My grandfather William John Trace was one of the first into Jerusalem and I am in possession of a poster which he was ordered to take down when Jerusalem fell. I have no idea what is on it as it is in Arabic or maybe Turkish. I am wondering if anyone has any idea what the poster may be and where I could get it translated. I have photocopied it because the original is so old it is now falling apart.

Sue

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Hi there Gwyn

It would be great if you could get it translated - I have several photocopies - would it be possible to post one to you?

Sue

I've got Turkish work mates I can ask

George

Thanks George - it would be greatly appreciated.

Sue

Can you scan it and send per e-mail?

George

I am not the worlds most successful scanner and its taken me several attempts to get it to a size that will send...so I have had to crop some of it out..but if your friend could have a look at what I have send and see if it is translatable, that would be wonderful.

Many thanks

Sue

Sue,

It is fascinating that your family have been able to keep this souvenir for so long. When you get the translation, perhaps you can share it and the poster with the rest of the Pals

Looking forward to seeing it

Michael D.R.

Hi there Michael

My mother has the original copy safely tucked away - it is very fragile but yes it is wonderful that we have it. Unfortunately, my grandfather would not talk about the war, he said it was too horrible for our ears and he would only tell us stories about the funny things that happened.

Therefore, I am trying hard to find out which regiment etc he was in and exactly where he served and what battles he was in. We do know he was in France at first and sailed from Marseille to Egypt and was one of the first into Jerusalem. Eventually sailing home again in 1918/19 from Alexandria. The trouble is I know nothing about the military and so am having to learn it all as I go along and am getting a little baffled by it all - so many regiments /divisions/ units etc!!!

Anyway thanks for your interest, I most certainly will share the translation with you all if I manage to get it. I am so excited about the responses I am getting both regarding this poster and with other questions I have posted. I only found the site two days ago! Its amazing!

Sue

That is definitely arabic. Can't help there

George

The 2/20 Londons of 60th Division claimed to be the first unit to enter Jerusalem, and one member of the unit related the almost farcical course of events that culminated in the Mayor surrendering the city to British forces. If I remember correctly, the Mayor first asked two cooks if they would accept the surrender. They declined saying that someone more senior should do so, and went off in search of same. A sergeant arrived, and did likewise. Eventually, someone with sufficiently elevated rank shook hands with the Mayor and accepted.

I get this lovely mental picture of a British-style mayor swathed in scarlet robes, scroll in hand, standing folorn amid a succession of khaki-clad jobsworths.

That is a great story and it sure does conjure up a real jobsworth picture eh?

My Grandfather was from South Wales and so I dont think he would have been with the 2/20 Londons of the 60th Division. But I do remember him saying that he was one of the first into Jerusalem though...maybe another division went in at almost the same time? I am not clued up enough on it all yet - I am very new to military research having only started on Sunday!! But I am learning fast!!

Thanks for your input!

Sue

Thanks for trying George - maybe now its on here someone else will be able to translate it.

Sue

For Kate & Sue,

The att. photograph is dated 9th Dec 1917 and it shows the Mayor of Jerusalem, his white flag of surrender and Sgts F. G. Hurcomb and J Sedgewick of the 60th (London) Div.[their regiment is not stated]
The photograph is from B. Z. Kedar’s ‘The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea’ and as far as I can make out from the author’s notes the picture is credited to the Yad Izhak Ben Zvi archive in Jerusalem.
The flag is now held by the IWM in London. It was made from a bedsheet and had the Arabic inscription “The mayor of Jerusalem the noble, Hussein Hashem al-Husseini, 9 December 1917”

Regards
Michael D.R.

Thats brilliant Michael and thank you for sending it. If my grandfather wasnt with 60th London Div (which I am pretty sure he wasnt as he was Welsh) I know that he was right on their heals because he told us he was one of the first in.

Sue

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Many thanks Gwyn - this is great news!

I have received your email and will post a photocopy of the poster today.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Sue

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If he was welsh probably in the 53rd Welsh Division.

To add to Michael’s commentary on his photo:

Martin Gilbert states that Sgts Hurcomb and Sedgewick are of the 2/19th Battalion, London Regiment. The flag of truce is being brought by the Mayor, who has the walking stick and the Chief of Police, who is on the far right. He credits Hanna Safieh as the source for the photo.

Two days later, Allenby made his official entry into the city.

Martin Gilbert: "Jerusalem: Illustrated History Atlas"

The Atlas was published in conjunction with the Board of Deputies of British Jews and it is specifically about Jerusalem. (I obtained it at the Manchester Jewish Museum in Cheetham Hill – well worth a visit.) It has an interesting range of photos and, obviously, maps, starting with 70 AD.

Gwyn,

Many thanks for the extra details re the surrender photograph
I shall keep an eye open for the Gilbert History Atlas

I can add that the name of the police chief was Haj Abd al-Kadir al-Alami.
He and the mayor had been left in charge as the Ottoman governor had already retreated to Damascus. I believe that that city was the provincial capital at the time and Jerusalem pretty much a back-water. This may also account for the Syrian version of the script having been used in Sue’s poster.

Jill Hamilton’s book ‘God, Guns and Israel’ repeats Kate’s story about the cooks who she says were either looking for eggs, or for a well; apparently there are seven or more versions of this tale. She also says that after meeting the Sergeants, the civic party was passed on to Brigadier General C. F. Watson of 180th Brigade who in turn had to give back they keys to the city so that the mayor could present them in a dignified manner to Lieutenant General J. M. S. Shea, the commander of 60th Division

Just to complete the details Hamilton informs that the flag [sheet] came from a bed in the hospital run by Bertha Spafford Vester, the daughter of the founder of the American Colony [the latter is today a famous hotel and watering hole, popular with western journalists] The att picture of the flag was taken by Benjamin Z. Kedar and appears in his previously mentioned book

Regards
Michael D.R.

Thanks to all of you for your input it really is very interesting hearing all you have to say.

Gwyn I would love to see some of the photos when you have time. Its quite facinating. How odd that your friend found his name on the poster!!

Thomas - thanks for that - I had been searching through the various divisions and the 53rd Welsh did look a likely one so I will go and see what I can find out about it.

Michael - all of this information is putting flesh on the bones of the story and this is what I want. In doing my family tree I do not just want names, dates and so on - I want stories and personalities also so that people in years to come can see what these charactors were really like. This information is helping tremendously.

Thanks all of you.

Sue

I was wondering if I too could request a translation of an Aradic document in my Grandfathers belonging, I don't have a clue what it is about. Would be very happy to Email document to anyone who could help thanks

Matt

Matt / Sue
It seems bizarre, given these things were only written 90 years ago, but it is very difficult to find someone who can actually translate stuff from WW1 era Palestine - I have some trench art with inlaid Arab script which I wanted translating. Eventually sent it to a Mullah, who has contacts with Islamic scholars etc etc and who swore blind 'it wouldn't be a problem' - never heard from him again !!! I am interested to see if Gwyn's contacts have more luck than I did !!!
Jim

Oh Gwyn

I hadn't thought of that!!

I DO hope not (giggle) after all the trouble you've gone to and all the anticipation!!

Sue

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I hope that one of your contacts is able to help and that it wont be too much trouble for you or them.

Thanks again Gwyn

Sue

If it's from WWI Palestine, I would expect it to be in Turkish, which in those days was written using the Arab script. It was Ataturk who changed the writing of Turkish from Arabic to Roman letters, thereby deliberately cutting 'modern' Turkish off from it's past. If you get nowhere with your Arabic contacts, try contacting the history dept. at Istanbul or Ankara universities and see if someone there can help you. Or try the Turkish dept. at an English university for someone who can read pre-Ataturk script.

Christina

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Gwyn, you devil, you made me splurt my coffee all over the keyboard!!
marina

Gwyn thats twice you've made me laugh today!! Sorry I havent answered before but I only just discovered that I had TWO pages of postings and so hadnt read them all (Im new to this game you know so dont laugh at me please!) Thanks for the email, I look forward to hearing more from your VERY educated middle eastern friends!!

Christina - thats a good suggestion if Gwyn's friends cant get it translated - if you know any addresses...please let me know. Thanks.

Marina - she made me laugh uncontrollably too and I was alone in the house....it felt very strange laughing out loud on my own!!

and lastly - Egbert - please dont be too hard on Gwyn .... they arent shadowy underworld illegals workers after all!!

Sue

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Enough is enough! You're placed effective immediately on the "persona non grata" list for Langley
[QUOTE=egbert,Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:11:21 +0000] did?!


Egbert, please don't make Gwyn persona non grata. She made me LAUGH in a month that has been very dire indeed. Gwyn, if Egbert insists, you must move north near me where you'll be appreciated!
Marina

Egbert

is that Langley near Eastbourne?

Gwyn,
don't worry Seaford will look after you, us northeners have to stick together (even if i do live in the south!)

Mandy

Silly me - I thought you meant LangleyBaston.

Could I add something, please, in the hope it won’t be taken the wrong way.

I don’t mind being teased (by Egbert or anyone else), but the reason I got involved in this thread was to try and help Sue with her special document. The people I can ask to help are real humans for whom the threat of surveillance, intimidation and ‘disappearance’ are very real in the regimes they have fled. None of us know how far reaching a comment can be, however funny and light-hearted; and this is the Internet.

In fairness to them, I am going to focus on the point of the thread and I would really appreciate any comments staying clear of what might be sensitive areas for the people I know and care about.

Please take this in the spirit in which it is meant.

Gwyn

May I speak in support of Gwyn on this point and ask that forum members exercise a little more discretion in their postings. I hope that my sense of humour is as broad as the next person’s, however it is easy to forget that not everyone who uses this forum lives in a western style democracy and that some security agencies are more pro-active than others. As we saw in Washington only yesterday, even those who napped up to 9/11 are now awaking from their slumbers. Let us not overlook either, the good work done at Cheltenham, where an investigation need not be based upon sound logic or even horse-sense, but triggered simply by the use in a communication of certain key words.

Remember the former US Sec of State Dr. H.K; ‘Even paranoids have enemies.’

I hope that we can now return to the original question here

Regards
Michael D.R.

Here are the two documents I mentioned in an earlier post that I was hoping someone could identify what they were about. They are both sides of one piece of paper. Any help would be great, thanks

Matt

Sue,

I may be able to find a Turkish contact that can help. May I send him your email address?

Christina

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Thanks Christina - yes if you think he can help please do.

Gwyn - thanks for your continued endeavours - its proving quite a difficult thing to translate isn't it? Of course if a translation comes from any other quarter I will let you know immediately!

Look forward to hearing from you.

Sue

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... indeed, they most certainly were 19th Londons. From my database:

Sgt Frederick George HURCOMB (numbers 3876 and 611058)
believed to have enlisted about mid April 1915
Wounded 20/02/18 at Talat ed Dumm
resided 60, Grafton Rd, St Pancras

Sgt James Walter SEDGWICK (numbers 4655 and 611488)
believed to have enlisted about late May 1915
resided 14 Theobald St, New Kent Rd, Southwark

Both men went to France with 2/19th when it went overseas with 60 Division on 24/06/16, and then served in Salonika (Dec 1916 - June 1917) and then in Egypt and Palestine until the end of the war.

John Player and Sons produced a series of 50 cigarette cards of 'Uniforms of the Territorial Army' in about 1940. Card number 36 is of a Sgt of the 2/19th and is clearly identifiable as one of the men in the photo Michael posted above.

Swni, it is quite possible that your relative was with a London unit, as 60 Division received a large draft of 3,000 RAMC men in late May 1916 shortly before it went overseas (see this thread). Many of these men were Welsh, and some ended up in the 2/19th.

The 19th London Regiment had an annual Jerusalem Dinner on the saturday closest to the capture of the city - usually the first in the month. This tradition was maintained throughout the interwar period, though I dont know whether it lapsed immediately after 1945. Reports of these dinners in the regimental journal often include comments such as "all ranks were particularly delighted to see Taffy Jones who made the long journey from Ebbw Vale to be with his old comrades".

The key to Jerusalem eventually ended up with the 20th Londons and apparently exists somewhere in a storage room in a drill hall somewhere in London. I am trying to track it down.

Charles

Charles,

Many thanks for the extra details re the sergeants
Your search for the ‘key to Jerusalem’ has a hint of a latter day Indiana Jones story
The very best of luck with your quest

Regards
Michael D.R.

My apologies Gwyn

I am new to this having only come onto the forum a week Sunday for the first time and never having used any forum before I am obvously not aware of all the protocol that goes with it. The last thing I want to do is offend anyone I am only hear to see if I can solve several puzzles within our family and to help others if I have information that may be of use to them.

It has upset me that I appear to have offended you. I am very grateful that you have undertaken to try and get this document translated for me and am very excited about the prospect. I have also been grateful to all who have taken time to read my posts and contribute their own ideas and suggestions, I do not like to be rude to anyone so try to respond to all who take part. I will bear in mind what you have said in the future when responding to other messages. Please give my apologies to your friends and thank them for their efforts.

Sue

I'm the one who's upset Gwyn, Sue, not you. Sorry Gwyn, I didn't mean to do that and wouldn't have looked at it like that if it was I who had asked friends to help in the first place.

Sue, if you'd prefer to let my offer lie until Gwyn's friends have had a go, that's fine by me.

Christina

Yes thats fine by me Christina and probably the best idea. I certainly didnt mean to cause problems!

Sue

Swni
Try to contact Murat CULCU c/o Denizler KITABEVI
at :
turgayerol@turk.net
or at
studyografik@hotmail.com

Mr. Culcu translated the diary of Lt. Mehmed fasih
of the 5th. Imperial Ottoman Army from the old
Ottoman script to modern Turkish and it was then
translated into English by Hasan Basri DANISMAN
Bluedog

Thanks very much for the info Bluedog - If Gwyn's friends are unable to translate at least I have a few other people who may be willing to try. Its much appreciated.

Sue

Did this poster ever get translated? I'm mad with curiosity!
Marina