I'm looking for map reference 28. I. 7a. 5.3. given to me by CWGC as the location of bodies from my grandfather's unit who were kia on the 5th July 1917. None of the maps I have clearly show this location, anyone have a map showing this location please?

John

John

I think this is what you are after - by the canal West of Ypres. Which makes me think it must have been a shell that did the damage?

Roger

Click to view attachment

Roger, many thanks for your help, I went back to the CWGC to question the location, their records show 4 known members of the 1/17th London, Riflemen Fuller, Barton, Lorke & Roff one Rifle Brigade L'Cpl C Kemp all listed as kia on 5th July 1917 and one RE Sapper Bagley kia 4/7/17 taken from this location on 23rd August 1920 to New Irish Farm Cemetery. CWGC cannot say if there were others taken from this location to other cemeteries. The oddity is that the war diary clearly gives the unit's location as left sector north of the Ypres Comenies Canal which begs the question of what were the bodies doing by the canal west of Ypres? Of course the removal in 1920 might not have been the first time these bodies were relocated but it does to me seem a bit odd.
Again, many thanks for your help.
John

John

No problem. Those with more knowledge than us might be able to provide the answer, but looking at the map, the location could arguably called the "north" side of the canal as it is on a bend just before the canal heads due South.

Roger

There was a great deal of German shelling at the time. They knew that the British would attack at some time and laid down barrages of HE and Gas along the canal line. Not far from Essex farm an ammunition dump was hit.
It does seem odd though about the location of the first graves.

SteveM

Roger, thanks for the thought but I have a HQ reference as 28SW I.35a.4.1 which puts it not far from Larch Wood and Hill 60 which is the area on which I've been concentrating. You had me going there for a moment thinking I'd worn out my shoes (and probably my wife) walking over the wrong bit of ground!
Steve I can understand your thinking about shelling but for bodies to be clearly identified by the Graves Registration Section on 23rd August 1920 probably means that they were in reasonable condition or that they had clear markers. Still made it a job I wouldn't have been keen to carry out - those guys deserved medals.

John

John
I have a number of my men who were caught up in the shelling and died of shrapnel wounds on the way to the aid post.
It could be that this happened to your men. Might be worth looking for an Aid post or similar in the area of burial.
Steve

Another suggestion - they could have been killed in the position you know their unit to have been and carried back for burial to the area indicated by the CWGC. That wouldn't have been unusual. There are many men buried at Vlamertinghe who were killed in the front line at Wieltje. The 55th Division had a policy of bringing the dead back to be buried at Vlamertinghe if it was possible.

Ken

I think it might be useful to put out a new topic as well to see if anyone has knowledge of the site from which the CWGC records show these men were found. My original topic reference may not be sufficiently if I'm looking for an aid post or a small burial site.
Ironically, recently we parked at the burial site because it is now part of an edge of town supermarket area and we did some shopping before going on to see New Irish Farm Cemetery - of course we didn't know the significance at the time.
Thanks for all your help and interest, I'd still like any additional WW1 maps of the area as I don't have any of this sector.
John

Isn't that roughly the area where Essex Farm Cemetary lies now? Essex Farm was used as a advanced dressing station until August 1917. It is well within the realm of possibility that this was their destination?

Jon

Thanks, I'll have a look at Essex Farm, it can't be that far away

John

Jon,
Thanks for the idea but I think Essex Farm is too far off route. From the 1/17th London war diary three of the men were shown as KIA in the Hill 60 /Ravine area SE or Ypres and the 177 RE tunnellers were at Railway Wood due E of Ypres. There might be some sense in those from Hill 60 are being there if the railway was still operational as it runs from Hill 60 NW to the point of the recorded burial until turning sharp W towards Poperinge.
John

Unless I am mistaken this is the scenario as it stands now. Your G-father served with the 1/17 Lond. Reg., which according to their war diary were in the Hill 60/Ravine area in and around the 4/5 of July 1917. Despite this, bodies from your g-father's unit were found in the vicinity of 28. I. 7a. 5.3, which is depicted in John's map post. Are you looking for reasons why they would be so far from their unit?

One possible scenario is that they were picking up rations or other items from a nearby dump when they were killed and the bodies were just buried near where they fell. This period would have been the run-up to 3rd Ypres and there would have been considerable activity carrying supplies to the front. It is possible that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Jon

Jon,
The first paragraph above is correct however the War Diary notes show that the rations etc. were close to Woodcote House which is between Shrapnel Corner and Bedford Farm. I have, however just located a map of the period that clearly shows the railway from alongside Hill 60, past Manor Farm, Transport Farm (where there was an aid post), crossing the road at Shrapnel Corner then passing just to the west of Ypres before turning sharp west close to the burial site. This map also shows a further railway line coming from the East of Ypres, probably passing close to, as the name suggests, Railway Wood where 177 Tunneling Co. RE were and Sapper Bagley of 177 was also found at this burial location. This line joins the other line just south of Ypres station. I suspect that Ken Lees has the closest likely answer. I'll try to find out if the railway was operational and if bodies may have been sent for burial by this method.
John