Hi
How many tanks were involded during hte battles of Gaza? I only find mention of it during the second one. How many were lost?
Thanks
Chris

Mate,

We talked about this some months ago. I did give a list of tanks used and those KO ed.

Check for some thing on the 2nd Gaza battle Question.

S.B

Try this link http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...murray,and,tank

Thanks friends
Chris

Mate,

As stated I do have the War Diary for the Tank unit in this battle and can give more info if needed.

Also anything you may want but sorry I don't have photos you are after or in a position to post them on net.

S.B

Here is a picture from a tank destroyed during the second battle of Gaza. It seems this tank, hit by the turkish artillery was left by his crew. Before they left they put fire into. Later this tank was used by turkish snipers and known as tank redout.
Are these informations correct?
Regards
Chris

this side would probably be better

Mate,

That Tank is "Sir Archibald".

It was attached to the 163rd Bde 54th Division for the attack on that redoubt.

The main Bn's are as shown on the last discussion were the 1/5th Norfolk Regt and the 1st Anzac Bn Camel Corps.

The 1st Anzac Bn suffered over 234 men during the day of battle the 1/5th Norfolk suffered over 600 men.

S.B

There are about 4 or 5 pictures of knocked out British Tanks at Gaza on the Australaian War Memorial site:

Aussie war memorial

Hit collections search and type in Gaza and use 1st world war drop menu-you get about 300 hits but it is worth trawling through just to see all the fascinating photos and artefacts.

Thank you friends for all these informations. I used to go to the AWM website were i found some pictures from the same taken from the other site. To check my informations I have some questions:


- What happens to the crew of "Sir Archibald"? (Lt Living, L/Cpl V. Hatherall,
Pte P. James, Pte J. Oldknow?)

- When & where was it exactly destroyed? (17th April 1917 ?)

- Where was tank redoubt, I can't succeed to find it on a map.

- How many tanks were involved during this battle and how many were lost? (7 involved and four destroyed?)

- which kind was this tank? MKI female?

Kindest regards
Chris

Mate,

Sorry my mistake.

The tank shown in the photo in HMLS Nutty not Sir Archibald.

There were only eight tanks of which Sir Archibald was destroyed on the 17th April.

Two tanks were given to each British Divison for the attack (53rd and 54th Div) with four given to the 52nd Div.

The 54th Div had HMLS Nutty and Sir Archibald.

These were attach during the movement up to Sheikh Abbas Ridge when it was KO by artillery fire.

The 54th Div dug in on SH-Abbas ridge and the Tank Redoubt was on the Khirbet Sihan line along the Gaza Beersheba road.

The Turkish Regt defending this line was the 165th so if you can find this regt you will see in the right area for the attack from Sh- Abbas ridge on the 19th April. To the left of the Tank redoubt was the Jack and Jill redoubts just in front of the village of Khirbet Sihan and the Waddi of that name. further to the Turkish left was the Atawine redoubt.

What happen to the tanks is shown on the other questions and list I gave and as far as I can find out all tanks were Mk 1 Female tanks.

I am unsure of the exact place the tank was KO on the 17th April but was on the way up to the Sh Abbas ridge.

Hope that helps

S.B

Mate,

Just to add.

The War diary shows Sir Archibald with Nutty procedded into action at 0430 17th April 1917 from Pt 300 on Dumbell Hill and proceded around Sh Abbas rigde at Pt Sq W 32 d were the tank was hit by artillery fire on the left track putting it out of action. This left only Nutty. Of the crew of Sir Archibald, Lt Living was WIA but both Pte Jones and Ferguson were WIA by burns and later died. Pte Oldknow was also WIA by burns to hands and helped with L/Cpl Hatherall and James save the wounded crew. These are the only names mentioned in the War Diary in regards to that tank.

52nd Div had HMLS Otazel, Kia-ora, Pincher and War Baby.

53rd Div had Tiger and Ole-Luk-Oie.

S.B

Not all of the tanks in Palestine were Mk Is or females. HMLS Archibald was a male for example. A small number of Mk IV tanks came into the Palestine theatre as well.

Robert

Agree with Robert. Some MkIIs were sent with the initial detachment.

I believe, however, the MkIVs were used at 3rd Gaza (or maybe even later...??).

Yes, Third Gaza for the Mk IVs. The only source I checked (Fletcher's recent Osprey on the Mk Is) mentions 'training tanks' were sent to Gaza, which were often Mk IIs. He does not confirm this in the section on Mk IIs. However, Fletcher's book 'The British tanks 1915-1919' says '[p]resumably Mark II tanks were ruled out on account of being unarmoured'. All the pics I have show the rounded ends to the forward track adjusters, typical of the Mk Is but I do not have photos of all tanks that were in Palestine.

Tank Redoubt was so named because the tank HMLS Nutty managed to get the Norfolk Regiment into the redoubt before being knocked out close by.

Robert

Robert,

Can you confirm those male tanks at 2nd Gaza.

I have seen no photos of any males there at that time. Even those KO are shown as Female.

But I would surposed there to be male tanks, its just I have never found any conclisive sourse for sure.

My inquirys to the RAC at Bovington led to no positive proof of any male tanks.

S.B

I have evidence for HMLS Sir Archibald and HMLS Pincher being male tanks. I also have a photograph of a male tank undergoing maintenance but it is not possible to determine the name of the tank.

Robert

Chris,

I have revived this old thread of yours to add the picture below
Looking at the shape of the hole in the tank’s front right-hand side
[just to the left of the soldier in your picture]
Then I would say that this seems to be the same tank,
but that the picture below was taken at an earlier time before more damage was done.

The picture comes from the collection of Fritz Groll who was the head of the photography and survey unit with the German Squadron 300 in Palestine. It belongs to Benjamin Z. Kedar and was reproduced by him in his book ‘The Changing Land between the Jordan & the Sea’

Regards
Michael D.R.

Nice picture Mickael, thank you. I don't forget you about what you know .
Kindest regards
Chris

can you please help I am new to this site so please bear with me . My grandfather was in the 1/5th Norfolks at gaza he was taken prisoner after the second battle of gaza for 2 years in which he was wounded do you know were he was taken? Thanks Mobbsy

Mate,

He was possibly taken during the assult on the main redoult (later called Tank Redoult) by the 1/5 Norforks and 1st Anzac Bn of the Camel Corps 19th April 1917.

Companies of these two Bn's and 8th Hampshire broke into the redoult about 0900 in the morning. They fought there untill around 1400 when the redoult was regained by the Turks.

There were some 22 soldiers of the Camel Corps (I have all names) captured either in the redoult or wounded out side. This was because no mans land was controled by the turks after the battle who collected many of the wounded.

I know the names of only two British officers captured that day and have only a report that mentions large numbers of British prisoners, but how many I have not been able to find out.

I am been after the names of prisoners for years but no luck.

S.B

I will look in my Dad's album. He was a memeber of crew in Otazel and has some 200 photos of his time in Palestine- but I am not too good with commputers !!- prisoners from tanks are mentioned in his narratives accompanying pictures- hopefully his album might clarify a few aspects. Mathew.

Matthew

I have only just picked up this thread; did you provide any more info and if, so were is it?

Thanx

Stephen

Mate,

My research into this Battle has found the crew of the Tank "Nutty" were taken prisoner during the fighting in Tank Redoubt or after.

Their Commander 2/Lt FC Carr died of his wounds in Captivity on the 24th April 1917 but as for what happened to the crew or their names I have no record.

Cheers

S.B

Steve

Many thanks; that is another small piece for the jigsaw

I have e-mailed Mathew to see if I can get more on Otazel's crew - will publish here if he gets back to me

Stephen

Not sure I will be able to help but may open a new line for you?

3rd Gaza, the 5th Beds attacked along the coastline & took Hasan Garden to Sheik Hasan on the coast, at the extreme left flank of the assault. They were expecting six tanks in support of the attack but one arrived at 6.30am (half an hour after the position had fallen), dropped some RE supplies off and broke down almost as soon as it had dropped the supplies off. Never made it into the action apparently. No mention of the other Tanks ever arriving, so they either broke too, or got waylaid as the other 162nd Brigade Btns struggled against Gun Hill & Rafa Trench?

Thanx Steve - more grist to the mill

You're a star

Stephen

The war diary for E Co. HBMGC (EEF) is less helpful for 3rd Gaza, since the tanks are described by number rather than name. According to Liddell-Hart, one tank captured Sea Post, flattened the wire from there to Beach Post and attacked Cricket Redoubt. He seems to be describing the action of the No.5 tank, which the war diary describes as having attacked trenches A5,6 and 7, eventually breaking down 1200 yards from Sheikh Hassan. The tank was abandonned by its crew, and the Turks attempted to demolish it by placing an explosive charge under a track. In the attached photo, I think the name HMLS OTAZEL can be made out. The beach location and pattern of damage suggest that this may be tank No.5. Mathew's information could be most helpful for filling in some gaps in the history of the tanks at Gaza.
Click to view attachment

Thanx Gerald (or should that be tanx)

Most useful as there is little detail on OTAZEL

Stephen

Hello Mathew,
I have just discovered this website and joined today when I saw your note.
My grandfather too was a crew member of HMLS Otazel - he was Fred Barker, the mechanic - I would be incredibly grateful for any copies of pictures your father may have - I don't know if this is acceptable to ask for this?
My mother has a couple of photos that I could send copies of if you are interested.
With thanks,
Rob.

Hi Rob - welocme to the Forum - what else can you tell us about your grandfather

Good afternoon Stephen,
His name was Frederick Barker born in 1888.
He was the mechanic on HMLS Otazel.
In civilian life he was a chauffeur / mechanic in Sheffield.
I know at some stage during The Great War he visited the Sphinx as we have a photo of it before they discovered it had paws (still buried in the sand!).
I'm afraid I don't know much about his activities during the war or where he was sent, but I will find more details when I see my parents next and get back to you.
I do have a miniature replica of the tank he made after the war.
I would appreciate any information you might have about the involvement of the tank and its crew - where and when - as this Forum seems quite complex and I've found few mentions of it.
Regards, Rob.

Thanx - I posted a picture of OTOZEL in reply to your other thread, now of course, I have found out it is the same as that posted above.

Matthew has never replied to my e-mail so we are both in the dark - however forum members have a habit of helping at the most unexpected times

Hi Stephen,
Many thanks for your effort and interest - if I find out anything alse I'll let you know,
Regards,
Rob.

Have checked the medal index cards to find your grandfather's deatils - there are several options which i need to reduce down
Did he have a middle name OR
Do you (by any luicky chance) know what his service number was ( it would be on his medals)

Stephen

Hello Rob,
Sorry it has taken me a while to get to grips with how the site works.
My Dad was John [ known as 'Will'] W.B.Farmer born 1896. There were two crews to Otazel [some first crew went home on special leave, commissions and med treatment etc-have photos of both crews]. Regret have been unable to find your Grandfathers name- was he with the workshop unit [M.T.A.S.C]?
I too have sphinx photo!-seems it was something done on 'days off'.
Regards, Mathew.

Mathew
welcome back to the Forum and for info on your father- would I be correct in saying that his service number was 302051.

Stephen

PS Many of us would like to see the crew phtos if you would be prepared to pest them

Hello Stephen [or is it 'steve'?] Dad's number is just about the only thing not given in his war album [ it is probably somewhere else in his effects as he also documents his activities WW2 [SOE stuff]-but I would be interested to know what else you have on him ! I am not 'computer literate'- just an old humbug luddite I geuss, so have to wait until offspring are about to assist in doing more than just writing.
I have seen the photo of Tank on beach- and yep! that's Otazel-but the story of her prescence and track being off is a little different and somwaht quirky.
Mathew

"I have seen the photo of Tank on beach- and yep! that's Otazel-but the story of her prescence and track being off is a little different and somwaht quirky."

Mathew

Sounds very interesting - can you tell us more?

Stephen

hi Stephen- well sort of quirky - according to Dad;s narrative for that day [ I've cut it down a bit], Otazel ended up on the beach following action against strongly entrenched enemy positions between Umbrella hill and sea. Having taken all objectives, Otazel was asked by infantry to give covering fire while they consolidated their position. This meant Orazel was required to go beyond their objective...and they ran into trouble. First a track became loose running foul of it's bearings and then they were mined. It was not until after they were mined that they left the tank. The next day the tank was salved by workshop boys and taken back to camp [ Belah]. The quirky bit being examination of the mine remnants revealed the explosive used by the enemy was a product from Glascow called Sampsonite.......the irony being that it was at Gaza that the Biblical giant Sampson did his stuff.
Mathew

Mathew - that is indeed most quirky; has any throught be given to publishing your Dad's record of his service? Indeed is the Tank Museum aware of it?

Stephen

PS. A tank named Delilah made the best progress of 4 tanks deployed into High Wood on 15th Sep 1916 - the frist tiem tanks were used. She was commanded by Lt William Henry Sampson who was born 1 Jan 1890 at Wytheville VA USA. His family moved to Canada and he was educated at a school in which he was a member of the OTC. He joined Canadian Militia (95th Saskateuwan Rifles) in 1911 adn qualified as a marksman. He worked as a Bank clerk in Regina and enlisted on 23 Oct 1914 in CEF, initially serving as a Pte soldier (73847) in No 7 Pl of B Coy 28th Cdn Inf Bn. Height 5 ft 10 in, of dark complexion with brown hair and black hair, he was a member of the Church of England. After initial training and deployment to the UK, he was commissioned into Northumberland Fusiliers on 15 Oct 1915. He was wounded on 15 Sep 1916 at High Wood and awarded the MC. For conspicuous gallantry in action. He fought his Tank with great gallantry, enfilading an enemy trench and capturing 15 prisoners. Promoted T/Lt on 1 Oct 1916 and T/Capt 12 Apr 1917, he was promoted to substantive Lt (N’land Fus) 21 Jan 1918. (ie as a regular soldier). He was appointed asst instructor 17th Jan 1920 probably with the Tank Corps; he seconded (whilst on probation) to the Indian Army Service Corpson 13 Aug 27. He was promoted Maj 20 Jul 1934; at some later point promoted Lt Col; then retired from IASC Spec Unemployed List 24 Mar 1944.

Hi Stephen,
A long time since I posted things on the site - work rather gets in the way! - his name I now now find was simply Fred Barker - no middle name and he was a St Sergeant with 1561 Army Ordnance Corps - would you be able to let me know his service number?
With thanks,
Rob.
(PS If you're interested, have posted some pictures of Gabbari Camp, an artillery piece and some photos of my Grandfather and friends in camp and locally - you'll find them by searching Gabbari & artillery)

Rob

G'day mate

Here's a quick reference:

T/1561 Staff Serjeant Fred Barker, Army Ordnance Corps; Catalogue reference WO 372/1; Image Reference 233166 / 25669

The above is from his MIC which is available online
Cheers

Bill

Hi Bill,

That's very kind of you.
I'm not very experienced at tracing these records, but have downloaded his war medal record.
There are some details I'm not sure about :-

Roll - R.A.O.C. / 101 1331
Page 3484

Then some writing which is unclear :-

Retd (1743 KR) 8000 / CH ??????

Would anyone know what these figures mean or where I might find further information.
Many thanks.

Rob.

Rob

G'day mate

It would be best if you posted the MIC here so we can see the writing in context. It makes it easier to understand what you are referring to - I suspect but they are assumptions. Seeing the real thing resolves the matter. If you find that task difficult - email the copy to me and then no problems, I will post it on this forum.

Cheers

Bill

Hi Bill,

I've attached the MIC below - I tried making it larger, but it became even less readable.
I think it reads ...

... rank has been amended from 'Sjt' to 'S.Sgt'
... in the 'Victory' row and 'Roll' column - R.A.O.C / 101 (superscript 1331 or B31)
... in the 'Victory' row and 'Page' column - 3484
... in the 'British' row in both 'Roll' and 'Page' columns - do (presumably ditto)
... in the 'Remarks' column, both 'Victory' and 'British' rows are bracketed together - Retd or Fold (1743 KR) 8000 CH
... at the bottom of the 'Remarks' column - Rank amended. Auth Encl 6K O (circle with line through) 8000/CH or AH or AW?

... but it's all pretty difficult to read.
Any help interpreting this would be very much appreciated and thank you for the time you're investing.
Regards,
Rob.

Click to view attachment

Rob

G'day mate

The -do- is short for ditto which you correctly guessed.

An amendment to a card needs a paper trail. The MIC is like a bank statement - it is not a primary source document but a secondary source document which summarises the chronology of primary source documents. To produce an entry, there must be an initiating document allowing an alteration or addition. Four initiating documents are involved here:

(1743 KR) 8000 CH
R.A.O.C / 101 (superscript 1331 or B31)
3484
Auth Encl 6K O

These amendments guarantee the authenticity of the document.

Cheers

Bill

Thanks Bill,
Any suggestions where I go next to track down the four documents?
This is the first time I've tried this sort of research and I don't even know the types of documents I would be looking for.
Regards,
Rob.

Rob

G'day mate

For you, this is where the trail ends. You need to be satisfied with the compilation. All the other records were destroyed by courtesy of Mr Hitler and Herr Goering in 1940. From these ashes the phoenix that was London arose. And talking of ashes, here in Oz ...

Basically, the MIC is the only record left of a serviceman from Britain. It stinks but there it is.

The only other sources would be local newspapers and parish records. One final source is a set of books published at the end of the Great War which includes a brief bio of thousands of Brits. It has about 12 Vols but can't recall the name.

Cheers

Bill

Hi Bill,
Looks like it's the end of the road here then - could be the last time we correspond, so a big thank you for your advice and time.
Regards,
Rob.