known civilian address of the soldier. Of course, the reason for discharge was important. A badge would not be awarded and issued if the man had been discharged through having misdemeanors.
Cause of Discharge is shown under pra 392 KR 1912 XVI or 'No longer fit for military service'.
Discharge treatment details for soldiers with other reasons are laid out in Para 399-410 KR 1912, which includes 'lunatics' and other illnesses.
I have seen the SWB roll pages with only one man included, so I don't think the powers that be waited for so many to pile up. The Rolls were put there and as each page filled up or names stopped coming in, they stamped the badges and posted them off.
As for the men of Southern Ireland, they would have received them, whether they wanted to wear them or not. If they were awarded their medals, a badge would have been forthcoming. They served their King and country, just like all the others who joined up.
The badges came boxed, and with a certificate of issue.
Dick
Dick,
Thanks for the reply. Clears up a lot for me. I had thought that the SWB had to be applied for, I didn't think they were issued without first receiving an application. So the Southern Irish men got the badge as long as they qualified just like everyone else.
Cheers.
John
Thanks for the reply. Clears up a lot for me. I had thought that the SWB had to be applied for, I didn't think they were issued without first receiving an application. So the Southern Irish men got the badge as long as they qualified just like everyone else.
Cheers.
John
Hi
As far as I was aware the Silver War Badge had to be claimed/applied for before it was issued, so unless your Southern Irish men qualified and also applied for the badge they would not have received it. The cause of discharge did not have to be " No Longer Fit for Military Duty" it could be for many other things including termination of the soldiers period of engagement or for not being likely to become an efficient soldier etc etc ( see the long long trail )
Steve
As far as I was aware the Silver War Badge had to be claimed/applied for before it was issued, so unless your Southern Irish men qualified and also applied for the badge they would not have received it. The cause of discharge did not have to be " No Longer Fit for Military Duty" it could be for many other things including termination of the soldiers period of engagement or for not being likely to become an efficient soldier etc etc ( see the long long trail )
Steve
QUOTE (hmsk212 @ Oct 9 2009, 10:29 PM) 
As far as I was aware the Silver War Badge had to be claimed/applied for before it was issued, so unless your Southern Irish men qualified and also applied for the badge they would not have received it.
Steve,
Which is as I originally thought. But then Dick thought otherwise. Can anyone confirm? Did the SWB have to be applied for?
Cheers.
John
QUOTE (archangel9 @ Oct 9 2009, 10:36 PM)
Did the SWB have to be applied for?
John
I believe the answer, strictly speaking, is yes an application had to be made. However, the mechanics of that application are open to question, check this thread out and see what you think.... http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...ge++Application
Steve
I suppose the application could have gone along the lines of the 'award', 'granting' or 'issue' of the clasps, rosettes and bars.
It is something that I have not really considered, my information came from Howard Williamson.
Interesting thread.
DW
It is something that I have not really considered, my information came from Howard Williamson.
Interesting thread.
DW
QUOTE (SteveE @ Oct 9 2009, 11:18 PM)
Steve,
Went through that thread and its now clear.....as mud
Does appear alright that they had to be applied for so I am back to my original position and thoughts - that SWB's to Southern Ireland residents were and so are a rarity.
John
John,
Definately had to apply to receive your SWB. My English grandfather was badly wounded in 1916, losing a leg. His letter is in his service file.
There is no official form, just a small hand-written note from him.
It reads:
'Dear Sir, I should be very pleased if you would kindly forward me a discharge badge. Hoping you will oblige, yours sincerely J.Baugh late 10th York & Lancs, Regt No 14142'.
It went to the infantry records office at York. Received the 12th Oct 1917. His war badge is listed on the roll dated the 24th Oct 1917.
Not sure how he became aware of how to claim or from where but as the note he wrote is so brief then they must have had his medical record to check when he did apply.
It must have meant a lot to him as the last photo we have of him before he died in 1957 he is wearing it and according to my mother never went out without it. She didn't realise what it was, just thought it was a brooch.
No don't think Irish SWBs' are a particular rarity. As many of the badges were issued during and immediately after the war in early 1919, the political situation was unclear and contrary to popular myth Sinn Fein did not have a clear mandate following the 1918 election.
They in fact polled a minority of the full available votes, even allowing for the uncontested seats. This seems to indicate that the majority of the country at that time was not so keen to fully break the ties with England as is usually believed. Therefore its my thinking that most ex-servicemen would have had no problem wearing their medals, so i most men who were eligble would apply for their SWB badge anyway.
The question is how often would they wear them. When the political situation changed late 1919-early 1920 then perhaps it would not have been prudent to wear the badge except perhaps on Armistice day, when in the South of Ireland thousands of veterans would gather together. Although most ex-servicemen would be known in their community.
Looking at the SWB rolls i have it would appear you got your badge after you applied irrespective of when you were discharged. Therefore each new succesful applicant gets the next badge number along, in regimental sequence. On my grandfathers roll dated Oct 17 there is a guy discharged in June 16 and one March 16. This would reflect the date they requested their badges.
On the two pages i have in front of me only one man who got a badge did not serve overseas.
If this is correct then all the SWB roll pages of the Irish regiments indicate badges applied for and received. I would imagine there are hundres of them if not thousands.
I have a friend in Ireland who has dozens of medals and SWBs' he collected years ago to 'Southern' regiments when no-one was too interested and he could get them for next to nothing. They are like a piggy bank for him, dips in every so often to do swops with others.
Rob
Definately had to apply to receive your SWB. My English grandfather was badly wounded in 1916, losing a leg. His letter is in his service file.
There is no official form, just a small hand-written note from him.
It reads:
'Dear Sir, I should be very pleased if you would kindly forward me a discharge badge. Hoping you will oblige, yours sincerely J.Baugh late 10th York & Lancs, Regt No 14142'.
It went to the infantry records office at York. Received the 12th Oct 1917. His war badge is listed on the roll dated the 24th Oct 1917.
Not sure how he became aware of how to claim or from where but as the note he wrote is so brief then they must have had his medical record to check when he did apply.
It must have meant a lot to him as the last photo we have of him before he died in 1957 he is wearing it and according to my mother never went out without it. She didn't realise what it was, just thought it was a brooch.
No don't think Irish SWBs' are a particular rarity. As many of the badges were issued during and immediately after the war in early 1919, the political situation was unclear and contrary to popular myth Sinn Fein did not have a clear mandate following the 1918 election.
They in fact polled a minority of the full available votes, even allowing for the uncontested seats. This seems to indicate that the majority of the country at that time was not so keen to fully break the ties with England as is usually believed. Therefore its my thinking that most ex-servicemen would have had no problem wearing their medals, so i most men who were eligble would apply for their SWB badge anyway.
The question is how often would they wear them. When the political situation changed late 1919-early 1920 then perhaps it would not have been prudent to wear the badge except perhaps on Armistice day, when in the South of Ireland thousands of veterans would gather together. Although most ex-servicemen would be known in their community.
Looking at the SWB rolls i have it would appear you got your badge after you applied irrespective of when you were discharged. Therefore each new succesful applicant gets the next badge number along, in regimental sequence. On my grandfathers roll dated Oct 17 there is a guy discharged in June 16 and one March 16. This would reflect the date they requested their badges.
On the two pages i have in front of me only one man who got a badge did not serve overseas.
If this is correct then all the SWB roll pages of the Irish regiments indicate badges applied for and received. I would imagine there are hundres of them if not thousands.
I have a friend in Ireland who has dozens of medals and SWBs' he collected years ago to 'Southern' regiments when no-one was too interested and he could get them for next to nothing. They are like a piggy bank for him, dips in every so often to do swops with others.
Rob
Rob,
Cheers for your comprehensive reply. I have seen many of the rolls for Irish Regiments and there are probably thousands of them alright. If you are correct, and it certainly makes sense, then very many Southern Irish men applied for and received the SWB.
Your friend is probably sitting on a goldmine
Cheers.
John
Cheers for your comprehensive reply. I have seen many of the rolls for Irish Regiments and there are probably thousands of them alright. If you are correct, and it certainly makes sense, then very many Southern Irish men applied for and received the SWB.
Your friend is probably sitting on a goldmine
Cheers.
John
An interesting article on the 1918 Irish election that Rob mentioned.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/h1918.htm
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/h1918.htm
Murrough,
Thats the one i tend to use as a reference.
Can't understand why the IPP seemed to roll over and die for the 1918 election.
They say there was a limited electoral pact with Sinn Fein, yet in the couple of instances where they say there was a mistake and SF stood for the same seat, East Donegal and Down, the IPP thrashed them.
If there was a mistake why did SF not pull out at the last minute to make the field clear or did they expect the IPP to back down.
Which, if the case, proves the IPP were stronger than SF thought. And if SF alone had have stood for these seats how many votes would they have polled?
It seems the moderate Nationalist electorate were put in a no win [with what followed] situation. Either vote SF to get some form of independance or don't vote at all, in many constituancies, as there was no alternative.
Undoubtably many would have voted SF as opposed to not voting thereby giving SF inflated figures across the whole of the country.
The proportion of SF votes going to the IPP candidates would be minimal.
What opportunity did the Irishmen serving abroad have a chance to vote for a party of choice, very little i think.
Would they be up to speed with what was happening in the run up to the election?
I suggest on a straight vote SF would have gained no mandate for forming a government as they barely got it with the method they used.
Again if there was a pact why did they no take the IPP into government on a middle [ish] of the road coalition, which the British Government would have been more willing to talk with.
Interesting that the main players in the war of independance managed to be unopposed!
Rob
Thats the one i tend to use as a reference.
Can't understand why the IPP seemed to roll over and die for the 1918 election.
They say there was a limited electoral pact with Sinn Fein, yet in the couple of instances where they say there was a mistake and SF stood for the same seat, East Donegal and Down, the IPP thrashed them.
If there was a mistake why did SF not pull out at the last minute to make the field clear or did they expect the IPP to back down.
Which, if the case, proves the IPP were stronger than SF thought. And if SF alone had have stood for these seats how many votes would they have polled?
It seems the moderate Nationalist electorate were put in a no win [with what followed] situation. Either vote SF to get some form of independance or don't vote at all, in many constituancies, as there was no alternative.
Undoubtably many would have voted SF as opposed to not voting thereby giving SF inflated figures across the whole of the country.
The proportion of SF votes going to the IPP candidates would be minimal.
What opportunity did the Irishmen serving abroad have a chance to vote for a party of choice, very little i think.
Would they be up to speed with what was happening in the run up to the election?
I suggest on a straight vote SF would have gained no mandate for forming a government as they barely got it with the method they used.
Again if there was a pact why did they no take the IPP into government on a middle [ish] of the road coalition, which the British Government would have been more willing to talk with.
Interesting that the main players in the war of independance managed to be unopposed!
Rob
QUOTE (rob elliott @ Oct 10 2009, 07:45 PM)
Definately had to apply to receive your SWB. My English grandfather was badly wounded in 1916, losing a leg. His letter is in his service file.
There is no official form, just a small hand-written note from him.
There is no official form, just a small hand-written note from him.
Just received a 1915Trioto the Notts& Derbys Regtto a chap who was invalided out after losing a leg early in 1916. With the paperwork, service record and WSB came a copy of a similar letter asking to be sent his service badge.
Typical, they could have landed a week earlier.
I will amend my paperwork, too.
Good, interesting subject.
Cheers,
Dick
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