Does any know of any research done on the number of ex soldiers that committed suicide after WW1. I know it may be a distressing subject for some but I have been researching two great uncles of mine who I never met, that killed themselves after serving. One died 5 years after the war and the other 30. It was never talked about by the family. In New Zealand we were and still are, a farming country and I often heard the expression, " he drove his tractor off a cliff." meaning he had killed himself by whatever means. These poor souls would never be included in any casuality lists but are just as deserving of rememberance as those who fell on the battlefield. Could some one let me know of any studies done as I am sure this was somthing that happened in hundreds of thousands of families and was regarded as a stigma therefore rarely mentioned.

I don't know of any studies on ex-WW1 veterans. Suicide is not confined to veterans. A key question, therefore, is whether suicide is any more common in veterans. I am sure there will have been more recent studies that answer this question. It is not my field but I am sure that others will know.

This in no way reduces the significance of the comment you made about affording these men the same respect at colleagues killed in action.

Which part of New Zealand do you live in?

Robert

See below, a suicide. My article about him is in Stand To! # 56. Despite the fact he was AWOL from IS Army at time of death he was given a military funeral and is recognized on the local - Fayette County - and Kentucky memorials. He had won a DCM with 87th Bn CEF. His book with my foreword and afterward is back in print available from CEF Books and Tom Morgan books.
He is mentioned 11 times in Joseph Persico's new Eleventh Hour book.

When I did my nurse training years ago, during the psychy' section it was mentioned during one of our lectures that post war suicide rates amongst ex soldiers were so bad, that the figures were surpressed to a degree, and our lecturer thought a good book could be written on the subject.. Ah, if I only had tme.

Hi sapper6



Just confirming Robert's quote about it not being confined to veterans. There have been at least eight suicides of men from the town where I live over the last 15 or so years that I know of, and none were armed forces. I do not know if the rates of suicide have increased in modern times ?

Annette

Summary statistics for suicide in the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland over the past 10 years are available on the Samaritans website.

Suicide trends over the last 10 years show:

* a 9% decrease in the United Kingdom overall
* a 9% decrease in England and Wales
* a 27% increase in Northern Ireland
* a 13% increase in Scotland
* a 26% increase in the Republic of Ireland

Increases are attributable to a rise in male suicide.

I'm sure the experience of what we now refer to as post traumatic stress disorder in soldiers after demobilisation would have elevated the post war suicide rate although I don't have any figures to hand.

Gary

It might be worth tracking down a copy of Peter Barham's recently published Forgotten Lunatics of the Great War. The book's synopsis (copied from Amazon's web site) looks as though it might have some bearing on your question, if not numbers then possible causes.

Gary


Although the shell-shocked British soldier of Word War I has been a favoured subject in both fiction and nonfiction, focus has been on the stories of officers, and the history of the rank and file servicemen who were psychiatric casualties has never been told. This profoundly moving book recounts the poignant, sometimes ribald histories of this neglected group for the first time. Peter Barham draws on reports from the front lines, case histories, personal letters, and war pensions files to trace the lives and fortunes of a large cast of ex-servicemen who suffered mental breakdowns. He describes the confines of their asylums, the reactions of families to their relatives' plight, the turmoil of the soldiers when they returned home - and the uphill struggle they faced trying to secure justice from the bureaucratic labyrinth that was the Minitstry of Pensions. His book gives a new perspective to the impact of the Great War and to current controversies about disputed postwar maladies.

According to the Charity Combat Stress there have been more suicides among ex service men who served in the first Gulf war than service men actually killed in the war.

After the Great war the ministry of Pensions refused to pay a pension any soldiers family who had committed suicide. Suicide was considered as some form of misconduct and only in exceptional circumstances would a pension be paid.

However, in the Great War the Army Medical Dept. having been jolted into upgrading its scientific image, conceded that there was a sound mental basis to the verdict of 'temporary insanity' and hence took the view (unless it could be proved that the man was not insane at the time he killed himself) that the insanity should be regarded a a disease contracted or commencing on active service.

The pensions authority believed that AMD's decision went to far and were still reluctant to pay pensions as far as they were concerned the the men were cowards by another name. After pressure from the from the appeal boards and the press etc., the pension authority had to drop the 'moral baggage and accept the situation. Even so they insisted no pension would be paid were a man had taken his life to avoid military duty.

I don't think there is any doubt that after the two world wars there was an increase in rates of suicides of ex servicemen and there was still the shame associated with suicde.

Arnie

To put a Human Face to the Statistics;Sergeant Harry Flood,MM & Bar,1st Cambridgeshire Regiment TF,served throughout the Great war with the 1/1st,Awarded the MM & Bar for extreme Gallantry leading the Men under him;He was wounded @ least twice,the last time resulting in the Amputation of his arm.
Post war he was employed by the Ministry of Pensions @ Northampton; & he appeared to be coping with his Life,However his Wife took off with a Worcester County Cricketer, & Harry subsequently took his Life{circa 1934}

I reviewed Forgotten Lunatics. The review, which the author has seen and approved, is on Salientpoints’ website:

http://www.salientpoints.com

Click on ‘Reviews and new titles’ and follow the link therein to the publisher blurb and a link to an independent review (mine).

It’s also on Tom Morgan’s website, Hellfire Corner, here:

http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/reviewforgotten.htm

There are four pages specifically on suicide and those focus on the attitude the military authorities took to suicide. It seems that efforts were invested in discrediting soldiers who had taken their own lives, assumptions were made about the men’s moral integrity and personal strength (cowardice), or alternative reasons sought other than military service (such as domestic difficulties), all with the intention of evading widows’ pensions. The fact that military service in the War was completely abhorrent to huge numbers of men, and their whole domestic and work routine disrupted for several years, and that this could have a profound effect on their inner peace, took a long time to filter through to the decision makers.

This does not answer your question, unfortunately.

Gwyn

According to these European statistics, there certainly seems to be a dramatic increase in suicides after 1918 and also after 1945, but I think other social and economic factors also need to be considered.

Suicidal Behaviour in Europe

What a great response.Thank you all. It is obvious that it was a serious problem and the authorities callous attitde to these mens families was disgusting. There must be many tragic stories on this sad subject to be told.

Curious how the question of suicide has just been raised as I have tonight, thanks to the efforts of fellow Baker Pal Chris Wight, found out that that one of the local casualties I have been researching committed suicide.............Terribly sad, that this was & still is seen as the only way out for some.

I think some thought it eminently preferable to "living quiet lives of desperation". Or having nightmares every night for the next sixty years. And heaven only knows what other effects, and intra-generationally what impacts were felt. I guess that's wandering well into the topic of PTSD generally.
Alison

I have a copy back home in Dover. I do recall that such information is listed. It is a great book for those of us intersted in shellshock and various treatments. I shall post more when I get back to England at the end of this week.

Also while in Wellington I came across a book published in 1920 written by Dr Myers, one of the first to use psychological techniques to treat shellshock in England. Also a fabulous book.
Robbie

I have just received my Grandfathers death certificate, or at least the only one which ties all the relevant information together. It was something of a shock when I read that he had committed suicide, he served for at least 4 years in the Great War, his wife died in 1930, and his death was recorded in 1934. It is stated that he is an Army Pensioner, so he must have some good reason for getting it considering the obstacles the Min. of Pensions created for many of ex servicemen.
How would I go about finding any details of his pension and what he received it for?

Len

Just had a troll though National Archives and found this item which may be of use to some of us. Its a section which seem to give details of the deaths of service pensioners where the Ministry of Pensions has had an interest. It covers both Officer's and other Ranks. Go to National Archives click on SEARCH THE CATALOGUE then input PIN 15/3120, there's no detail's but it just explain's whats in the file

Len

In addition, now returning soldiers can get help to adjust peacetime activities, what was life like back in the 1920s what support if any was there? for all and not just officers

I suspect that there was little, as after the second world war it was a country fit for heroes... then they were forgotten

It is a big issue and one that will be interesting to debate.. and thats what this forum is good at...

John

Yes there is some help, now, for soldiers who 'admit they have problems, or show signs of PTSD,' though there is little help for these men when they leave the services. But there was little 10 years ago, or so, when I was in the forces.

Seeking help was seen, then, as an admission of a 'weakness.' It could affect your career, by slowing down promotion. I believe that situation has changed, at last.

Stastics still show that a frightening percentage of repeat offenders, civilian prisoners, and also the homeless, are former soldiers.

All these men are still paying for 'doing their bit' as their ancestors did, before them.

As well the stigma surrounding suicide, remember up to the early 1960's it was an offence in the UK to commit suicide, and anyone who tried and failed was liable to face prosecution, seems unreal that there would be such a law when it must have obvious then, as it is now, that people considering such a course of action needed help not an appearnace in court.

I have been watching this thread with some interest.AS during research into two of my Great Great Uncles i have discovered that one of them the Brother OF Frederick Clives was gassed while serving with the RHA.He was so ill and in such pain after the war that he eventually took his own life in the mid 1920's.When i came across this information i found even today certain members of the family DO NOT want to talk about it.

As Pete Wood has said at least there is now help,pity there wasn't then.

Stephen

has Pete wood says PTSD is now recognised but very reluctantly there are still serving Officer supported by Warrant Officer and SNCOs who believe it is weakness. As regard slowing a soldiers career it more than not destroyed it.

Arnie

PS Although suicide is a problem among ex servicemen. There are more die through drink related problems than suicide.

An interesting thread!

Recalling a discussion just prior Operation IRAQI FREEDOM and the search criteria for "combat stress" or "battle fatigue", one of the first large patient series was written by a doctor of the RAMC who specialized in treating "shell shock" cases from France & Flanders. [Don't have the paper at hand, it's among my ship's papers in storage since my post-war transfer.] His findings, recommendations, etc were largely forgotten by 1939/40 and needed to be re-learned. Unfortunately, the same thing happened by Vietnam ... Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome has now been well publicized (patients and families recognize the problem at less severe levels).

In the battles before 1914-19, the folks who were afflicted severely enough to be unable to take care of routine activity (sleeping, eating, taking care of routine financial / work duties) were visibly "ill". All those who were psychiatrically traumatized but still functional, just suffered in silence (unless they resorted to intoxicants to get by).

The Great War, with its mechanized capability to inflict massive numbers of fatalities / horribly wounded, involved so many souls that the percentage of folks psychiatrically injured resulted in great numbers of patients. The field of psychiatry was just in its infancy … medical practitioners of that age were not educated how to recognize the many manifestations of mental illness (let alone treat it). Suffering continued until death … if the pain reached severity where it became too much to bear: death may have been a preferred option. I think whatever numbers of suicides may be recorded, I would suggest those numbers are actually low. As you’ve mentioned, the stigma of suicide, legal ramifications, and folks who died from “tractor accidents” (other multiple other industrial incidents which might look accidental) … coroner’s inquests may have provided the honored veteran the benefit of the doubt.

The other issue which is nearly impossible to study: how many veterans had psychiatric stressors worsening their medical problems (gas-scarred lungs, diabetes, heart disease, etc) causing premature death? Since most practitioners would not have recognized post-combat stress, these cases would be “invisible” to research. By whatever standard, the cost was staggering.

Doc D

Whilst looking at the National Archives site showing disabilities, I was puzzled at the discription D.A.H Further investigation revealed this stands for " Desease of Action of the Heart". This I believe is what caused my Granfather to be "Pensioned off"". Its difficult to understand that this could be one of the prime causes for quite a large number of men to be invalided out. Having been in the services there have been times when pressure created by the requirements of the service have caused the old ticker to palpitate a bit, but to have to undergo that kind of pressure for weeks or months at a time is unimaginable, I think I'm beginning to understand the atmosphere at the front, and I take my hat off to the men who survived in one piece and reasonable sane.

Len (A Queens Hard Bargain)

This is not my experience. the officer who unveiled my village War Memorial committed suicide a couple of years later and his wife secured a pension on the basis that his state of mind at the time of his suicide was partly due to his war service.

This is not my experience. the officer who unveiled my village War Memorial committed suicide a couple of years later and his wife secured a pension on the basis that his state of mind at the time of his suicide was partly due to his war service.

Mate,

You may be able to get figures of this via the Dept of Vetern Affairs in Australia if you write to them. Also since your in NZ wouldn't the NZ Govt have something similar there to check on.

But weather they have figures for the great war is unknown but Australia has them for other wars such as Vietnam.

I have done some limited research on this but only in relation to the ALH (Australian Light Horse).

S.B

I have been researching my Great Uncle who we were told died of the Spanish flu epedemic in 1918 at the age of 20. Not true. On reseraching his war record - grat thanks to the Grenadier Guards - I find that he in fact shot himself in the head at the barracks in Chelsea. He was also said to suffer from "VDH" - vascular heart disease which I can told as very common at that time and caused by stress. This fact was completed covered by the family- even his brother was unaware of this. I am interested in further researching VDH.

cate, are you sure that VDH is 'vascular' heart disease? Normally it would be 'valvular' heart disease, usually related to the effects of rheumatic fever (at that time) on one or more heart valves. Sometimes the cause was congenital.

Robert

Sapper 6,

Doc D has explained skillfully why no definitive data exist to answer your question. Official statistics are, at best, substantially
lower than the true numbers--for all the reasons Doc D raises. Clouding the true picture, additionally, is the related problem of
disentangling the psychiatric complications, or exacerbations, of concurrent medical illness--not the least because both the
medical and the psychiatric conditions could be the result of Great War service or postwar living. Since officialdom--the
military, the pension authorities, and their ilk--denied that a problem existed and suppressed any manifestations of it,
how much credibility will their records merit? After all, such things were not the conversational currency of polite society
in the postwar Land of Hope and Glory. It was a staggering cost, to be sure; more, by far, than we can expect the
extant records to admit.

Regards

Trelawney

Robert Yes, VHD certainly is "Valvular Heart Disease"; more precise differentiations, such as Vascular Disease,
characterized surgical diagnostic taxonomies quite some time subsequent to the Great War.

Absolutely. My background is in cardiology .

Robert