An interesting debate on this topic had tended to highjack Martin Elliget's original thread in War in the Air., so I shall continue the debate here, hoping to see what Per Ardua and Centurion (and others) think of the following.

Centurion had quoted some rather ancient rules from the Navy List of 1879, which were contradicted by Per Ardua. My contribution comes from the Navy List of July 1915, which I think has more application to the era under discussion. NL 1915 has information, named as this topic title, which states:-

Military Branch (i.e. excluding Medics, Pussers, Schoolies, etc)

Lieutenant Commanders, Squadron Commanders [RNAS] (in command), ... equivalent to Army Majors.
Lieutenants , Flight Lieutenants [RNAS], ... equivalent to Army Captains.
Sub-Lieutenants, Flight Sub-Lieutenants [RNAS], ... equivalent to Army Lieutenants.
Chief Gunners, Chief Boatswains, Commissioned Telegraphists, ... equivalent to Army Second Lieutenants.

The only caveats to these are for RM officers when embarked, when they rank one higher: Major RM = Commander RN; Captain RM = Lieutenant Commander RN, etc

There are also two further wrinkles for certain RNAS offficers:
1. Squadron Commanders [RNAS] (not in command) rank with Lieutenants RN of over 4 years seniority (but senior to all Flight Commanders [RNAS]) [i.e. = Army Captain]. On attaining 8 years seniority in the relative rank of Lieutenant RN they rank with Lieutenant Commanders [i.e. as if they were in command and = Army Major].

2. Flight Commanders [RNAS] rank with Lieutenants RN of over 4 years seniority [and, therefore = Army Captain].

Thank you Horatio2 for opening this as a separate thread, I'm surprised that it hasn't received any response.

Another aspect of the tangent in the previous thread was what happened to RNAS when the RAF was formed. From my research it would appear that their officers were demoted.

Thats as may be, but a Commander RN to this day has scrambled egg on his peak ..... a Wing Commander has to do without.

There is the complication of the rank of Midshipman, who carried out an officer's duties, but was not considered a commisiooned officer. The rasnk is still in use today in the Royal Navy and is given to the 18 and 19 year-olds at BRNC, who have not been to university. They continue to serve in the rank for a year after passing out of Dartmouth.

Royal Marine 2Lts also exists today, but it is a probationary rank given to those undergoing officer training and are the equivalent of the Sandhurst officer cadet. Off the top of my head I am not sure that the rank existed in WW1.

As for Grumpy's comment, Commders RN have scrambled egg because of being the Senior Service; Wingcos are decidely in the Junior Service. Plase also note that Army Lt Cols do not have scrambled egg, but they don't complain about it. (I'm being flippant).

Charles M

Why do RM officers carry a rank higher when embarked please. That one has me tossed.

David

Royal Marine 2Lts also exists today, but it is a probationary rank given to those undergoing officer training and are the equivalent of the Sandhurst officer cadet. Off the top of my head I am not sure that the rank existed in WW1.

Charles

re your query above on 2nd Lieut.s RMLI
A quick check of Blumberg's history and his Appendices for the Dardanelles chapter
shows that, while they may perhaps have been under-represented, there were nevertheless officers of that rank on active service at that time:
eg; Jermain (KiA) Unwin & Woolley (wounded) Alcock, Chater & Conybeare (MiD)

regards
Michael

Charles, I don't think so. My theory is that Commanders RN and their eggs are descended from the time that, below a ship that rated a Post Captain in command, were vessels commanded by Lieutenants appointed Commander, where Commander was not a rank but the appointment, held during the commission of the ship. Such commanders wore one shoulder board [a 'swab'], on the shoulder opposite the 'Post Captain of less than 3 years seniority'.
On a ship of Post status, there was no rank or appointment above 1st Lieutenant.

So, what more natural than this 'command' function should take unto itself the scrambled egg of the Captain.

None of which explains why a Wing Commander RAF [who indeed 'commands' things, including Wings] should be denied the eggs.

This used to irk me until the happy day my RAFVR Dormant Commission was upped to scrambled egg level! After which the arrangement was seen to be right and proper!

Mike

Thank you for the clarification on 2Lts RM.

Grumpy

Yes, your theory on Commanders RN makes sense.

Charles M

Maybe it was because the junior service took so long to catch up.

Several appear on the 1914 Star roll.

The Official List of rank equivalents is detailed in King's Regulation 1767;

["The King's Regulations and Orders for the Army, 1912, Incorporating Army Orders up to 1st August 1914."]

However, the Royal Marines are not included in the list.

M

Welcome M to the forum ,great post overall. I have thought that myself regards the rank level especially as to RAF as in WW2 ok its an example but a Fl Lt was in charge of a Section, a Sqn Leader in charge of a Flight, a Wing Commander in Charge of a Squadron ,and yes a Group Captain in charge of a wing .Air commodore/AVM in charge of a Group .These all have exceptions but generally.All especailly the top ranks the name of the rank seems to be up one from what the man was in charge of ? This is just an observation .I cant be the only one to think when it comes down to it a Fl/Lt was really in charge of that one Aircraft compared to a destroyer in the navy 200 men about or a company of 200 ish men in the army using the other ranks as a comparison.
Some of the answer ?? Just my thought all the forces did their bit
MC

I'm not sure what you are on about MC, maybe you are talking about bomber squadrons viz flghter squadrons. In a fighter squadron the fl/Lt was in charge of a flight
(maybe 3 a/c) the sq/ldr was in charge of the squadron and the wing cmdr in charge of the wing 3 or more squadrons.
I find it hard to compare, in the navy a Lieut/Cmdr could be in charge of a Frigate of approx 160 - 180 men which would be the equivalent to a sqdn ldr.
I think it boils down to the service structure and the requirements imposed upon them.
As for fruit salad if the navy wants let the navy get. Surely the airforce could have done the same if they wished.
David

Yes bomber squadrons in particular,Over the years i have read various books (we all have !!) re ww2 operations RAF and many times a Wing Commander was in charge of a SQN and so on up and down the units sizes.Good point about the if others had really wanted the gold braid on their peak they would have gotten it .
MC