I have just seen a photograph on a State Library website in Australia with a photograph entitled "Australians Landing at Suvla Bay, 25 April 1915". (Yes, I did have to fill in their "contact us" form).

"And the Band played Waltzing Matilda" twice mentions Australians being slaughtered at Suvla Bay.

Slim Dusty (and others) also sang about an Australian soldier lying on Suvla Bay.

I wonder where this idea came from?

Judy

Mainly because Anzac Cove had not been named at the time of the landings. Maps of the area then available to the press and particularly in Atlases were very sketchy showing mainly the Dardanelles, Suvla Bay and Gelibu. It was known that the ANZACS had landed between the mouth of the Dardanelles and Suvla Bay. The whole coastline there is only a few miles. They had travelled a few thousand miles to get to the penninsular, so pin pointing the actual landing within about 1 mile, on a featureless map was reasonably accurate. For about three months nothing else of importance happened at Suvla Bay, and by that time the die had been cast. Gallipoli as we know it was Gelibu anglicasied ?.

The best version of Suvla Bay was by Ray Kernaghan, father of Lee and Tania. Slim was OK, though. Eric Bogle admitted that he was influenced by the "Old Australian Homestead" 'folksong" when he dashed off "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda". He was absolutely amazed by his [delayed] success, and states that he would have been more accurate with such things as "1915" and "Tin Hat", and may have dispelled any doubt that his country saying "Son..." meant he was conscripted. Had he done so the song may not have struck the chord that it decidely has with audiences around the world.

IMHO the caption of the picture should not be altered. Historically it was correct at the time of creation.

There were many songs about people sailing to Botany Bay. THat is more romantic than Port Jackson and easier to rhyme with than "Siddeney", their true destination. The geographical error is about the same distance as on Gallipoli.

And talking about bays, it would surprise many part and full time residents of Canberra that Jervis Bay is also in the A.C.T.

Judy:

I'd like to understand more about the myth you have referred to. In a book I have about the Dardanelles, written by a naval officer who was there and published in 1916 and which includes a map, the Anzacs landed at points between 2 and 4 miles from Suvla. This is not such a great distance that it could not be loosely described as Suvla, and there is no other named place nearby. Is this a touchy subject for Australian historians?

a rose by any other name ...........

Regardless of the lyrics of songwriters and balladeers , the only Australians at Suvla Bay
were 300 Officers and men of theRoyal Australian Naval Bridging team who were landed
on August 8th. and were employed in the building of wharves , bridges , unloading stores
and repairing and maintaining equipment in open air workshops.

During the 5 months at Suvla they suffered casualties of 2 dead , 60 wounded and 2 died of
disease.

The bulk of the team were evacuated on the night of 16/17 December but 50 remained behind
at Lala Baba beach and were not taken off until 0430 on Dec. 20th.

Thus being the last Australians to leave the Peninsula as the evacuation at Anzac Cove was completed
by 0410 on Dec. 20th.

During the Suvla campaign they were based at "D" beach on the north side of Suvla Bay.

"D" Beach is now on the maps and known to the Locals as Kangaroo Beach.

Peter

Judy

Its something Ive come across now and again and always thought it was people who did not know better taking the Eric Bogle song as fact, but as you say it certainly predates that. The episode on the Dardanelles in the otherwise excellent 1964 TV documentary The Great War, attributes a quote from Monash as describing the Australians leaving Sulva Bay when in fact he was clearly describing Anzac Cove. Given the historical weight behind that series if they could not get it right what hope for the rest of us.

Tim B

I suspect no-one would think twice about the slight geographical 'drift' if it were not for the name Suvla having other connotations associated with the later landings there.

Whether or not it has contributed to this confusion in any form, I cannot say, however there were raids on Suvla at the time of the first landings
The British OH (see pages 312> in Vol.I) mentions Naval & NZ (but not Australian) landing parties going after Turkish artillery observers at Nimbrunesi Point from the evening of 30th April 1915.
Quote:
"Doubling to the top of Lala Baba, these (Navy) men found and destroyed a telephone wire in a small trench on its summit, but the Turkish piquet escaped.
Two days later this raid was repeated on a somewhat larger scale, and at daybreak on the 2nd May 50 men of the Canterbury Battalion, under Capt. C. Cribb, left for Suvla in the destroyer Cone (Commander C. Seymour). This attack met with more success. A landing was effected inside the bay, at the foot of Lala Baba, and the raiders, advancing in three parties, found the trench at the top of the hill occupied by seventeen sleeping Turks. On the alarm being given the Turks fired a few shots, but it was too late to put up an organized resistance and after two of them had been killed and two had bolted, the remainder of the party, consisting of an officer and twelve men, surrendered. The New Zealanders searched the neighbourhood, discovering two other small trenches overlooking Nimbrunesi Point. But the telephone wire destroyed by the sailors had not been repaired, and no instruments were found. About noon the whole party re-embarked without interference from the enemy."

I can vouch for the fact that the song quoted earlier about an Australian homestead was very popular. I happen to know a couple of verses and the tune from my parents who had learned it as a ' pop ' song in their youth. i.e. at the time of the Great war or just after. They knew it as Suvla Bay.

I think the sketchy maps and the short distances make a great deal of sense, and as you rightly say, a pretty accurate pin point at that time.

As for Jervis Bay, I do know it is in the ACT as I lived in Canberra for over 40 years and we used to go down there in buses to dances at the Naval College! Great days!. However in those days we pronounced it JARvis Bay. Only in much more recent times was it discovered that the man they named it after actually pronounced his namer JERvis. For a while people tried calling it JERvis Bay but it was hard to change. I'm not sure what the latest is on that one!

Many thanks for your reply. I think the Ray Kernaghan version is the best too but I couldn't spell it!

Judy

I think this is extremely well put and, in fact is the crux of the whole matter as to why some Australians are indeed "touchy" about it.

Many thanks
Judy

Peter,

So far I haven't found this information so am very pleased to have it. Many thanks for your input. I know from other posts that you spend lots and lots of time on the Peninsula. I have only just begun but will keep going back when I can

Judy

Tim

So true! I think however that there has been so much more interest in Gallipoli in recent years (by that I mean about the last 15 years) that these questions are now bound to arise. As so many people are now going to the services held on the Peninsula each Anzac Day (and I think there are about 4 on the day including a Turkish service), they are learning more and more from the history guides and therefore asking more and more questions. Someone has just sent me the Andrew Denton DVD Gallipoli : Brothers in Arms showing some interviews with some participants and with the historian on the AWM tour in 2006. As an aside, the historian strongly refutes the "myth" that the 25 April landing was on the "wrong" beach - but that is another topic which I don't want to get into now!

Judy

Judy

When you wish to have the quote of Gen. Hamilton and Commander Dix
regarding landing on the wrong beach at Anzac , please let me know as I have the
quotes and page number from the London Gazette regarding these.

Peter

Many thanks, Peter, I'd really like to have these details. I am actually very interested in the opinions (or evidence?) that it may not have been the wrong beach (and have done a little investigation). I had a long? discussion with my husband (ex RAN) this morning - he apparently read about the Royal Australian Naval involvement the other day on the RAN website - but we hadn't yet caught up on that one. I'll read more.

Judy

Judy

Am away at the moment but will be back home about Nov.16th.

Will post what I have.

Peter

Many thanks Peter. Whenever you can will be fine.

Judy

Funny though in Britain there is some angst over getting the site of a major battle field (Bosworth) 'off' by about two miles. Geographical drift does matter

I hope you all don't mind my intruding on this Australian history. I've found it interesting. About landing on the wrong beach: The Australian official History says that happened and there is a sketch map showing the intended and actual landing places. See page 255 at:

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/2/chapters/12.pdf

Hi, I think the information on the link below is quite interesting - there was a thread on the "wrong beach" on GWF a while back but, although I am very interested, it hasn't been highest on my list of Gallipoli research, only because I have so much else I am researching about the Campaign.

http://www.abc.net.au/innovation/gallipoli...al_analysis.htm

It might matter around Bosworth where millions of people have lived or travelled through in the period since the battle. The drift would be of no concern to the inhabitants of that section of the Turkish coastline, or to the majority of Australians. In many cases their next door neighbours lived further away than the 'drift' but their home address was the same.

It was of great concern to those in many "Old Australian Homesteads" that their menfolk would not be returning from what was, at the time, the scene of the greatest single loss of Australian lives ANYWHERE. Suvla Bay could be found on any school atlas. It may have a 'nice' ring to it, but is certainly more practicable than a map reference in latitude & longitude. THat reference would probably not be much different to that of Suvla Bay, anyway.

Why all the fuss about where the ANZACs fought anyway?

The French, British, and Newfoundlanders all refer to Gallipoli, which geographically was the english translation of the Turkish town of Gelibu.
To be 'acceptable' the reference should be "gallipoli peninsula", but even that description was probably coined as a result of the invasion.
In some cases 'we' do not even have the continent right, as much fighting took place in Asia.

Number: G00579
Maker: Brooks, Ernest
Place made:
Ottoman Empire: Turkey, Chanak, Gallipoli Peninsula Date made: September-December 1915 Physical description: Black & white Summary: A despatch rider galloping from Suvla Bay to Anzac Cove to avoid being sniped at. Great risk was run by these men in carrying out their very important duties.

I hope this is not considered to be a red herring. Notice that the location 'given' this pic by the British Official Photographer is "Chanak".

There have been inferences that Australians were not at Suvla Bay, [with certain exceptions]. Another exception is the squad of snipers, actually counter snipers, raised mainly from Australian Light Horse units who were sent there in August.

That's a rather puzzling caption; I suspect a bit of journalistic licence.

What about the photographer? Was he invisible to snipers? Those graves can't have been prepared too quickly either. Maybe this was the sort of caption that was used to fire up the imagination of the public at the time? Despatch riders galloped because the message sender wanted the intended recipient to get the message as soon as possible.

Andy.

Spoilsport!

But now that you ask...


A despatch rider galloping from Suvla Bay to Anzac Cove to avoid being sniped at. Great risk was run by these men in carrying out their very important duties. The rider is possibly 852 Private (Pte) Stirling Fritz Blacket, who enlisted in the 2nd LIght Horse on 19 December 1914. After being wounded at Gallipoli in August 1915, Pte Blacket returned as a despatch rider to Suvla Bay in September. In an interview with his grandson in later life, he described the taking of a photograph of either himself or his fellow despatch rider on the Gallipoli Peninsula. 'I distinctly remember the time the photographer got permission to take the photo. He had a valuable camera and valued himself. It was hard to take photos in a safe place to avoid you or the photographer getting shot up. The place I suggested was a quiet little beach on Anzac Cove, with just a couple of graves there. I told this photographer that one of us would ride around there so he could take photos. That goes down well with the public when they see someone galloping around. So we did a canter around for him while we were sitting upright on the horse and he took these photos. We couldn't ride fast as there was a lot of traffic. When despatch riding we would crouch over the neck of the horse to avoid getting shot.' Pte Blacket continued to serve in the Light Horse, and was awarded a Military Medal, for his part in the capture of seven Turks near Khor El Ajham on 21 July 1917. He was also commended for his work as a despatch rider at Gallipoli and in the Middle East. Credit line: Admiralty Official Photograph

An interesting topic. I've always assumed that Eric Bogle's reference to Suvla Bay (which is probably most responsible for promoting the Suvla myth, at least to the 'general public') was simply because there's a loose rhyme between 'Suvla' and 'Australia'.

Cheers,

Mat

In an old Australian homestead
With the roses 'round the door
A girl received a letter
'Twas a message from the war
With her mother's arms around her
She gave way to sobs and sighs
And as she read this letter
The tears came to her eyes

Why do I weep, why do I pray
My love's asleep so far away
He played his part that April day
And now he sleeps... on Suvla Bay

Oh-de-lo-oh-de-oh-de-oh-lady-de-de-oh-de-oh-oh-oh...

She joined a band of sisters
On the little cross of red
To do her noble duty
To her love who now lay dead
Many others came to woo her
But was sadly turned away
As she told them her sad story
Of her love on Suvla Bay

Why do I weep, why do I pray
My love's asleep so far away
He played his part that April day
And now he sleeps... on Suvla Bay...

G'day Matt

With all due respect, Eric Bogle is a long way down the list. This is a version by Tex Willaims. There have been may others which I suspect date from the time of WW1.
I certainly remember it as a child in the 1940's.

Interestingly, during WW2 there was an adaptation substituting Suda Bay for Suvla Bay. This became topical after the AIF was involved in the defence of Crete based around Suda Bay. In some versions of both 'places', there is a reference to an AGH in Gaza, which was was certainly feasible.

When this topic first came up, I 'suspected' that Ashmead-Bartlett's despatch, published in Aussie papers on 8-9 May used the heading "Suvla Bay". It was actually Gaba Tepe, but Suvla would be easier to find when looking at a current map of Turkey.

http://www.nla.gov.au/gallipolidespatches/...3126315-4x.html

Armidale

You are showing your age mate , I also remember "Suvla Bay" in the
late 40's

Peter

Armidale and Peter

I remember "Suvla Bay" from the early to mid fifties and can still remember every single word - (although I'd forgotten all the oh de loh de oh de loh de oh oh). Oh that my memory was as good in more pressing matters!

Judy

Mat

It may be so. Clearly Suvla Bay rhymes with 'pray' and 'far away' and 'April Day and I find it easier to allow for the "geographical drift" mentioned earlier with such an early song.

I just find it a bit hard to listen to words about Australians being slaughtered at Suvla Bay, especially after having spent time recently reflecting at the Nek. I would have found it easier had he used words such as slaughtered at Gallipoli (if one doesn't want to get too geographically specific).

Cheers
Judy

Hey Jude

(although I'd forgotten all the oh de loh de oh de loh de oh oh).


You can be forgiven. The 'yodel' was not common to all versions. Strangely enough Slim Dusty is on record [pun definitely intended] as saying that Regal zonaphone would not accept his first song until he had included the obligatory yodel.

These may be of interest: He discusses “And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda” at :-

http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/print...9020705613.html

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=121467





If you prefer "Gallipoli" there is always the song by Ted Egan OAM, former Administrator of the Northern Territory.

GALLIPOLI


TED EGAN OAM

The word's on every soldier's lips - GALLIPOLI
The landing boats leave the ships - GALLIPOLI
Rifles held in nervous grips
Eerie gleam of bayonet tips
The Anzacs hit the coastal strips - GALLIPOLI

Atop the cliffs is Johnny Turk - GALLIPOLI
Peering through the mist and murk - GALLIPOLI
Human nature goes berserk
When soldiers know they mustn't shirk
Killing's just a job of work - GALLIPOLI

CHORUS
Boys, boys, warlords' toys
Pawns in the war-games of history
But they're bold, bold,
They'll do as they're told
A legend's in the making at Gallipoli.


Hit the beach, the rising sun - GALLIPOLI
This is real, the talking's done - GALLIPOLI
Every man a mother's son
But give each one a bloody gun
They'll kill each other just for fun - GALLIPOLI

Scale the cliffs, pounding hearts - GALLIPOLI
The shelling and the slaughter starts - GALLIPOLI
Crazy feats of derring-do
Out of all the madness grew
The story of the Anzacs at Gallipoli

CHORUS

And on the 24th of May - GALLIPOLI
Postpone the killing for a day - GALLIPOLI
Bury the dead: Let us pray
Bid young Johnny Turk " G'day "
Termorrer he's the one you'll slay - GALLIPOLI

They say old soldiers never die - GALLIPOLI
But young ones do, and I ask why - GALLIPOLI
With this battle finally done
Not an inch of ground was won
And bones lie bleaching in the sun - GALLIPOLI

CHORUS

The lords have played the game before - MONOPOLY
Scan the maps, keep the score - CATASTROPHE
Cognac and cigars galore
If they were made to fight the war
They'd very quickly call "Withdraw!" - IMMEDIATELY

And when the silence comes again - GALLIPOLI
Pity those who are insane - GALLIPOLI
Count the wounded, treat the pain
A hundred and forty thousand slain
Heroes all, but dead in vain - GALLIPOLI

CHORUS




G'day Pete

I have nothing else to brag about, and getting old sure beats the alternative.

Armidale

Your not wrong about the alternative mate , as I often tell groups after
a tour of Anzac and the cemeteries.

"Never regret growing old,

Some of us never had the chance"

Peter

[quote name='Armidale' date='Oct 31 2009, 10:34 PM' post='1295465']
Hey Jude


These may be of interest: He discusses “And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda” at :-

http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/print...9020705613.html

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=121467

Armidale

Many thanks for these and for the words of Gallipoli by Ted Egan. I downloaded it and another couple of his and am very pleased to have heard them. I do like Eric Bogle's song - I just found that after going to Gallipoli the Suvla Bay bit felt very wrong. "Felt" is the operative word here. His explanations made lots of sense.

I was reading John Masefield's Gallipoli the other day (1916 version) and see that ANZAC is used in the relevant photo captions.

Judy

DIGGER SMITH by C.J. Dennis

I. BEFORE THE WAR

"Before the war," she sighs. "Before the war." Then blinks 'er eyes, an' tries to work a smile."Ole scenes," she sez, "don't look the same no more. Ole ways," she sez, "seems to 'ave changed their style. The pleasures that we had don't seem worth while --Them simple joys that passed an hour away -- An' troubles, that we used to so revile,'Ow small they look", she sez. "'Ow small today."This war!" sighs ole Mar Flood. An' when I seen The ole girl sittin' in our parlour there,Tellin' 'er troubles to my wife Doreen. As though the talkin' eased 'er load 'uv care, I thinks uv mothers, 'ere and everywhere,Smilin' a bit while they are grievin' sore For grown-up babies, fightin' Over There;An' then I 'ears 'em sigh, "Before the war."My wife 'as took the social 'abit bad. I ain't averse -- one more new word I've learned --Averse to tea, when tea is to be 'ad; An' when it comes I reckon that it's earned. It's jist a drink, as fur as I'm concerned,Good for a bloke that toilin' on the land; But when a caller comes, 'ere am I turnedInto a social butterfly, off-'and. Then drinkin' tea becomes a 'oly rite. So's I won't bring the family to disgraceI guts a bit 'uv coachin' overnight On ridin' winners in this bun-fed race. I 'ave to change me shirt, an' wash me face,An' look reel neat, from me waist up at least, An sling remarks in at the proper place,An' not makes noises drinkin', like a beast."'Ave some more cake. Another slice, now do. An' won't yeh 'ave a second cup uv tea?'Ow is the children?" Ar, it makes me blue! This boodoor 'abit ain't no good to me. I likes to take me tucker plain an' free:Tea an' a chunk out on the job for choice, So I can stoke with no one there to see.Besides, I 'aven't got no comp'ny voice.Uv course, I've 'ad it all out with the wife. I argues that there's work that must be done.An' tells 'er that I 'ates this tony life. She sez there's jooties that we must not shun. You bet that ends it; so I joins the fun,An' puts 'em all at ease with silly grins - Slings bits uv repartee like "'Ave a bun,"An' passes bread an' butter, for my sins.Since I've been marri'd, say, I've chucked some things, An' learned a whole lot more to fill the space.I've slung all slang; crook words 'ave taken wings, An' I 'ave learned to entertain with grace. But when ole Missus Flood comes round our placeI don't object to 'er, for all 'er sighs; Becos I likes 'er ways, I likes 'er face,An', most uv all, she 'as them mother's eyes."Before the war," she sighs, the poor ole girl. 'Er talk it gets me thinkin' in between,While I'm assistin' at this social whirl. . . . She comes across for comfort to Doreen, To talk about the things that might 'ave been


If Syd 'ad not been killed at Suvla Bay,


Or Jim had not done a bunk at seventeen,An' not been heard uv since 'e went away.They 'ave a little farm right next to us -- 'Er and 'er husband - where they live alone.Spite uv 'er cares, she ain't the sort to fuss Or serve up sudden tears an' sob an' moan, An' since I've known 'er some'ow I 'ave grownTo see in 'er, an' all the grief she's bore, A million brave ole mothers 'oo 'ave knownDeep sorrer since them days before the war."Before the war," she sez. "Yeh mind our Syd? Poor lad. . . . But then, yeh never met young Jim --'Im 'oo was charged with things 'e never did. Ah, both uv you'd 'ave been reel chums with 'im. 'Igh-spirited 'e was, a perfect limb.It's six long years now since 'e went away -- Ay, drove away." 'Er poor ole eyes git dim."That was," she sighs, "that was me blackest day."Me blackest day! Wot am I sayin' now? That was the day the parson came to tellThe news about our Syd. . . . An', yet, some'ow . . . . My little Jim!" She pauses for a spell. . . . "Your 'olly'ocks is doin' reely well,"She sez, an' battles 'ard to brighten up. "An' them there pinks uv yours, 'ow sweet they smell.An' - Thanks! I think I will 'ave one more cup."As fur as I can get the strength uv it, Them Floods 'ave 'ad a reel tough row to how.First off, young Jim, 'oo plays it high a bit, Narks the ole man a treat, an' slings the show.


Then come the war, an' Syd 'e 'as to go.'E run 'is final up at Suvla Bay -- One uv the Aussies I was proud to know.


An' Jim's cracked 'ardy since 'e went away.'Er Jim! These mothers! Lord, they're all the same. I wonders if Doreen will be that kind.Syd was the son 'oo played the reel man's game; But Jim 'oo sloped an' left no word be'ind, His is the picter shinin' in 'er mind.'Igh-spirited! I've 'eard that tale before. I sometimes think she'd take it rather kindTo 'ear that 'is 'igh spirits run to war."Before the war," she sez. "Ah, times was good. The little farm out there, an' jist us fourWorkin' to make a decent liveli'ood. Our Syd an' Jim! . . . Poor Jim! I grieves me sore; For Dad won't 'ave 'im mentioned 'ome no more.'E's 'urt, I know, cos 'e thinks Jim 'urt me. As if 'e could, the bonny boy I bore. . . .But I must off 'ome now, an' git Dad's tea."I seen 'er to the gate. (Take it frum me, I'm some perlite.) She sez, "Yeh mustn't mindMe talkin' uv Jim, but when I see Your face it brings 'im back; 'e's jist your kind. Not quite so 'an'some, p'r'aps, nor so refined.I've got some toys uv 'is," she sez. "But there -- This is ole woman's talk, an' you be'indWith all yer work, an' little time to spare.She gives me 'and a squeeze an' turns away, Sobbin', I thort; but then she looks be'ind,Smilin', an' wavin', like she felt reel gay, I wonders 'ow the women work that blind, An' jist waves back; then goes inside to findA lookin'-glass, an' takes a reel good look. . . . "'Not quite so 'an'some, p'r'aps, nor so refined!'Gawd 'elp yeh, Jim," I thinks. "Yeh must be crook."

"The Play" by C J Dennis


What's in a name she sez
N then she sighs
n clasps er little anz
n rolls er eyes

A rose she sez
be any other name
wood smell the same

Wherefore art you Romeo young sir
Chuck yore ole pot n change yer monikerr

Doreen n me
We been to see a show
THe swell two dollar touch
bong ton yeh now

A chair apiece
wiv velvet on the seat
a slap up treat
The dramers writ by Shakespeare years ago
about this barmy goat called Romeo.


Judy
I cannot share your aversion to the use of Suvla. I consider that it is 'technically' correct in that it was common usage at the time that the dreaded "message from the war" was received. THat was the point of greatest, and therefore lasting impact on THAT generation of Australians.

C J Dennis, as you would know, published 'trench versions' of his works which had incredible circulation numbers. I cannot remember reading any criticism of his use of Suvla, even from an audience to whom Anzac & Gallipoli were extremely iconic. I have not done a study, but consider that Suvla was used in many newspaper articles of that period.

Armidale

Thank you for the important reminder about CJ Dennis - it is ages since I read that. I have been much more involved in Australians at the Western Front than at Gallipoli which is a recently revived interest of mine (after having been there and now going back and am sure I will go back again....)

Aversion to the use of Suvla is much too strong - maybe it has come over like that but it's been more of an unravelling of a mystery for me. I tried to convey that it was an emotion, a feeling, most definitely heightened (or perhaps even aroused for the first time) after sitting at the Nek cemetery and contemplating the terrible slaughter there. I felt that talking about Australians being slaughtered at Suvla Bay was almost a betrayal of our soldiers lying there at the Nek.

But I know this is all emotional stuff - and personal - and I have gained so much perspective through contributions to this thread.

Judy

On the Western Front, it's not unusual to hear of events 'in France' that actually took place in Belgium, and it's amazing what a huge area 'the Somme' apparently was.