Pals,

On 12 May 1915 Lieutenant George Drewry VC wrote to his father from "H.M.S. River Clyde, Sedd-el-Bahr, Turkey." He told how Captain Edward Unwin VC had put him "onboard this ship and gave me thirty Greeks and told me to clean her up." After telling about some of the work undertaken, he said "We ......cleaned her up for troops, painted the starboard side P&O colour."

Does P&O refer perhaps to the Peninsular and Oriental Line ships, on which Drewry and Unwin had previously served? Whether or not it does, I would be very grateful if any Pal could tell me please, what was "P&O colour."?

Regards,
Philip

White hull, yellow funnel, certainly was on the cruise liners inter war anyway. [as noted in a sailors red duster memoirs].
ttfn
Matt

Not a clue, i'm afraid, but here's an old P&O ship.

Thanks Matt and IPT,

Very nice picture IPT, thanks for taking the trouble to post it.

Matt, the puzzling thing is that he refers to painting the (starboard) side P&O colour. I have read that, because of its colouring, the vessel was known as "The Dun Cow."

Regards,
Philip

Perhaps someone else had already painted the Port side when she was alongside the otherway round?

P&O colour wouldn't by any chance refer to the dazzle type painting where random angular blotches were painted as camouflage possibly using the four colours in the P&O flag (Blue yellow red and white)?

David

Here's a link to a photograph showing the River Clyde on V-beach. It seems to me that the paint job wasn't quite up to dockyard standards, as original paintwork appears to still be visable around the bow.
mb
http://islamnz.com/GallipoliGalleryPages/beachedship.html

Perhaps this shows some form of camouflage - interesting possible outlines of other vessels painted along the waterline?

Another thought: 1915 would have been a bit early for restoring her to standard P&O Livery (which might be what was being asked for in the original post)?

David

Philip,

Looking at the illustrations in 'The Story of P&O' by David & Stephen Howarth (Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1986, ISBN 0 297 78965 1) then I would say that the pre-war house colours were dark hull and dark funnel; perhaps black and black
The 1892 watercolour by W W Lloyd showing the Himalaya is a good example, and it can also be seen here on-line http://www.red-duster.co.uk/PANDO6.htm
In that same set of pictures there is also one of the CHITRAL which was built in 1925, showing that the same colours continued to be used by P&O post WWI

best regards
Michael

I would say that the pre-war house colours were dark hull and dark funnel; perhaps black and black

I was not too far out!
see page 3 of the article linked above
quote: The livery adopted by P&O was a black hull, buff deck housing and black masts and funnels.

This did not change until the mid-1930s; see page 4

regards
Michael

Philip,

Re "We ......cleaned her up for troops, painted the starboard side P&O colour."

At first sight it seems strange that Drewry VC specified the painting of the Starboard side of the River Clyde. Two possible reasons for this suggest themselves to me

i – This was the side which might have been seen from the Asiatic shore on the voyage over from Lemnos
ii – But more importantly, this was the side which would be seen from the Old Fort at Sedd-el-Bahr, and while they had a good idea that the guns at Fort No. 1 were out of action by this time, there must still have been doubts about what awaited them from within the Old Fort

Having said all that, if you look at the photograph (No.5) in Col Michael Hickey's book, which was taken "a few days after the landing," you will see that the port side is also 'blackened'
Note that, unlike the later picture linked to in Egypt's post No.6 above, the bow rail does not appear to be painted white at this time.

Bets regards
Michael

Philip,

Re Does P&O refer perhaps to the Peninsular and Oriental Line ships, on which Drewry and Unwin had previously served?

Per Stephen Snelling's 'VCs of the First World War – Gallipoli' (Alan Sutton Publishing, 1995) both Drewrys, father and son, had worked for P & O, so a ref to this company's livery in a letter between them would be immediately understood

Regarding the painting of the starboard side; a further photograph [see page 32 in Snelling's book] shows a colour scheme substantially the same as that in Egypt's link
Alas, there is no date for this, however, the open sally ports and the suspended walk-ways suggest that it too is an early picture (I may have to re-think my post of earlier today )

regards
Michael

Thank you David, Egypt and Michael,

David, sorry for any confusion I may have caused. While Drewry's letter was written on 12 May 1915, he was referring to work he undertook prior to the 25 April 1915 landing by the River Clyde at V Beach.

Michael, while I have Stephen Snelling's book, I hadn't picked up on the fact that Drewry's father had also served in the P&O. So thanks for that.

Given that P&O hulls appear to have been painted black, I'm baffled as to why Drewry described the painting of the River Clyde's starboard side -- as shown in Egypt's link-- as being P&O colour. To my eyes most of the starboard side does not appear to be painted black, but in a lighter shade, possibly brown.

Regards,
Philip

Philip,

I too am quite thrown by the photograph in Snelling's book
As I said, the general look of it suggests an early date, but while the photograph in Hickey's book (which was apparently taken just a few days after the landing) shows the port side in a solid colour
the picture from Snelling's book (and Egypt's link) has that very strange scheme on the starboard side (I hesitate to call it camouflage)
I don't know what to make of it. Is there some way to find an accurately date for the picture which Snelling used on his page 32?
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

While we are talking about Drewry VC, it should not be out of place to remember him at this time. This from the CWGC

Name: DREWRY, GEORGE LESLIE
Initials: G L
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Reserve
Unit Text: H.M. Trawler "William Jackson."
Age: 23
Date of Death: 02/08/1918
Awards: V C
Additional information: Son of Thomas and Mary Drewry, of 58, Claremont Rd., Forest Gate.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 197. 90251.
Cemetery: CITY OF LONDON CEMETERY AND CREMATORIUM, MANOR PARK

Citation: An extract from "The London Gazette," No. 29264, dated 13th Aug., 1915, records the following:- "Assisted Commander Unwin at the work of securing the lighters under heavy rifle and maxim fire. He was wounded in the head, but continued his work and twice subsequently attempted to swim from lighter to lighter with a line."

Click to view attachment

Here is a photo of the RC after the landings (when V Beach was handed over to the French) showing the camoflaged starboard scheme, the port was plain as photos suggest.

Thanks Steve; that pic's new to me

Philip
re your To my eyes most of the starboard side does not appear to be painted black, but in a lighter shade, possibly brown.

If the starboard side was deliberately painted in a camouflage scheme (P&O Black and another colour) then the second colour does not appear to be P&O's 'Buff'
However, it might have been the case that the only other available paint in the quartermaster's store at Mudros was 'battleship-grey'?

regards
Michael

Thanks Krithia and Michael,

Great picture Krithia. (The gang-planks running along the side of the ship appear to have been removed. Nice view of the gun on the bow).

I read somewhere that the troops referred to the River Clyde as "The Dun Cow." According to Wikipedia Dun is a dull shade of brownish grey.

But the mystery remains. How could Drewry -- by any stretch of the imagination -- describe the painting of the starboard side as being "P&O colour"? I don't know if we're going to solve this one Pals.

Regards,
Philip

Much as I hate to quote anything gleaned from Wikipedia - according to their 'River Clyde' entry, "The hull was to be painted a sandy yellow as camouflage, but the work was incomplete by the time of the landing".
(Sandy Yellow being the P&O funnel colour).
I just wish I knew where Wiki got their info from.
mb

Quote from "The Incomparable 29th and the River Clyde" :

The famous "Horse of Troy," the "River Clyde", lies near..... She is painted khaki on one side I see, but only in patches, the idea evidently is to make her resemble a sandstone rock - all very ingenious no doubt, but she will make a good target in spite of her paint.

I also recall reading somewhere that the paint to complete the camourflage effect had run out prior to the River Clyde's embarkation from Lemnos.

I can confirm the "Dun Cow" reference in so far as this is the name used by an officer describing the landing from the River Clyde in the Hampshire Regimental Journal of 1915.

Marc

Well done Marc
Thanks for soring this out

Michael

Thanks Marc and Egypt,

Marc, that information is very helpful indeed. I'd be very grateful if you, or any other Pal, could track down the reference to the paint shortage at Mudros. Could I ask the name of the Hampshire officer, please?

Egypt, Well done! It looks like your "sandy yellow" explains the meaning of Drewry's reference to P&O colour.

Regards,
Philip

Philip,

Your PM in-box is full
I have just e-mailed you

regards
Michael

and do we all know why only the starboard side was painted?

Steve, see my suggestion in post 10 above
They might have expect problems from the starboard side, but perhaps thought that they were less likely from port

Thanks Michael I need to learn how to read. I totally agree with point one and always thought this to be the reason, camouflaged to make it hard to target from the Asiatic shore, both on the journey to the beach and after. As to point two I cannot understand this as the Clyde was only a stones throw away from the fort. It doesn't matter how well camouflaged it was, it would still be seen!

Steve,

Have to agree with your last
How far was it from the old fort to the resting place of the RC - 1000 yards, if that
I also think that the camouflage plan did not take into account the fact that (in all probability) the Ottoman artillery observers were not with the guns on the Asiatic shore, but sitting atop Achi Baba! and therefore had a completely different angle of view on the landing

regards

Michael

Thanks Michael,

My PM mailbox should be free now!

Krithia, as you've just said, I read somewhere that, as suggested by Michael in Point (1) of Post 10, the starboard side was painted to make it difficult to target the ship from the Asian Shore. (Upon re-reading this thread I realised that I missed out on the significance of points that Pals had made. Like you, I said to myself "I need to learn to read (properly)." Or at the very least to pay attention to what I'm reading )

Regards,
Philip

Michael,

That's a really interesting point about the location of the artillery observers.

Regards,
Philip

An interesting 'view' however I would disagree. From the vantage point on top of Achi Baba I am pretty sure than you cannot see Sedd Ul Bahr village, the fort or the River Clyde due to the high ground behind the village. Saying that, line of sight would not be necessary to shell V Beach, as I would imagine that the Turks would already know the precise range for their gunners.

Steve,

You may well be correct about the line of sight from Achi Baba to the beach being blocked by the intervening ground: I will have to get to the top of that hill some day to check.
... ... ... ... ... ... ...

On another point
It was mentioned earlier that the (Buff) paint may have run out, thus accounting for the curious camouflage design on the starboard side. I wonder whether or not this design was in fact deliberate?
When you compare the 'Buff' painted section with the position of the sally ports AND the suspended walkway which ran forward and down, they seem to coincide, thus giving a 'Buff' background to any khaki clad figures making the decent.
Perhaps the design was deliberate after all - any comments or thoughts on this welcomed

regards
Michael

The photograph below illustrates what I was driving at this morning
The gang-way and the P&O Buff painted section of the starboard side of the hull, do in fact coincide
providing a camouflage background for men in Khaki descending from the ship
Perhaps there was design at work here after all?

Umm, possibly however the men were not wearing khaki drill, as in buff/yellow colour as associated with Suvla and the Middle East during this landing. In April the 29th Div were dressed in serge 'service dress' uniform which was a much darker green/brown colour that would look closer to black from a distance / against the colour of the starboard side.

A great photo, what is the source?

Don't forget Steve, that the designation of the colour as P&O's 'Buff' (from their deck housing - not their funnels, which were black at this time) is taken from the ref in Drewry's letter - we do not have a colour swatch to compare. Marc has already reminded us that the ship was sometimes referred to as the Dun Cow, suggesting a darker (brownish) colour. There has also been mention made of a 'sandstone' colour. All of these, including Drewry's ref, are useful guides, but failing a colour snap turning up sometime, we are not going to know the exact shade of Buff/Brown/Sandstone used at Mudros to paint the River Clyde.

My point in my post above was to suggest that perhaps the design was not arrived at haphazardly as the paint ran out, but rather that someone had given some thought to the design scheme.

The picture used to illustrate my point was found on the web; it is a photo from The War Illustrated, 25 June 1915. Caption reads: One of the most romantic achievements of the war was the landing on Gallipoli of the British troops from the transport River Clyde. The ship was purposely run aground in order to facilitate rapid disembarkation of the soldiers through spacious doors cut in her side. This photograph shows the River Clyde, a new "Horse of Troy", stranded on the Dardanelles shore.
See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SS_River_Clyde2.jpg

regards
Michael