The CWGC does not allow civilian casualties of the Great War to appear on its register, whereas WW2 casualties are remembered. I would like to start a list, commemorating those who died, or were killed, as a direct result of the war.

Chris Baker has kindly agreed to move this into the new National Projects section.

The list would include civilians (male or female) who died in, for example:

Air Raid
Coastal bombardment
Passenger of a ship sunk by mine, U-boat, or enemy destroyer etc
Auxilliaries who were working in military hospitals, and died.
Voluntary services, working with the forces, but not recognised on the CWGC register.
Accidentally killed in a road accident involving a military vehicle etc.
This could also include servicemen who were discharged during 1914-1918, in order that they could be hanged for crime etc.

I would also like to hear of people who were injured, but survived.

While I would like to concentrate on British (commonwealth) citizens, I would be happy to hear of other nationalities which prove useful to US, French, and German (etc) members who might like to start a similar project.

I would require as much, if not more, information as found on the CWGC register:

Name
Age
Next of Kin
Job title (where applicable eg Nurse, Infant etc)
Place of burial (if known and/or applicable)
Circumstances of death.
Other details as known.

Post away, please.

Pete

To kick off....

Martha Taylor
Aged 72
Spinster
Date of death 19.1.15
Buried in Holy Trinity Cemetery, Caister-on-Sea
Buried next to her twin sister, Jane Eliza.
First civilian casualty of an airship raid (L3)
Killed at her home in St Peter's Square, Great Yarmouth, when returning from the grocers.

This is close to my heart - details to follow - if there is anyway I can help, please let me know.
Ian

http://www.carlscam.com/warmem/silvertownw.htm

http://www.met.police.uk/history/remembrance3.htm

Give these 2 a try

All The Best

Chris

George Frearson
Private in the 2nd (Volunteer) Battalion, King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment
Died March 1917
Buried in Egton (St. Mary) Churchyard, Cumbria
Commemorated on the Egton (St. Mary) Church War Memorial, Egton-cum-Newland, Cumbria.

Will provide more details after some searching.

Andy.

A very good idea.

I will look out the details of my father's cousin who died in a Zeppelin raid on London (September 1915) - I've got a copy of the death certificate somewhere.....

Pete

On 13 June 1917 a German Bomb killed 18 children in their school at Poplar, East London. This is a photo of the memorial which was raised by public subscription.
Sorry I have no details of names.

Dave

Found this whilst surfing:

Name :Edwin Thomas Scuse

Age: aged 52

Next of Kin : Wife Caroline

Job title (where applicable eg Nurse, Infant etc)

Place of burial (if known and/or applicable)

Circumstances of death: He was killed in London during the first World War by a German bomb outside the General Post Office

Other details as known : see http://www.ledwinhall.care4free.net/scuse.html

More surfing !

Sad details of the children killed as mentioned in Dave's post above.
Louise Annie Acampora (5)
Alfred Ernest Batt (5)
Leonard Charles Barford (5)
John Percy Brennan (5)
William Thomas Henry Challen (4)
Alice Maud Cross (5)
William Hollis (5)
George Albert Hyde (5)
Grace Jones (5)
Rose Martin (11)
George Morris (6)
Edwin Cecil William Powell (12)
Robert Stimson (5)
Elizabeth Taylor (5)
Rose Tuffin (5)
Frank Winfield (5)
Florence Lilian Wood (5)

More details at http://www.ppu.org.uk/peacematters/pm2002/pm2002_93.html

7th March 1918 twelve people in Maida Vale were killed when a bomb was dropped from a German Gotha. Five large houses in Warrington Crescent were destroyed. Among those killed was Mrs Lena Ford who wrote the words for "Till the Boys Come Home" and her son Walter. It's thought that the bomb,which is said to have been the largest to have landed on London during WW1, was aimed at the searchlights that had been set up on Paddington Recreation Ground.
23 people were injured.

19th May 1918 another bomb landed on The Carlton Tavern, Carlton Vale, Maida Vale, killing the landlord and his son.

The Poplar Memorial was designed by A.R.Adams and is approx. 10 ft. high.

RT

I think this is a great idea - hope I can assist. How do we go about collating the information? I know of a few from secondary sources but hopefully we could determine a methodology for this?

Kind regards


Mike s

If people post what they know, or have found, on this thread, I believe it will be possible to confirm/add/delete information.

But I am open to suggestions if anyone has better ideas.

A really excellent, well researched web page about the air raid on Folkestone, 25th May 1917.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~f...ntinestreet.htm

Who were the Canadian troops killed...??

May be worth checking "A Glint in the Sky" by Martin Easdown & Thomaas Genth, Pen & Sword for more about the Folkestone Raid.

Have complied this from the Canadian Virtual War Memorial. All are buried at Shorncliffe Mil Cemetery

342862 Gnr Brown, William CFA Reserve Bde

2085320 Gnr Bruce, James Alexander CFA Reserve Bde Age 21

1250216 Gnr Desaleux, Jules Benjamin Alfred 76th Bty CFA Reserve Bde Age 29

922065 LCpl Doig, Arthur 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt) Age 24

273124 CQMS Jenner, Oron Alfred 3rd Reserve Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt) Age 26

922836 Pte MacDonald, Robert 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt) Age 19

922562 Pte McArthur, James 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt)

922225 Pte McNair, Hugh Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt)

1251128 Gnr McNulty, James Desmond CFA Reserve Bde Age 25

875090 Pte Merchant, Albert William Canadian Inf (Western Ontairio Regt)

922556 Pte Padley, Frank 11th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt) Age 24

922514 Pte Pelluet, Ralph 11th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt)

922299 Pte Sutherland, John 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt) Age 31

continued below

922331 Pte Tennyson, Ernest 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Central Ontairio Regt)

226191 Pte Yeo, Lloyd Garfield Canadian Reserve Cav Regt

All the 15 above died on 25/5/1917

The following 2 soldiers died on 26/5/1917

2085324 Gnr Arbuckle, Bert CFA Reserve Bde Age 38

875420 Pte Marshall, Charles 184th Bn 200th Bn Canadian Inf (Western Ontairio Regt)

All The Best

Chris

It might be worth contacting Jim Strawbridge whose primary interest is women that served in some capacity during WW1 - he might have info on civilian workers that died as a direct result of the war.

A little more info than you requested but you might be interested in these newspaper articles I have amongst my notes that concern the death of Mrs Elizabeth Maxted in the Folkestone Air Raid of May 1917.

CHATHAM, ROCHESTER & GILLIGNHAM NEWS, 2 June 1917:

"Among the victims of the recent air raid at Folkestone was Mrs Maxted, the eldest daughter of Mr and Mrs J. Kitney of Shakespeare Road, Rainham (Kent). The deceased, who was 31 years of age, was the wife of Mr J. Maxted, butcher, of Dover Road, Folkestone. As no bodily injuries were sustained the deceased had evidently died suddenly of shock."

.. and a little more detailed including mention of an unknown sister-in-law that lost both legs in this raid ...

EAST KENT GAZETTE, 2 June 1917:

"One of the victims of the German air attack on Folkestone on Friday in last week, was a Rainham woman. This was Mrs Elizabeth Maxted, the wife of Mr Maxted , the manager of a butcher’s shop in Dover Street, owned by Mr Scott. Mrs Maxted, who was 31, was a daughter of Mr and Mrs James Kitney of 27 Shakespeare Road, Rainham. Accompanied by a married sister, Mrs Lilian Smith, and her little boy aged 5 years, Mrs Maxted had just come out of a draper’s shop in Tontine Street when the bombs began to drop. The sister caught hold of the boy and ran away telling Mrs Maxted to do the same. She looked back to see if her sister was following when a bomb exploded near the poor woman, who shouted “Oh”, and was killed instantly. The relatives saw the body of the deceased in the mortuary on the following day, and on the following day another sister came up from Folkestone and broke the terrible news to her parents. Mr Maxted's’ place of business is not far from where his wife was killed. The deceased was buried on Wednesday and the father and mother went to Folkestone for the sad ceremony. Mr Maxted had a sister-in-law who had both legs blown off in the terrible affair. Mr and Mrs Kitney’s five daughters all lived in Folkestone, and Mr Kitney has for years been employed at the Rainham Waterworks."

Am I right in assuming the accumulated info will eventually be available via the mother-site? (There was a munitions explosion that killed a reported 105 workers in Faversham in April 1916 that would interest me).

Thanks teapot. Excellent page.

Robbie

Two more that may be of interest.

1) Ida Barton, aged 9, was killed when playing in her garden at the time HMS Princess Irene blew up in July 1915, from an internal explosion (believed faulty mine - she was a minelayer and 500 mines had just been primed). Ida was struck on the head by a metal plate that had been blown from the "Irene".

2) A Mrs Mary Longley died in an air raid although I cant find my original note and the date of the newspaper entry. I believe she was a member of the Rainham (Kent) Longley family (the family had run a nursery since the early 1800's and were world renowned for their roses, by Royal Appointment etc.)

Civilian victims of the Zeppelin raid on Wednesbury, 31st January, 1916:

Mary Ann Lee (59)
Rachel Higgs (36)
Frank Thompson Linney (36)
Susan Howells (30)
Matilda Mary Bart (10)
Joseph Horton Smith (37)
Ina Smith (7)
Nellie Smith (13)
Thomas Horton Smith (11)
Mary Emma Evans (5)
Edward Shilton(33)
Betsey Shilton (39)
Albert Gordon Madeley (21)
Charles Cope
Rebecca Suton


Tom

it's a bit strange that the CWGC should take this attitude to WW!. Anyone know why it is?

The French ARMY casualty site has civilian deaths caused directly by the Germans listed. Unfortunately, the only way to interrogate the database is by name, which means you need to know the answer before you ask the question. However, if you do get there you get a copy of the death certificate.

The reason for death is often shown as, 'shot by the Germans', 'bayoneted by the Germans', etc. and, of course most seem to date from 1914. Difficult to know whether this applies to all as you have to know the name... or find it by mistake.

Bu it's interesting. Good luck with the project. If you come across anyone with a Luxembourg connection, could I ask for details, please. I'm trying to do an inventory of them.

I don't think there was any malicious, or uncaring intentions here. There simply wasn't a department set up to record and report civilian deaths (as a result of war) in the UK in the Great War.

The CWGC's understandable requirements for 'proof' would require death certificates for the thousands (yes that's right) of casualties, which would not be feasible - unless someone can help me pull off a deal with the GRO......

Excellent - we have some photos in the family somewhere of that branch of the family that were lost.
Ian

As RT says, they was no infrastructure to record civilian deaths related to war in WW1.

When CWGC was formed in 1917, no such obligation was included. However, during WW2 a supplementary charter was promulgated giving them the obligation to record all Commonwealth civilian deaths caused by enemy action (but no obligation to maintain graves). This was promoted by Winston Churchill himself.

As it does not appear in their Charter, CWGC cannot engage in recording such WW1 deaths, even now. However, should their charter be amended to add this duty, they could undertake the work.

Remember that CWGC is NOT a UK organisation. It is a multi-national Commonwealth organisation and any amendment to their charter must be agreed by all six member countries and must apply to all six countries.

Well done for starting this project, RT. It has been neglected for too long. Don't forget the civilian passengers aboard ships sunk by enemy action (Lusitania etc). Casualty lists for many of these are available.

Sorry Terry, I can't accept this. Perhaps they should be included regardless of what their charter states. The information on caualties is available in the public domain; some of it has been detailed here. Why treat WW1 civilian casualties as second class compared to WW2 civilian casualties?
This is hypocracy of the highest order

Ian Bowbrick

(Civialian relatives lost in both World Wars)

Ian

You are missing the point.

CWGC would be in breach of their Royal Charter to undertake anything not included in their responsibilities and could be charged with misuse of funds etc. It is called obeying the law.

I agree with you that they should be included (and CWGC may well agree) but it is not in their gift to change it.

Your indignation should be directed at those who can bring about a change - the governments of UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and India. Not an easy task.

If RT's project blossoms, lobbying of those in the six countries who can propose a charter change and push it through would be far more effective than 'bashing' CWGC for not going beyond its permitted remit.

Many of us lost civilian relatives in this conflict and would like to see them remembered. You are not alone there.

Positive thought is required rather than negative. Why don't you write to the the CWGC representative members from each country to set the ball rolling? They are the links with the political bods who hold the power.

I think it is very possible for the charter to be changed - and that is why I am asking for the information to be given in the format used by the CWGC.

It is the onus for proof that will be the sticking point.

I don't believe there is a point, though, in lobbying for change when the project is in its infancy.

I agree RT. That is why I said 'If RT's project blossoms'.

Good luck to you. With you all the way.

Forum, do we include deaths at Munitions Factories? The staff wore badges saying they were on War Service.

If we include Munitions Factories, are there other 'groups' of civilians (I take note and of course agree with shipping deaths caused by mines etc) who have not been mentioned...?

Are WW2 police casualties recorded on the CWGC....?? If so then the Great War Police/Specials/Transport Police should also be included.... ??

Terry - Thanks for your reply - This will keep for now.
Ian Bowbrick

RT

The WW2 civilians recorded had to die through enemy action - not war work.

Therefore police, fire services, ARP, ambulance drivers, Royal Observer Corps, factory workers etc who died due to non-enemy action are not included. However, if they were in a bombing incident, then they did count. I expect there were some 'fine-line' decisions along the way!

Deaths had to be by bombing, shelling, etc, sinkings by the enemy, death in concentration camp, execution by the enemy etc etc. - ie direct enemy action rather than events incidental to the war such as factory accidents.

I might be stating the obvious here so give me a good slap if necessary

dont forget Nurse Edith Cavell as she is not listed by the CWGC

All The Best

Chris

How are ship casualties handled, in WW2 - so I can follow the same principles?

For example, on the Lusitania (British ship) there are casualties from the UK, USA, and Canada (and other countries).

So, in WW2, does the CWGC register go by nationality (ie non Commonwealth casualties are excluded)?

What happens when, for example, you have a British born woman who is married to an American, or an American born woman who is married to a British man, and she died on a British ship sunk by torpedo. Commemorated or not?

Does the registered port of the ship have any significance? So does the fact that it is a British ship mean that all casualties (regardless of nationality) should be on a register?

Also, if an American woman was killed in the Blitz in London, by a German bomb, is she commemorated?

RT

It is the nationality of the person that is the deciding factor (as per their passport) - not where they lived or where even born.

Only Commonwealth nationalities are included. The port of registry of a ship is irrelevant. So an Australian civilian dying on an American registered ship which was torpedoed would be included but a French civilian on the same ship would not. Likewise, a French civilian on a British ship would not.

Hope that is clear.

Just about clear, I think....

So if a woman (born in London) marries an American man, is she British or American. It sounds like she is American....??

RT

I think she probably would have been included. 'Nationality' was a bit looser in those days.

If she died aboard ship, the info would have been supplied by the Board of Trade and they would have taken the nationality from the ship's manifest. So it would depend on what she put on the forms!

We permit dual nationality in the UK and so I believe she would have remained British for these purposes - although probably not if she had taken out US citizenship.

Pete,
Have a lot on Southend Air Raids which i will post. First one here for you

Mrs Agnes Frances Whitwell
60 years old
Mr. George Whitwell (injured by the same bomb)
Salvation Army worker
buried Sutton Road Cemetery, Southend
House bombed (120 North Road, Southend) in an air raid by Zeppelin LZ38(Hauptmann Linnarz) in early hours of 10th May 1915

see attached file.

Andy

Pete,
Injured in the same air raid on 10th May was :
"The soldier injured at the house in York Road was Corporal Hanney of the Border Regiment, who was in a room with his wife and baby. Every bit of glass was blown out of the house both back and front, but the bedroom remained intact, though the glass blew all over the soldiers head and literally peppered his face. The soldier was medically attended to."

Quote from the Southend and Westcliff Graphic May 11th 1915, special Zeppelin Supplement.

Andy

Why not speak to the CWGC direct, I did late this afternoon, what an interesting bunch of people they are, so informative and more than happy to set a few issues straight.

Ian Bowbrick

Such as....??

Come on, Bowbie. Spill the beans.....

Peter

Could I ask what you mean please

All The Best

Chris

Pete,
Heres another one although i am having a bit of trouble getting full details as she was not from Southend.

Miss May Fairs
Lived Old Ford Road, Bow, family had a weekend bungalow in Westbourne Grove, Westcliff On Sea.
Killed 26th May in an Zeppelin air raid on Southend by LZ38.

The Times, Friday, May 28th, 1915

Zeppelin Raiders
A Second Visit To Southend
Woman Killed in the Street

Another Zeppelin Raid was made on Southend. Miss May Fairs, the daughter of a Dental Surgeon, living in Old Ford Road, Bow, was killed during the raid. The family have a bungalow in Westbourne Grove, Westcliff, and Miss Fairs, with her Mother, Sister and Sister in law was returning from the railway station after meeting Mr. Fairs, who had arrived by a late train. Miss Fairs was walking arm in arm with her Sister in law, the other members of the party being a few yards in front. They were all hurrying to get under cover, for their was a Zeppelin immediately overhead which seemed to them to be following them wherever they went. A bomb fell directly on Miss Fairs killing her instantly.

Andy

Pete,

Marion (Queenie) Pateman
aged 7
Zeppelin raid by LZ38 on 26th May, 1915
Buried Sutton Road Cemetery, Southend

Pateman, Marion
"Queenie" Pateman was seven years old, andlived at 3, Broadway Market, Southend On Sea. She was killed during the Zeppelin Raid on Southend of 26th May 1915. The bomb fell throught the ceiling of the room in which she was sleeping, landing on the bed and at once setting the room ablaze. Her 16 year old sister rushed upstairs to reach her, but was greatly hampered by a machine which prevented her reaching the child. She, however, managed to get the little girl away alive, but very badly burned, as were here hands. Their father, Rifleman J. Pateman was serving with the 15th Kings Royal Rifle Corps, and in July 1915, the Regiment, which had been much impressed by the sisters bravery, honoured her at an open air concert held at Belhus Park Camp, Avely. Lt-Col. G.S. St.Aubyn presented her with an attache writing case, accompanied by three cheers from the Battalion.
See Grays & Tilbury Gazette 17/7/15 , Southend Standard 29/5/15 In Memorium notice.


Andy

Pete,



Miss Florence Smith
Westminster Drive, Southend
Killed dring the Zeppelin Raid LZ38 on Southend 26th May 1915 by a piece of anti aircraft shell outside her house.
Buried Sutton Road Cemetery

Smith, Florence
Mrs Florence Smith lived at "Farndon", Westminster Drive, Westcliff On Sea, and was killed in the Zeppelin raid on Southend of 26th May 1915 when struck on the head by a piece of shell fired by an anti-aircraft gun.
Southend & District Roll of Honour 1914 - 1921.

The Times, Friday, May 28th, 1915.
The woman injured , Miss Florence Smith, of Westminster Drive, Westcliff, was standing at her front door when something dropped in the middle of the road eight or ten yards away, and she received severe wounds from flying fragments.
Five naval aeroplanes went up from Eastchurch and Grain, but returned without seeing the Zeppelin, two were damaged on landing.

Andy

A very good idea, and long overdue.

I have a memorial card that lists some members of a London family killed in a WW1 air raid. I will post it as soon as I find it, it is pasted in a VADs autograph book that I own.

IMHO the WW2 period details held by the CWGC are not complete either. How can they be when things were "hushed up" for political reasons?

On their site the "Lancastria Association" say:

"On the 17th of June 1940 the 16,000 ton Cunard liner Lancastria lay 5 miles off St Nazaire and embarked troops, RAF personnel, and civilian refugees, including women and children, who were being evacuated from France, which was then on the verge of collapse. The exact number on board may never be known, but almost certainly exceeded 6000; some estimates were as high as 9000. The Lancastria was attacked and hit by bombs from German aircraft. The ship sank rapidly and according to the estimate of the Captain, only around 2500 of those on board were saved.

Owing to the scale of the tragedy, Winston Churchill forbade publication of the news in the interests of public morale, and hence the story of the Lancastria has never been generally known, although it is Britain's worst maritime disaster."

See: http://www.lancastria-association.org.uk/

How many of the 446 Anglo-Italian civilian dead from the "Arandora Star" are listed? See here for list: http://gallery.quotidiano.net/documenti/caduti/1-50.htm

There were also a lot of German/Austrian refugees, mostly Jewish, drowned on the "Arandora Star". I don't know if a list of these exists, outside of the "guestimate" made at the time.

and so on...

I might be 'off track' here.

However, in late 1917 the "Granville" Canadian Hospital moved from Kent to Buxton, Derbyshire. The Hospital took over at least four of the big hotels in the town. IIRC it had left Kent in order to avoid German air raids.

If this hospital was based at Folkestone, some of the dead Canadians could have been associated with it, either staff or patients. The Hospitals War Diary is online, and might say something on this.

I have posted postcards of some of the hotels used by this hospital in this forum - in the section which is attempting to build up a list of WW1 hospitals in the UK.

********************************************************************

I have now checked, and I was wrong. Although the hospital moved to Buxton from Kent to avoid air raids, it had been based at Ramsgate.

In January 1917 the Brunner Mond Explosive Factory at Silvertown (Essex) caught fire and blew up.
Among the dead were Station Officer Betts, Fireman Yabsley and Fireman Snell all from Silvertown Fire Station.
I have a feeling they can't be included as they were all engaged in the early stages of fire-fighting (in the case of SO Betts he was trying to get hose run out) when they were all killed in the blast.
Fireman Snell's house was also demolished in one of the blasts.

Picture: SO Betts & Fm Yabsley

And Fm Snell