I am currently researching the history of naval cadets in the Royal Navy during the Great War & am at present, seeking details of Royal Naval College, Osborne to try and built a complete picture of how it appeared at the hight of its operation.
The imformation on this establishment is scarce to say the least, but i have tracked down several photos and with the help of detailed descriptions given in papers of the day have a good understanding of its layout.
Survey maps of the time have been blanked out for security perposes.
There are however several uncertian points,
1. The second gym/ward room built in 1907 for first term cadets, its location & name? (possibly Collingwood.)
The building is nearly the same size as 'Nelson' & built in the same style, I believe it may have been located at the oppisite end of the cadets hallway connecting the dorms to 'Nelson' & near the first term dormitorys
2. The location of the water tower, it was near 'Nelson" but unsure of its exact position? i think it may have been between 'Nelson' & "St.Vincent' above the classsrooms located here.
If anyone can help on this matter or in any other way i would be greatful for your assistance.
I am also doing a side project on naval schools operated during this period.

Hi leighbridge and welcome !

You've probably seen this already ... but I'll post just in case !!

http://www.trainingships.royalnavy.co.uk/osbornehistory.htm

Heres a couple of pictures ....

http://www.scientificamericanpast.com/Scie.../sci7201907.htm

http://www.bartiesworld.co.uk/postcards/os...ze/osborne8.jpg

Annie

Glad to see you here, Leighbridge, as we share an interest in Osborne. I have been hoping to locate the term rosters. Have you been able to do so? Have you toured the facility? Have you any term photos?

G'day Jesse

Osborne House in Geelong was the first site of the RAN College, the HQ for our J class subs and WW2 unit HQ's.
It now has a maritime museum, well worth a visit when down this way.
I have fond memories... but only because I umpired my first senior game of Aussie Rules Footy there in 1962.

Regards
Stormy

305342 : NORTH GEELONG, VIC. 1913-03-01.
GROUP PORTRAIT OF THE OFFICERS OF THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN NAVAL COLLEGE ON THE OCCASION OF ITS OFFICIAL OPENING AT OSBORNE HOUSE.
BACK ROW, LEFT TO RIGHT: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT D. J. WEEKS; ARTIFICER ENGINEER A. E. MARDEN; ASSISTANT PAYMASTER E. W. TRIVETT; S. C. SMITH BA; GUNNER T. T. DIX. FRONT ROW: ENGINEER LIEUTENANT W. A. MONK; F. G. BROWN BA BSC; CAPTAIN B. M. CHAMBERS; LIEUTENANT D. GRANT; REVEREND W. HALL BA. (NAVAL HISTORICAL COLLECTION). Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain Copyright holder: Copyright Expired Related unit: Royal Australian Naval College (Jervis Bay) Related place: Geelong

Hi Stormy, nice to hear from you, and great photo! That's the other, more Southern Osborne you're onto there, which has indeed a long and storied Naval list of men and ships. I wonder if anyone's done a book on that station.

Hi and thank you to all of you who replied.
First, the Osborne postcard is one i did not have, the large building to the left is the officers quarters and far off in the backgorund are the reading or 'gunnery rooms' used by cadets for study. behind the trees at the back of the officers quarters is 'Nelson' the large gym and ward room. the mast climbed by cadets is behind the trees to the right of the picture.
I have not visited the site of Osborne, only the old stables which were the classrooms, administration, masters offices & dinning hall & known as 'St Vincent as well as the Petty Officers quaters building & the cadets cricket pavillion are left.
Most of the other buildings around this site are from the sites time as a school for technical training established for/by the areo industry cira 1950 (see Saunders-Roe).
The second floor at the front of the stables was added for RNCO and the stair cases the cadets used to access the upper floor still exist. These are the same banisters all cadets slid down for the life of the college.

I know there are 5 cadets buried in the Whippingham churchyard, 3 of whom died during the influenza out break of 1916-17.
3 of these 5 cadets also attended school at Portsmouth (Lee-on-Solent.)
1, Walter John Lundie Smith, was a local boy from the Isle of Wight & died 3rd/ July/ 1920 aged 14 he died from blood poisoning.
The inscription on his tomb stone reads-
He pleased God & was beloved; He was taken away least wickedness should alter his understanding & deceit beguile his soul.

THe Royal Naval College Australia, Osborne, was indeed located in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. it was the precurser to the Royal Naval College now located in Sydney.
The Victorian (Australia) newspaper 'The Age' has an excellent pictorial record of this college if anyone is interested, (dont ask me to post a link i have know idea how to do that.)

I have seen the web site for naval training ships it is an excellent site. However, like all other sites, there is no imformation on RNCO.
You might like to know the trianing ship HMS Conway was one of the only naval schools to have its students pass into Osborne, 6 over the time of this college. 4 entered in 'Drake' term, January, 1914.
HMS Conway charged 25 Pounds a term catering to boys 8-14 yo and offered passing into Royal Naval College, Dartmouth with limited chance to enter Osborne.
When you consider that over this same time Cheam School in Surrey under the guidlence of Mr Tabor & with no naval instruction had 16 students pass into RNCO, you see the Admiralty was clearly not after crammers.
I have the passing in lists for cadets entering RNCO in the following years-
1903, non. 1912, Jan, Sept.
1904, May. 1913, Jan, May, Sept.
1905, Jan, Sept. 1914, Jan, May, Sept.
1906, non. 1916, Jan, May Sept.
1907, May, Sept. 1917, Jan, Sept.
1908, non. 1918, Jan, May, Sept.
1909, May. 1919, Jan,. May, Sept.
1910, Jan, Sept. 1920, Jan, May Sept.
1911, Jan, May, Sept. 1921, Jan. RNCO Closed May.
I am extreamlly interested in finding January 1909. This is the 'Grenville' term HRH the Duke of York Prince Albert (later King George) joined.
It is also the same term George Archer Shee entered (He of the five shilling note!).
I am also after May, 1912. this is the term most of those who died 24th Sept, 1914, aka the sinking of the 3 cruisers came from.

I have 3 postcard pictures of RNCO & have found 8 photos. Also pictures of Cowes and the Medina during this time as well as the ship yards.
there are dozens of photos of the college in colectors hands and in personal papers held by other colleges & libraries but are very hard to access.
The London Illustrated Times has several excellent pictures but of poor quality of the 1st cadets embarking for RNCO in 1903 with Admiral Fisher as well as one of HMS Racer, the colleges 60 ft sloop. HMS Racer was also RNCO's Royal Navy ship name.
The public records office, Kew, London, also has photos.

If anyone has more imformation on RNCO in would be extremely greatful.
I still require the location of the second gym and water tower.
with thanks to all.

PS I have several photos of the main foyer of the Ripley Building (Admiralty House) in them can be seen a statue of Lord Admiral Nelson on a plynth and to the right a fire place with an honour roll over it.
does anyone know what the inscription says beneath Lord Nelson and what is on the honour roll?

Hello Leighbridge,

Further to your side-remarks concerning HMS Conway, please remember that the aim of this particular nautical training school was first and foremost to turn out officers equipped for service in the British merchant navy. Unlike Osborne, Conway was not an official Royal Navy establishment – in fact the title ‘HMS Conway’ was only an honorary distinction conferred on the school by Queen Victoria, thus allowing its cadets to wear RNR uniforms.

Many hundreds/thousands of old Conways served with distinction in the mercantile marine at a time when the British Merchant Navy was by far the largest in the world. On leaving Conway (parallel to their civilian employment) a large proportion of Conway cadets voluntarily accepted commissions in the Royal Naval Reserve and on the outbreak of hostilities in 1914 they went on to serve with great distinction under the white ensign.



Surely it's no surprise that relatively few Conway cadets choose to become regular RN officers (switching from Conway to Osbourne) since if it had always been their original intention to serve in the RN then these young men would have been better off joining Osbourne at the start, rather than Conway first.

Regards,
Michael ('Egypt')

George Archer-Shee - what an awful lot happened to him in his short life - RIP George

After his expulsion from Osborne, Archer-Shee returned to Stonyhurst College (where he had been educated before going to Osborne). He went to the United States to work, but returned home to enlist in the Army at the start of World War I. He was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the First Batallion, the South Staffordshire Regiment, and was killed at the First Battle of Ypres in 1914.

In Memory of
Lieutenant GEORGE ARCHER-SHEE

3rd Bn., South Staffordshire Regiment
who died age 19
on 31 October 1914
Studied at Stonyhurst College and Royal Naval College, Osborne. Was the subject of Terence Rattigan's play "The Winslow Boy".

Remembered with honour
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Leighbridge may be inerested in picking up a copy of The School That Jack Built by Geoffrey Haskins
Published by Arcturus Press, ISBN 0907322 71 9
Copies available from internet providers at under a fiver.
It's the story of the Royal Naval College Osborne 1903 - 1923 where apparently many Conway cadets who were interested in pursuing Royal Navy careers went as a result of a special scheme of study (in their 6th and final Term).
27 pages, 11 full page illustrations.
Rgds,
Michael
PS Contrary to what has been said earlier, HMS Conway never accepted cadets as young as 8. The earliest a boy joined was 13 and the usual age was 14 - remaining there for two years before heading off to sea (i.e. similar age range to that of RNC Osborne cadets).

My intention of mentioning HMS Conway was in no way meant to be taken as a insult or snub at this fine institution.

HMS Conway at the time stated it had limited acceptance to RNCO, but was able to gain addmitance to RNCD as well as the RNR.

The only intention here which i failed to mention was that at this time, 'parents' were desperate that their sons entering the navy were able to attian executive officer rank & by having their sons attend RNCO first then RNCD this was seen as the best chance for this to happen.

It was 'parents' who saw HMSC as a quick way to cram their sons for entry to RNCO.

As i stated, HMSC said themselves they could attain entry for boys to RNCD but only a few would be accepted at RNCO.

My only point from this was to show how the Admiralty were adamant they would not accept crammers (although this position changed as the war progressed).

Your point on joining RNCO first rather than HMSC is not correct, the age of intake at this time for RNCO was between 13 years 4 months & 13 years 8 months, this meant boys had to attend other schools beforre applying to join RNCO.

It should be noted that students from other schools who failed to enter RNCO went to HMSC to attian entry to RNCD.

It should also be noted that students attending HMSC wore shorts all year round rather than long pants, a sign that the school was not attached to the Royal Navy. Only naval schools supported or connected to the Royal Navy allowed students to wear long pants.

At this time in history boys were required to wear knickerboxers in winter, shorts in summer until their father permited them to wear long pants.
Amazingly, this was a small reason for boys wanting to enter RNCO, they would be allowed to wear long trousers.

It was also why those unable to afford the fees at RNCO or HMSC went to other RN training schools to become boy ratings as they also could wear long pants.
It sounds strange to us in these modern times but was a large part of a boys desire to attend certain schools.

Many letters home from cadets at RN schools asked their parents to buy them trousers to wear on their holidays as most cadets tended to wear their cadet uniforms on holiday rather than knickerboxers.

HRH Prince Edward of Wales & Prince's Albert & George spent all thier time while home from RNCO in cadet uniform knowing if they didnt they would have to wear knickerboxers.

Students from HMSC were accepted into the Merchant Marine, the course of training on HMSC counted as 1 years sea duty.
Most of those who entered the merchant navy ended up in the Royal Navy as they were transferred at the wars begining under the direction of the First Lord as the loss of Naval Officers was already known to be higher than the ability to train cadets.

This is why all cadets from RNCD were sent to sea at the end of 1914 as sea cadets. then at the start of 1915 the RNCO 5th term cadets were sent to RNCD as well as 6th term cadets it enabled the intake at RNCO to be raised to over 100 cadets a term.

The First Lord of the Admiralty Churchill stated to Parliment at the end of 1914 that the loss of British war ships would be held in check as the amount of ships being built would outpace the losses but the Admiralty knew that no matter how many ships werre built, it would be difficult to find officers to man them.

The problem for the Ravy Navy as well as the German's at this time was that ships built before 1906 on being hit below the water line (even with 1 hit) had a tendancy to roll over rather than sink upright this led to most ships crew as well as the bulk of its officers being trapped below the water line unable to escape.
This was one of the reasons the First Sea Lord Admiral Fisher was removing older ships from service as fast as he could.

The problem with ships during these years was balance or as it is known 'Metacentric Height', in 1870 HMS Captian while under sea trials in the Atlantic, vanished over night with the loss of her entire crew.
HMS Lord Warden reported that the ship had been stationed of her stern in the evening and by morning she had vanished.
It was believed she had listed while in heavy S.W. seas and unable to roll back, instead, rolled over.

Once again, I appologise to anyone who was offended by my remarks, there was no intention to demean or cast dispertions on those attending HMS Conway or any other naval school.

Click to view attachment

Speaking as a former Conway cadet myself - no offence taken.
And leaving aside all remarks concerning knickerbokers and difficiencies in naval ship construction, and in an effort to steer the subject back towards the topic of the original thread, I would advise as follows:

1. Special Royal Naval College Cadetships were offered to a maximum of six HMS Conway cadets per annum (two per term) to enter Dartmouth. Under this arrangement with the Admiralty, time on 'Conway' counted as time at the RNC Osborne. Same age regulations applied as for Osborne cadets, but Conway cadets were required to have studied an Admiralty approved syllabus. This meant that they had to attend extra classes whilst still on the Conway and furthermore they were also required to sit an entry examination (held at RNC Osborne), to ensure that any Conway entrants to Dartmouth were of equivalent standard to Osborne cadets. I also discovered that during the war years the number of Conway RN cadetships to Dartmouth was increased to 5 per term. And futhermore during the period of the Great War some 250 HMS Conway cadets passed directly from the Conway into the fleet (holding temporary RNR commissions rather than being regular RN officers).

2. Plenty of contemporary photographic evidence to show that Conway cadets back then did indeed wear Naval uniforms (as was the case in my time too - see above image, circa 1910).

3. Notable former Conway Cadets of WW1 vintage include Capt. Unwin VC (River Clyde), Lt. Bonner VC (Dunraven), A/Col. PE Bent VC (9th Bn Leicester Reg.) and Capt. HD King, CO Drake Bn RND.

4. Best of luck to Leighbridge with your RNC Osborne research - and I may have some interesting stuff to forward you soonest the moderators will allow you receive PM's.

Best regards,
Michael

Thank you for the reply & imformation.

Although I still dont understand you contiually reffering me to Conway cadetships to RNCD.

I believe this is what I said in my original post, that Conway offered acess to RNCD & the RNR, WITH LIMITED ACCESS TO RNCO, I did not imply other.

Further, you also seem to be of the belief in your original reply that I inferred that HMSC was a naval school run by the RN, this i did not.

I am providing a link to a picture of Conway cadets and of the summer uniform i refer (hope it works if not, fiddle around with the address, you'll find it).

With due respect to any other matter I have no interest in the cadets passing into RNCD from other schools (naval or other) or the history of either RNCD or HMSC.

I am only interested in cadets who past into "ROYAL NAVAL COLLEGE, OSBORNE."

There is more than enough imformation in regard to Royal Naval College, Dartmouth.

I still inform you that parents of this time sent their sons to HMSC to cram for entrance to RNCO, the Admiralty at the time knew this & this is why HMSC offered limited places to RNCO.

HMSC advertised this fact in newspapers of the time, may i point you to 'The Times' (London) data base for this information and the original HMSC adds for student placement.

I also find your dismissive remarks toward anything else I have said to be rude and offensive and would appreciate that if you wish to put your point of view across to me, please do so in a respectful manner.

Further, & again with all due respect, please respect my wishes that the ONLY imformation I am seeking & require in this forum is the location of the second gym at RNCO and the location of the water tower.

I have no interest whatsoever in any other school, forum, subject or comment(s).

With thanks to you & others who have replied & with respect, I shall not reply again to anything other the the imformation required.

Thank you.


http://www.trainingships.royalnavy.co.uk/Conway.htm

Wow, talk about being thin skinned! My sincere apologies if I have offended you.

And there was me volunteering to send you some seriously interesting primary source material regarding RNC Osborne - obviously I won't bother now.

Good luck with your 'research'.

Hahaha, oh boy... And I had such high hopes for you, leighbridge.