I have been reading Lawrence Binyon's work "For the fallen" and , not for the first time, I was struck by how the fourth stanza seems 'more sophisticated' somehow than the remainder of the poem.
"They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

According to an article on Google it was written in "the bleak early days of World War 1" but a comment by a parish priest in the area where I live has got me thinking . He suggested that the fourth stanza does appear 'different' to the remainder of the poem and might well have been written later, perhaps after the war came to an end.

I would appreciate your thoughts, particularly from those of you who are poets or teach poetry to others.

Strange.. I've often felt the same way. We really need someone talented in textual analysis. (Isn't this poem also the source of the line 'faces to the foe'?)

I think it stands out from the other verses as it doesn't have the (pardon the expression) 'sing-song' rhyming of alternate lines which can often make bad poetry. Most of the rest of the poem is a rhyme line one with line three, line two with four. Perilously close to doggerell in places for me. This verse doesn't.

By the way, it jars for me when the first line is misquoted - 'grow not old' is the right way, more poetic, more powerful. 'not grow old' - is just wrong and ruins the impact for me.

There is an original recording of Binyon reading his poem available on CD.


http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/for-the-fallen/

Staffsyeoman

Quite right, it's from the third stanza:

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted:
They fell with their faces to the foe.

Ian.

If you have access to The Times archives, you can see the entire poem on page 9, September 21st, 1914. It has not been added to or changed, and the well-known fourth stanza is included. It was, therefore, published in full in 1914, so I'm afraid the originator of the comment is mistaken.

Bear in mind that Binyon was one of a group of professional writers and poets engaged by the government from September to write inspirational pieces to orchestrate the popular mood and mindset.

The rhyme scheme of each stanza (each quatrain) seems the same to me: abcb - that is, lines 1 and 3 don't rhyme, while lines 2 and 4 do.

Gwyn

Quite right Gwyn,

I had the privelege of reading the whole poem at a War Memorial rededication recently.
The more I read it beforehand the more I appreciated it although the fourth stanza does stand out from the rest and seems to come in the wrong "order", for want of a better expression.

The line that starts: "As the stars that are starry........has always seemed a bit odd though.

I think the fourth stanza is different in that it is pivotal; the first three stanzas describe the going to war and the deaths, the fourth is the exhortation to remember, then having done that the last three consider the loss and the effect on those left and tries to offer comfort.

David

I think one of his memoirs or recollections years later was that he wrote the fourth stanza first and hung the rest off it. I can't source that though at the moment.

I do agree with you about starry stars.

Gwyn

The aspect of the exhortation that causes me to think is the 'We will remember them' and not the grammatically more usual for a future action 'We shall remember them.' I have always been of the opinion that Binyon used the emphatic 'will' deliberately, and therefore whenever I have had the occasion to deliver the exhortation I always put an emphasis on 'will', whereas some people put it on 'remember'. Either way, it is an emotive few lines and perfect for the occasions when they are spoken.

pmaasz,

I agree with you and I also place the emphasis on the "will".

I've just reached for my copy of The Winnowing Fan: Poems On The Great War By Laurence Binyon - it is a much treasured first edition dated MCMXIV (1914). And, For The Fallen appears on pages 28/29. The fourth stanza is there in all its glory, so definitely not written post-war.

This stanza does seem to stand-out from the rest somewhat, but that may be because we're so accustomed to hearing it - I like to think, though, it is because it has more emotional intensity than the other stanzas. After all, it was chosen to be the phrase which sums-up precisely our Nation's feelings about those who fell, and in doing so has worked remarkably well for the past ninety-odd years or so. All credit to the man who wrote it, and to the man who chose it to represent how we feel.


Cheers-salesie.


PS. Welcome back, Harry.

pmaasz and Squirrel: I coudn't agree more !

All the best,
Fred

Well crafted observation Salesie.

A friend of mine is the ex-headmaster of King Edward VI Grammar School in Chelmsford. He is convinced that Binyon was once a student there but can't prove it. Have you come across any such link?

Thanks.
SPN
Maldon

If you read the link that i posted previously,it states tha Binyon was educated at St.Pauls School,and Trinity College,Oford.

I am sure that is exactly how Binyon intended it.

The declension of the future tense is normally:

I shall, you will, he/she/it will, we shall, you will they will - remember them.
Toggling those is far more emphatic or commanding:
I will, you shall, he/she/it shall, we will, you shall, they shall - remember them

Angela

Thank you Salesie,

Your posting obviously answers the point that I raised when I introduced this thread. It was obviously written during the "bleak early days of WW1" rather than during the relative calm that followed it. Your point regarding the "emotional intensity" of the fourth stanza is something we can all relate to I'm sure and it reflects the mental torment that those involved were forced to endure.

Gwyn's point, in #8, that "...he wrote the fourth stanza first and hung the rest off it"" is interesting and seems to me to be quite plausible. It in no way argues with the points you make and indeed offers support to your analysis.

I'm hoping Gwyn can identify where she read this comment.

Harry

[quote name='Staffsyeoman' date='Nov 3 2009, 11:31 AM'
By the way, it jars for me when the first line is misquoted - 'grow not old' is the right way, more poetic, more powerful. 'not grow old' - is just wrong and ruins the impact for me.
[/quote]


I was in Etaples Cemetery in September and the information boards on the way to the cross have it written not grow old....................

Michelle

I can't reliably remember at the moment, unfortunately. I will try.

By way of setting it in context, you could do what I did, and find the poem in The Times digital archive (my post # 5). (Many county library systems allow you to access this from your home PC using your library card number; mine does.)

Surrounding the poem, there are pragmatic little pieces such as someone's suggestion that the soldiers send home for their own blankets instead of waiting for them to be supplied, and a proposal that the year's unusually good crop of splendid damsons in Shropshire be picked and dispatched by the government to the troops at sea to keep them healthy. I find this kind of domestic detail - life still going on at home - incredibly poignant.

Then there are reports of French troops heading to Alsace and Belfort (Alsace had been occupied by the Germans as Reichsland Elsaß Lothringen since the Treaty of Frankfurt, 1871, despite what is claimed on another prominent Great War website), in a train packed with grief-stricken women and children en route to visit casualties. "The natural vivacity of these French women was gone. They talked, when they did talk, quietly and sadly, and of only one subject. More often they sat with unseeing eyes, looking far off into the darkness of the unknown future, fearful of the fate which awaited the men at their sides, and the ruin and suffering that threatened their homes and their children. The tragedy that has brought suffering to the women of half the world had come upon them [like a bomb] ... and some of them were wounded and all of them were stunned ..."

The war is also reported more widely: the problems of bringing dirty injured soldiers into clean hospitals or hospital ships and the risk of contamination, the destruction of Reims Cathedral, the sinking of a German armed merchantman and other naval encounters, The Times fund for the sick and wounded, the assault on Nancy and the recapture of Lunéville by the French, and of course the battle in the Aisne.

I recognise that newspapers had a duty to interpret the War, yet against these snapshots of human suffering and physical destruction, most of Binyon's poem comes across to me as something which is rather mechanical, drawn from literary traditions with which he would be familiar, and something that a clever man could write without a lot of engagement. The idea of prematurely dead people being preserved in their prime was not new. The fourth stanza is almost a stand-alone poem and I think it benefits from being viewed against its contemporary setting.

Gwyn

Yes I know but the family were in Chelmsford before he attended St. Paul's - that's the point that my friend is researching. So perhaps people don't have the full biography yet!

SPN
Maldon

Harry, I wouldn't be surprised if Gwyn was right about Binyon hanging the other stanzas off it. The question for me, though, is why would Binyon tack the other stanzas to it if he had recognised the great emotional magnitude of the 4th stanza? The other stanzas are, as Gwyn says, pretty standard stuff for the era, yet the 4th stanza is exquisite in its own right - and it is, perhaps, one of history's great works of art, in that on its own it has reached deeply into the hearts and minds of many many millions of people?

I think the positioning of the 4th stanza tells us that Binyon did not recognise its true emotional intensity, if he had then I believe he would have made it the last stanza, thus giving greater power to the whole poem. And, in September 1914, when the poem was written and published, the war was still young and the mood of the nation, and its poets, pretty jingoistic, and For The Fallen appears on pages 28 and 29 of The Winnowing Fan, the penultimate poem of twelve, and the stanza in question is amidst pretty standard stuff. In my opinion, not a positioning that says this is the Jewel in the Crown.

On this evidence, I believe this gem of Binyon’s took him by surprise – perversely, despite the prevailing mood, its popularity appeared pretty early in the war, but as the war dragged-on, and the magnitude of the sacrifice became increasingly apparent, and the mood of the country changed, this 4th stanza captured the mood of a whole nation, a mood that has lasted for almost a century.

Many great poets struggled for a lifetime to compose four lines of such simplistic magnitude without truly succeeding in the way these four lines have. Did Binyon, as Gwyn says, write mechanically at this time? I think he did (and I would include the 4th stanza in this) but without realising that he had in fact created four lines that were greater than the whole of the sum of all his other work?

All in all, Harry, I think it unsurprising that this stanza could be seen by some as a later addition.


Cheers-salesie.

I resorted to Google. I have no idea whether what I found was reliable, but on a couple of poetry websites someone has posted: As to how it came to be written, Laurence Binyon, who celebrated his 70th anniversary on 10 August 1939, says: "I can't recall the exact date beyond that it was shortly after the retreat. I was set down, out of doors, on a cliff in Polzeath, Cornwall. The stanza "They Shall Grow Not Old" was written first and dictated the rhythmical movement of the whole poem." This was dated 2005 and I don't know of the author, but he or she wasn't challenged on that. It would have been useful if s/he had given the source.

Edit. After trawling through various Cornwall websites which repeated the story of Binyon perched on the cliffs at Polzeath, I found the account sourced on the RNCA website apparently from an article published in the Western Morning News. [No date given]

Salesie - in 'The Winnowing Fan', is it 'condemn' or 'contemn'? The Times version, which I assume is original, is 'condemn', but some versions I found in modern anthologies have 'contemn', which has a different meaning. Just curious.

One detail which makes the 4th stanza sound different is the shortness of the last line, which has the feel of an incantation. I suppose, having written the 'jewel in the crown', he needed to write the velvet on which to lay it out.

Incidentally, I hope this isn't seen as pedantic, but he's Laurence with a u not a w.

Gwyn

Morning, Gwyn - in The Winnowing Fan it is "condemn".

Never come across a version with “contemn” (not that I’ve seen too many), but now that you've mentioned it I can see how "contemn" would perhaps be more apt? A hell of a cheek to change it, though, if purposefully done.

I agree with you about the last line, and see it as being the driving force that gives those four lines such emotional intensity – which is why I think the author would have made it the last stanza if realising the power that events would give it. Four words that enabled four lines to maintain such emotional meaning for a whole nation for almost four generations now – splendid stuff!


Cheers-salesie.

Hello Gwyn,

Thank you for an interesting analysis. I suppose that I was trying to say something similar when I used the phrase "more sophisticated" (#1) to describe how the fourth stanza stands out from the remainder of the poem. However, you expressed it so much better.

It was also interesting to read that part of your post which suggested that "the fourth stanza is almost a stand alone poem". For what it's worth, I agree entirely. Whenever I read "For the Fallen" I find myself concentrating only on the fourth stanza. That might very well say something about the narrowness of my education but, for me, there are other poems that cover similar ground and are far more able to "attack my senses" in a really meaningful way.

Harry

[quote name='salesie' date='Nov 4 2009, 11:00 PM' post='1298269']
Harry, I wouldn't be surprised if Gwyn was right about Binyon hanging the other stanzas off it. The question for me, though, is why would Binyon tack the other stanzas to it if he had recognised the great emotional magnitude of the 4th stanza? The other stanzas are, as Gwyn says, pretty standard stuff for the era, yet the 4th stanza is exquisite in its own right - and it is, perhaps, one of history's great works of art, in that on its own it has reached deeply into the hearts and minds of many many millions of people?

Thank you for that Salesie. As usual you raise some interesting points and ask some important questions.

I agree with you in that the other stanzas add very little, if anything, to the fourth. You describe it, quite justifiably I think, as "one of history's great works of art" and I have to admit that very few poems have affected me in the way this does. I accept, therefore, the point you make when you say that "on its own it has reached deeply into the hearts and minds of many many millions of people". However, other Great War poems have had a similar impact. For example Wilfred Owen's "Dulce et Decorum Est" a masterpiece of imagery that some would argue is the most famous poem of The First World War.

I think the positioning of the 4th stanza tells us that Binyon did not recognise its true emotional intensity.

Another interesting point. I wonder though if any artist appreciates that the item he's working on, be it a painting, a sculpture, a poem or whatever is destined for greatness, or if anyone (perhaps Michelangelo is the exception) sets out with the expressed intention of producing a masterpiece. I wont pretend to understand what motivates people like Binyon, Owen or Sassoon but I doubt it's more than producing something that is as good as he or she can make it and perhaps good enough to earn the plaudits of those whose opinion he respects. Like you I feel sure that Binyon didn't recognise the quality of the 4th stanza but how could he ? How could he possibly have measured it's worth and recognised the impact it would have on people then and in the future? As you say its popularity emerged soon after he wrote it and grew as the horror of The Great War unfolded and I agree with you that its popularity almost certainly took him by surprise. How could it have been otherwise?

All in all, Harry, I think it unsurprising that this stanza could be seen by some as a later addition.


Well, I know what you mean but not everyone has the time, the interest and inclination to research a topic as fully as members of the forum.


Best wishes,

Harry

I agree, Harry, that Binyon could not possibly have recognised his 4th stanza's greatness when writing it - my point being that it would not have stood out in his mind as much as it does in ours, otherwise he would not have hung any other stanzas on it, or he would at least have made it the last, or perhaps even the first, stanza. In my opinion, although he may have written these four lines first, he seems to have "demoted" them in his final layout.

Which, in my opinion, makes For The Fallen similar but different to the masterpiece of Owen's. This sounds a bit like an oxymoron so I'll try to explain.

Similar in that, as you so rightly point out, no poet or novelist or artist or sculptor etc. sets out with the sure-fire knowledge that they're about to create a masterpiece, they set out to express themselves in the best way they can. They feel a need to create and this need has many heads - from expressing an emotional, deeply personal, experience through a gambit of others needs right up to the need to earn a living (not all artists and writers have the privilege of being able to ply their "trade" for emotional satisfaction alone), and all artists, including Binyon and Owen, have this in common; they do their best and it is the recipient of their work, the viewer or the reader, who dictates the greatness of their work or not.

The differences:

1) Binyon, at the time, was an established and well-known poet, and, as Gwyn pointed out earlier, "was one of a group of professional writers and poets engaged by the government from September to write inspirational pieces to orchestrate the popular mood and mindset." Owen was not an established poet, he'd never had anything published and had been a private tutor to a family in Bordeaux 1913-15 before enlisting in the Artists Rifles.

3) Owen had little confidence in his work, and was mentored by Sassoon, whom he regarded with awe, when both convalesced from shell-shock at Craiglockhart Hospital - and, of course, Owen never lived to see any of his work published, let alone its literary merit. Binyon was a competent and confident writer, who lived to see the greatness of his four-line fourth stanza.

2) Binyon was fulfilling his role as an "agent" of the government when writing his early pieces, including For The Fallen, which were, as Gwyn also pointed out, pretty standard, rather mechanical, stuff for the day. Owen, on the other hand, wrote purely from deeply emotional (for him) personal experience.

4) Owen's work achieved some popularity when first published shortly after the war's end, but it was the 1960's, and the rise of the peace movements, that saw a great surge in popularity for Owen's poetry. And, it has to be said, that Owen's thoughts as expressed in his work, despite its literary merit, was never wholly representative of those who fought, and the 1960s surge in popularity reflected a modern political mood more than anything else, in line, of course, with the rise in popularity of the "Lions led by Donkeys brigade." Binyon's four immortal lines never really lost any of its popularity or impact, except for a small dip in interest in remembrance around the same time as the rise of Owen's work along with the "ee-aw Brigade's" influence.

To summarise, Harry.

Neither Binyon nor Owen had the sure-fire knowledge that their work would achieve great public acclaim when writing their pieces, but the differences do throw up another similarity; whatever the reason for the author putting pen to paper, whether writing from personal experience or simply fulfilling a role, greatness is always possible.

And, although like you I regard "Dulce et Decorum Est" as a masterpiece in expressing deep felt personal experience, I regard Binyon's four-line stanza as one of history's greatest works of art. Owen's work is famous for sure, but, in my opinion, Binyon's ever so simplistic four-lines transcend fame itself; they are not the feelings expressed by one man that many can sympathise with and/or use for political ends, Binyon's four-lines express the feelings of a whole nation, whether for or anti-war, those four-lines have gone beyond fame and entered deeply into our nation's culture and thus achieved immortality.


Cheers-salesie.

I would like to know whether Binyon's memoirs or papers, or his biographer, cast any light on his thought processes when he wrote 'For The Fallen'.

Have followed this thread with interest..........

While the lines from Binyon's fourth stanza "have gone beyond fame and entered deeply into our nation's culture and thus achieved immortality" , as Salesie so rightly and eloquently says, I personally much admire the last stanza except for the awful wording at the start of the third line.

[quote name='salesie' date='Nov 5 2009, 05:42 PM' post='1298734']


Hello Salesie

1) Binyon, at the time, was an established and well-known poet, and, as Gwyn pointed out earlier, [i]"was one of a group of professional writers and poets engaged by the government from September to write inspirational pieces to orchestrate the popular mood and mindset." Owen was not an established poet, he'd never had anything published and had been a private tutor to a family in Bordeaux 1913-15 before enlisting in the Artists Rifles.


Yes, they were different in that respect. Owen's greatness developed later and much more slowly. It was as if his talent lay deeply hidden even from himself and only emerged after what appears to have been a great deal of effort on his part. You mention, in your excellent analysis, his period with Sassoon at Craiglockhart where he sought out "the great man" and made it very obvious that he was seeking guidance as well as approval. I've always thought it interesting that having learnt from the master he went on to eclipse him with some of the finest war poetry ever written.

Not only did Owen lack "confidence in his work" he appeared to lack confidence in just about everything he did. Perhaps that had something to do with the nature of his close relationship with his mother or, more likely, his sexual orientation. Self doubt stayed with him throughout his life and he always seemed to be striving to prove himself and to achieve the acceptance of others no matter what he did.

2) Owen never lived to see any of his work published, let alone its literary merit. Binyon was a competent and confident writer, who lived to see the greatness of his four-line fourth stanza.

Yes, it was a great pity that Owen died at Ors before he had realised that he had achieved something great, something that, in my opinion anyway, no other war poet came near to achieving. We've mentioned "Dulce et Decorum Est" but his "Anthem For Doomed Youth", "The Sentry" and others deserved the recognition they received and continue to receive today.

I have just glanced through the book "First World War Poems" chosen by the then Poet Laureat Andrew Motion and published in 2003. It was interesting to see that thirteen of Owen's poems are included and none by Laurence Binyon. I know that it was one man's choice but Owen's popularity today is enormous and seems to be growing.

3) It has to be said, that Owen's thoughts as expressed in his work was never wholly representative of those who fought.

I agree completely. Both Sassoon and Owen worked to their own agenda and, as you say, it never matched the attitudes and feelings of many of those who fought in The great War. You mention the sixties. What about today with the growing public reaction against the war in Afghanistan. Perhaps Owen's time is coming around again.

4) greatness is always possible.

Theoretically yes, but few will ever get even near achieving it. Binyon did so with his 4th stanza from "For the Fallen", Owen did the same in the shape of several of his completed war poems. If there's a major difference, that surely is it. Dare I say that it's almost as if Binyon stumbled on greatness while Owen refined his talents and produced art of the highest order.

5) In my opinion, Binyon's ever so simplistic four-lines transcend fame itself; they are not the feelings expressed by one man that many can sympathise with and/or use for political ends, Binyon's four-lines express the feelings of a whole nation, whether for or anti-war, those four-lines have gone beyond fame and entered deeply into our nation's culture and thus achieved immortality.

Beautifully expressed and I hope I don't appear to be contradicting what I've said in 4 above when I say I agree completely and those will be the thoughts in my mind when I recite the 4th stanza on Sunday at the village Remembrance Service.


Best wishes,

Harry