On the BBC 'one show' last night they displayed posters published in 1916 which appealed for the collection of horse chestnuts for the war effort. Apparently many thousand of tons where sent in and they fermented down in huge vats to provide acetone. This was added to gun powder and bullets from this mixture reduced the smoke at the rifle barrel and increased the penetration of the missile. Examples of the improvement in the bullets were shown on the programme.
This is the first time I have heard of this national appeal and I wondered if it had been mentioned on the forum.
Ron Ward
Full Version: Horse Chestnuts
The local school here at Ryde collect 3/4 of a ton horse chestnuts for munition purposes in 1917.
T8
Did you also hear a similar piece on Radio Solent earlier in the week ? It came from a reporter and the same local guy who was on the One Show last night,from the site at Holton Heath, Dorset.
I am wondering what brought it up,twice in the same week,or is it just as it is "conker" season ?
Sotonmate
Did you also hear a similar piece on Radio Solent earlier in the week ? It came from a reporter and the same local guy who was on the One Show last night,from the site at Holton Heath, Dorset.
I am wondering what brought it up,twice in the same week,or is it just as it is "conker" season ?
Sotonmate
Explosive conkers....
Don't breathe a word to Elfin Safety.
Don't breathe a word to Elfin Safety.
QUOTE (fred holling @ Oct 24 2009, 12:03 PM) 
On the BBC 'one show' last night they displayed posters published in 1916 which appealed for the collection of horse chestnuts for the war effort. Apparently many thousand of tons where sent in and they fermented down in huge vats to provide acetone. This was added to gun powder and bullets from this mixture reduced the smoke at the rifle barrel and increased the penetration of the missile. Examples of the improvement in the bullets were shown on the programme.
This is the first time I have heard of this national appeal and I wondered if it had been mentioned on the forum.
This is the first time I have heard of this national appeal and I wondered if it had been mentioned on the forum.
It was not added to gun powder but used to produce Cordite (which had replaced gun powder as the propellant for bullets) and also gun cotton. The army and navy had separate sources for production for Cordite - both of which used horse chestnuts at one time - the navy more successfully I believe as they took greater care over the storage of the nuts. We have had something on this before - very much an old chestnut!
A little OT, but 1939-45 Canadian schoolchildren were sent to collect milkweed pods. The contents were used to produce gas mask filters. I wonder if they did it 1914-18 as well?
Sphagnum moss was certainly collected during the Great War for use in wound dressings.
Did you also hear a similar piece on Radio Solent earlier in the week ? It came from a reporter and the same local guy who was on the One Show last night,from the site at Holton Heath, Dorset.
I am wondering what brought it up,twice in the same week,or is it just as it is "conker" season ?
Soton me old china, No I am afraid I missed that. I suspect he was getting good mileage from the same material, but as you say t'is conker season.
BTW I used to live in Obelisk Road Woolston, when I was a'learning of my trade down at VT's, the floating bridge was still running then.
Gareth
I am wondering what brought it up,twice in the same week,or is it just as it is "conker" season ?
Soton me old china, No I am afraid I missed that. I suspect he was getting good mileage from the same material, but as you say t'is conker season.
BTW I used to live in Obelisk Road Woolston, when I was a'learning of my trade down at VT's, the floating bridge was still running then.
Gareth
QUOTE (Michael Johnson @ Oct 24 2009, 02:35 PM)
A little OT, but 1939-45 Canadian schoolchildren were sent to collect milkweed pods. The contents were used to produce gas mask filters. I wonder if they did it 1914-18 as well?
In WW1 peach pits and other kinds of nuts were collected to be turned into charcoal for gas mask filters. The Boy Scouts were active in this in Britain, America and Canada although I think the nuts varied (not so many peach pits in Britain)
Many thanks to all, especially siege gunner and centurion for info, no doubt the conker season led to the reappearance of this on the BBC. The national appeal intrigued me with the mystery behind the wartime need.
In Germany acorns were harvested as a component in ersatz coffee.
Bad year for them: my nuts are rather small and dry and shrivelled: a lot of poorly trees around too.
QUOTE (GRUMPY @ Oct 24 2009, 03:28 PM)
...my nuts are rather small and dry and shrivelled...
According to Lloyd George, the factories making explosives and ammunition were originally supplied with some of the necessary chemicals by a method which produced the chemical from the distillation of wood. This was apparently a slow and cumbersome process, but it met the needs of the peacetime army.
When he was became the Minister of Munitions, he asked Professor Weizmann from Manchester University to seek a faster and more efficient method of producing the required chemical. A few weeks later a method was found using grain - especially maize - instead of wood. By 1917 all kinds of grain were in short supply and Lloyd George again sought Professor Weizmann's help. This time the answer was to substitute horse chestnuts for maize; hence the organisation of a national conker collection.
Apparently no one was quite sure exactly which part of Europe Professor Weizmann came from, but everyone was far too polite to ask.
As already stated the work was carried out by schoolchildren. In Holmfirth the Headmaster explained it in a letter to the Holmfirth Express, thus:
“Dear Sir,- A few days ago the head teachers of the district received from the Board of Education a circular headed, ‘Collection of Horse Chestnuts,' and it contained therein an appeal for the support of the teachers and children in making such a collection.
“Now, to my mind, this ingathering cannot be effectively accomplished without the co-operation of the farmers and the landowners of the district, and I would, Sir, with your kind concession, make a request, through the medium of your paper, to the landowners, that they grant permission to the children to gather the nuts from their lands.
“An extract from the circular may convince them of the absolute necessity for such a collection being made. It reads: ‘A considerable quantity of grain is at present being used in certain industrial processes which are essential to the prosecution of the war. In order to set this grain free for human consumption, experiments have been made to discover a substitute which could be utilised for the industrial processes concerned, and a substitute suitable in every respect has been found in the horse chestnut. The experiments prove that for every ton of horse chestnuts which are harvested, half a ton of grain can be saved for human consumption. The horse chestnut, therefore, though itself totally unfit for food, can be utilised indirectly to increase the nations food supply. It is therefore urgently necessary that this years crop of horse chestnuts should be harvested. In present circumstances it is felt that school children could give most valuable assistance in collecting the chestnuts, and by so doing make a definite contribution to national efficiency’.
“As regards the organisation of my school, I propose arranging groups of six children to work a particular area. The captain of each group will be provided with a covering letter, signed by me, authorising the collection of the chestnuts, and in that way occupiers of land will be assured that the children are bone fide collectors and not trespassers. Should any proprietary master object to the plan he can kindly communicate with me, and I will advise the group working in his particular area not to visit the land in his possession. I am, yours faithfully, H. Hepworth. St. John’s Church School, Holmfirth, Aug. 27th, 1917.”
Tony.
When he was became the Minister of Munitions, he asked Professor Weizmann from Manchester University to seek a faster and more efficient method of producing the required chemical. A few weeks later a method was found using grain - especially maize - instead of wood. By 1917 all kinds of grain were in short supply and Lloyd George again sought Professor Weizmann's help. This time the answer was to substitute horse chestnuts for maize; hence the organisation of a national conker collection.
Apparently no one was quite sure exactly which part of Europe Professor Weizmann came from, but everyone was far too polite to ask.
As already stated the work was carried out by schoolchildren. In Holmfirth the Headmaster explained it in a letter to the Holmfirth Express, thus:
“Dear Sir,- A few days ago the head teachers of the district received from the Board of Education a circular headed, ‘Collection of Horse Chestnuts,' and it contained therein an appeal for the support of the teachers and children in making such a collection.
“Now, to my mind, this ingathering cannot be effectively accomplished without the co-operation of the farmers and the landowners of the district, and I would, Sir, with your kind concession, make a request, through the medium of your paper, to the landowners, that they grant permission to the children to gather the nuts from their lands.
“An extract from the circular may convince them of the absolute necessity for such a collection being made. It reads: ‘A considerable quantity of grain is at present being used in certain industrial processes which are essential to the prosecution of the war. In order to set this grain free for human consumption, experiments have been made to discover a substitute which could be utilised for the industrial processes concerned, and a substitute suitable in every respect has been found in the horse chestnut. The experiments prove that for every ton of horse chestnuts which are harvested, half a ton of grain can be saved for human consumption. The horse chestnut, therefore, though itself totally unfit for food, can be utilised indirectly to increase the nations food supply. It is therefore urgently necessary that this years crop of horse chestnuts should be harvested. In present circumstances it is felt that school children could give most valuable assistance in collecting the chestnuts, and by so doing make a definite contribution to national efficiency’.
“As regards the organisation of my school, I propose arranging groups of six children to work a particular area. The captain of each group will be provided with a covering letter, signed by me, authorising the collection of the chestnuts, and in that way occupiers of land will be assured that the children are bone fide collectors and not trespassers. Should any proprietary master object to the plan he can kindly communicate with me, and I will advise the group working in his particular area not to visit the land in his possession. I am, yours faithfully, H. Hepworth. St. John’s Church School, Holmfirth, Aug. 27th, 1917.”
Tony.
The accounts I've seen start the process earlier than WW1 with a committee investigating Weizmann's suggestions and agreeing on a maize based process - not because the wood based approach was too slow but because given shortages of suitable wood it was too expensive. As most of the maize used was imported from the USA unrestricted submarine warfare made the supply of maize somewhat problematic so chestnuts were substituted. By the time the bugs were sorted out the convoy system (and the USA's entry into the war) meant that maize deliveries were more reliable and in any case America could supply Britain with acetone or even manufacture cordite.
PS I'd take any account of LLG's with most of the run off from the Dead Sea
BTW one of Prof Weizmann's predecessors in the bio chemistry chair at Owens (Man Uni) was a Prof Frankenstein
PS I'd take any account of LLG's with most of the run off from the Dead Sea
BTW one of Prof Weizmann's predecessors in the bio chemistry chair at Owens (Man Uni) was a Prof Frankenstein
Gareth
Ghost town now,the area of VT's old shipyard at Woolston. You may have been following the arguments going on about the extent and density of the re-development of the waterfront there. Those silent pubs where once............ no shrivelled nuts there now.
Sotonmate
Ghost town now,the area of VT's old shipyard at Woolston. You may have been following the arguments going on about the extent and density of the re-development of the waterfront there. Those silent pubs where once............ no shrivelled nuts there now.
Sotonmate
From an article by Michael Sutton (December 2002 issue of Chemistry in Britain)
In 1904 he [Chiam Weizmann] settled in Manchester, where W. H. Perkin headed an internationally famous organic chemistry laboratory. Weizmann became a research fellow in 1905, and senior lecturer from 1907. … … Weizmann supplemented his academic income by acting as a consultant to local industrialists, and patenting further chemical discoveries. He also investigated the possibility of using fermentation to produce industrially useful substances, noting in 1912 that the bacterium Clostridium acetobutylicum converted starch to a mixture of ethanol, acetone, and butyl alcohol. The process seemed of no commercial value – until the guns began firing in 1914.
Old-fashioned gunpowder produced heavy smoke, preventing gunners from seeing their targets clearly, while betraying their own position to the enemy. By the late 19th century, several smokeless explosives were available, but the favoured propellant for rifle bullets and artillery projectiles was cordite. To produce it, a mixture of guncotton (cellulose nitrate) and nitroglycerine was made into a paste with acetone and petroleum jelly, and extruded through a die. Before 1914, the acetone required was obtained through the destructive distillation of wood. The supply was inadequate for wartime needs, and by 1915 Britain’s generals were complaining of serious shell shortages, ultimately due to the lack of acetone for making cordite. Then Weizmann moved into the spotlight.
In 1914, Weizmann had offered his services to the government, but received no response. However, his fellow-Mancunian C. P. Scott knew Lloyd George, who headed the newly created Ministry of Munitions from May 1915. They met on 16 June, and Scott noted in his diary: ‘At lunch told him a good deal about Dr Weizmann. He seemed interested, and took me afterwards to see Dr Addison at the Munitions Office’.
Weizmann was summoned to London for meetings with Lloyd George and Winston Churchill (who, as First Lord of the Admiralty, was also concerned about the shell shortage). They obtained laboratory facilities for Weizmann at the Lister Institute, and access to industrial plant in Nicholson’s gin distillery at Bow. Soon, full-scale acetone production began at the Navy’s cordite factory at Poole, and even larger facilities were established in Canada, where corn was plentiful. (By 1917 Britain was very short of grain, and the Ministry of Munitions asked schoolchildren to collect horse chestnuts, so that starch could be extracted from them to make acetone.) After another lunch with Lloyd George on 23 March 1916, Scott wrote: "I had at the outside 5 minutes to speak to him about Weizmann who is much the most essential man in his department, who has worked so far practically for nothing, whose innovative genius has not only saved the country 9 or 10 millions in money, but has secured it essential munitions in quantities otherwise unobtainable at any price. ......"
In 1904 he [Chiam Weizmann] settled in Manchester, where W. H. Perkin headed an internationally famous organic chemistry laboratory. Weizmann became a research fellow in 1905, and senior lecturer from 1907. … … Weizmann supplemented his academic income by acting as a consultant to local industrialists, and patenting further chemical discoveries. He also investigated the possibility of using fermentation to produce industrially useful substances, noting in 1912 that the bacterium Clostridium acetobutylicum converted starch to a mixture of ethanol, acetone, and butyl alcohol. The process seemed of no commercial value – until the guns began firing in 1914.
Old-fashioned gunpowder produced heavy smoke, preventing gunners from seeing their targets clearly, while betraying their own position to the enemy. By the late 19th century, several smokeless explosives were available, but the favoured propellant for rifle bullets and artillery projectiles was cordite. To produce it, a mixture of guncotton (cellulose nitrate) and nitroglycerine was made into a paste with acetone and petroleum jelly, and extruded through a die. Before 1914, the acetone required was obtained through the destructive distillation of wood. The supply was inadequate for wartime needs, and by 1915 Britain’s generals were complaining of serious shell shortages, ultimately due to the lack of acetone for making cordite. Then Weizmann moved into the spotlight.
In 1914, Weizmann had offered his services to the government, but received no response. However, his fellow-Mancunian C. P. Scott knew Lloyd George, who headed the newly created Ministry of Munitions from May 1915. They met on 16 June, and Scott noted in his diary: ‘At lunch told him a good deal about Dr Weizmann. He seemed interested, and took me afterwards to see Dr Addison at the Munitions Office’.
Weizmann was summoned to London for meetings with Lloyd George and Winston Churchill (who, as First Lord of the Admiralty, was also concerned about the shell shortage). They obtained laboratory facilities for Weizmann at the Lister Institute, and access to industrial plant in Nicholson’s gin distillery at Bow. Soon, full-scale acetone production began at the Navy’s cordite factory at Poole, and even larger facilities were established in Canada, where corn was plentiful. (By 1917 Britain was very short of grain, and the Ministry of Munitions asked schoolchildren to collect horse chestnuts, so that starch could be extracted from them to make acetone.) After another lunch with Lloyd George on 23 March 1916, Scott wrote: "I had at the outside 5 minutes to speak to him about Weizmann who is much the most essential man in his department, who has worked so far practically for nothing, whose innovative genius has not only saved the country 9 or 10 millions in money, but has secured it essential munitions in quantities otherwise unobtainable at any price. ......"
QUOTE (Tony Lund @ Oct 24 2009, 06:50 PM)
Apparently no one was quite sure exactly which part of Europe Professor Weizmann came from, but everyone was far too polite to ask.
Thats probably because it wasn't a secret - he was born in what is today Belarus but was then part of the Russian Empire. He became a British citizen in 1910. He eventually became the first President of Israel.
It should still be possible to watch the One Show footage on Iplayer see for details:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1290000
NigelS
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1290000
NigelS
Thats probably because it wasn't a secret - he was born in what is today Belarus but was then part of the Russian Empire. He became a British citizen in 1910. He eventually became the first President of Israel.
His son Michael was killed while serving with the RAF in WWII
see http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1531206
His son Michael was killed while serving with the RAF in WWII
see http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1531206
The replies have been a revelation - many thanks to all. What better on a blustery sunny autumn day than conker gathering.I bet the kids did it with enthusiasm in 1917.
Ron
Ron
Hello,
Strictly off topic; but I remember, as a schoolboy, collecting horse chestnuts in WW2. We thought they were processed into animal fodder. I seem to recall that there was some reward perhaps pence per hundredweight.
Old Tom
Strictly off topic; but I remember, as a schoolboy, collecting horse chestnuts in WW2. We thought they were processed into animal fodder. I seem to recall that there was some reward perhaps pence per hundredweight.
Old Tom
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