Maybe the 're-issuing' of rum indicates that a push is imminent?
Hefty installment, Jules, great effort. For me and by the looks, the others, the striking part of this insert is that the conditions were truly dreadful.
It makes me angry that such suffering occured to such brave men, whilst staff officers in the rear echelon would no doubt have been debating their 5 course fare and entertainment for the evening.

Hi GY402
I just can't get over the fact that mud could come up over the top of a pair of waders, how on earth did they manage to move at all. Mind you when someone is sniping at you the inclination to move would be a lot stronger I guess. I think it is impossible for us to imagine what that must have been like. Hopefully there will never be the opportunity or the army of today to find out. My overriding thought is why did my grandfather never ever talk about any of this before he died, thank goodness he had the presence of mind to write down his thoughts for us all to read through the medium of this diary.

I read somewhere recently a(Passchendaele) bout an officer who prodded men in the backs of the legs to make them get up out of the mud. He wasn't being evil - the men were exhausted wading through thigh deep mud, and some of them just fell face first in the mud and drowned, so he took action to rouse them. I can imagine falling exhausted like that - it must have been hell.
Marina

57th Instalment
Tuesday November 7th
Slept till 8 o/c usual tour of duty. The other coys came up tonight and carried on with the job we started last night. Lt Hickson wounded and three other casualties.

Wednesday November 8th
Usual routine. The men are having a rotten time sitting and laying in mud. Being relieved by 10th battalion tonight. Relief arrived about 7.30 and platoons proceeded independently to Brigade HQ where guides were picked up and we were taken to a sunken road. The accommodation consisted of dug outs full of water and mud up to your knees. The diggers made the best of it. Bob Miles offered a 2 set --- made a bit of cover. When we had nearly finished it rained like fury and so we just had a stiff tot of rum and turned in and slept through it, laying in about 2 feet of water. This road gets its share of strafing.

Thursday November 9th
We had a man killed here today and my senior Corporal had his leg blown off by a 77mm shell. On fatigue 8 o/c. Went to brigade HQ and found we were not wanted. The men are absolutely dead beat now and the sick parades are very heavy. A lot of trench feet. Miles and I went over to Flers where some of the lads have made a home for themselves in an old cellar. A wash a hot feed and a rest all complete but a dangerous spot. Back about 6 o/c and camped in Brigade HQ. 23 men sick from B company today and my platoon Sgt down with trench feet.

Friday November 10th
Breakfast 8.30. Our AA guns brought down a Laube? This morning in our lines. Being relieved tonight by the 6th Bde . More sickness today. Relief arrived about 6 o/c and we proceeded to Bernafay Nova? There about 9 o/c. Had a wash and change of clothes and turned with Scotts in rear, he having gone away sick. Slept like a top in a hell bent with 2 other officers. Over to you Frev to translate the last two sentences
Regards
Julian

Wednesday November 8th
Usual routine. The men are having a rotten time sitting and laying in mud. Being relieved by 10th battalion tonight. Relief arrived about 7.30 and platoons proceeded independently to Brigade HQ where guides were picked up and we were taken to a sunken road. The accommodation consisted of dug outs full of water and mud up to your knees. The diggers made the best of it. Bob Miles offered a 2 set --- made a bit of cover. When we had nearly finished it rained like fury and so we just had a stiff tot of rum and turned in and slept through it, laying in about 2 feet of water. This road gets its share of strafing.

I see he's more worried by the water than the strafing - i think I understand that.
There are photos of trench foot here - not for the faint hearted:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWfoot.jpg

Marina

Hi Marina
Looks like it would have been very painful and probably only relieved through amputation?
Regards
Julian

You need to be a little careful with this interpretation. I guess you are not referring to the officers who were close up to the front, for example up to brigade and even division level. They often shared the same conditions. Lower-ranking officers were more likely to be killed than Other Ranks. For the infantry, the rotation of units out of the line was relatively frequent. It was the gunners and their officers who really suffered in some of the longer campaigns, such as Third Ypres.

If you mean Staff Officers who worked in army HQs or GHQ, then yes they were in a somewhat better position. As the war went on, they became more exposed to long range artillery and, in the case of GHQ, bombing raids. Casualties were rare. But if you read books like 'GHQ: Montreuil' by Sir Frank Fox and 'French Headquarters' by Jean de Pierrefeu, you realise that the Staff Officers worked extremely long hours, with very little time off and no opportunities for fraternising. They were responsible for ensuring that the millions of troops and other support staff were adequately fed, transported, treated medically, etc, etc. It was no mean feat. Someone had to do it and by-and-large they did a very good job, all things considered.

Robert

A browse through the book by Graham Maddocks and another (I forget whom) which is called "Bloody Red Tabs" will serve to underline how many senior officers were killed, many of them in the lines or nearby rather than back at safer HQ billets.

Julian

This is probably 'Taube'. It was the name of an early German aircraft. A very beautiful design, as you can see here

http://www.wwiaviation.com/german1914.shtml

The Aussies continued to use the term for any German aircraft, though the Taube was still used into 1916.

Robert

One of CRW Nevinsons more famous pictures is called "A Taube", but shows a wounded or dead child lying in the gutter; the title being a "double-entendre" on the word as it surely reflects the result of an aerial attack.

Marina

There is some more information in this thread too:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...1&st=&p=&#entry

Further threads can be checked out by typing 'trench foot' in the Search facility for the Other forum.

Cheers

Robert

[quote=Robert Dunlop,Apr 25 2005, 11:29 PM]
Marina

There is some more information in this thread too:

Thanks, Robert. That whale oil sounds VILE and seems to have smelled worse. A relief to see that death from trench foot wasn't THAT common and that it was in fact treatable.

I think the staff officers do get a bad press. From what I've read, they were always buzzing about round the lines, coordinating, always busy, inundated with requests form higher up and lower down. It can't have been easy.

Marina

Thanks Jules - talk about pressure - I've had my thinking cap on - but no luck I'm afraid. [if only I could see the original!!!!]
The only things I can think of are:
.... turned with Scotts in rear, ......
? he did something with Scotty's gear (he having gone away sick)
and
hell bent.
? some sort of bed

Pity Robert beat me to the Taube - I knew that one!

Being relieved tonight by the 6th Bde - they were actually relieved by the 6th Bn
Bernafay Nova? - Could it be Bernafay Wood.

Nov 7th
Lt Hickson wounded and three other casualties.
[from 'Cobbers in Khaki'] - Cpt Percy Lay's account of what happened:
"C Company got the worst of this [shelling]. Lieutenant Hickson had his platoon out in a forward position when he got wounded and I was sent out to take charge. I was in about as tough a little corner as any would wish to be. I was to get the men back. They were a party of 15 digging in No Man's Land when a sniper got on to them and wounded the Lieutenant and three men. But they were only 15 yards from Fritz's trenches and the clouds cleared away leaving it as bright as day. I had a hell of a job getting them back. I got the officer and the wounded men into their trench alright and also six of the other men but the other five had to stay out in shell holes. The sniper got onto the second lot and did some pretty good shooting wounding the two men in front of me and killing the man behind me. He managed to get three holes through my coat. He got three more of the remainder and that left me in a nice pickle. I had to gather all the wounded in a shell hole and then go and see if I could get some help but as all the rest had gone except Bert Hall it was up to me.
I had to go out and carry them in on my shoulders and just managed to get them safely in the trench when they spotted me and opened up on us again. I'd got the first three in alright but he'd got on to us when I was fetching the second party in, killing one and wounding the other two. I don't know how he missed me as he was only 30 yards away. Out of the 15 of us 13 got killed or wounded. The next question was how to get them all back. I decided to take another risk. I got them all back and luck was with me as he did not fire until I had got the last man in."

Makes it easy to see why he was the most decorated soldier in the 8th Battalion doesn't it!
Cheers, Frev.

Hi Robert
Many thanks for your interpretation of John's writing. What an ungainly looking aircraft the Taube was and with a top speed of only 60 mph too. Still for a recce aircraft I guess speed was not important really. Must have made them easy targets for AA guns on the ground?
Julian

No worries Frev.

Chance will come around again

Robert

Julian

Speed was not important until anti-reconnaisance aircraft took to the skies. For aerial photographs, the key was to fly straight and level. Even so, it seems that AA guns mostly put flyers off rather than bring them down.

There are certainly accounts of Taubes being bought down with rifle fire in the early months of the war.

Robert

Hi frev
You shall get to see the original my friend, I shall get a scanner if it kills me as I have lots of pictures I want to show you and the other pals I have been very pleased to make acquaintance with these past months. The Nova was actually Wood as you surmised and the Bde was battalion. The hell bent was actually "bell tent". Thanks for helping me to get the context and spelling correct.
Regards
Julian

Evening All
58th Instalment

Saturday November 11th
Awoke 9 o/c. Breakfast. Cleaned up. Warned at 2.30 to take party of 50 men on fatigue, 200 men in the whole party under Captain Kirby. Went to Brigade HQ left equipment there and then carried duckboards up to Bull R- dump. A rotten journey. Got back at camp at 9 o/c very tired.

Sunday November 12th
Relieved and proceeded to Pomieres redoubt.

Monday November 13th
Left camp 9 o/c and proceeded to Fricourt camp. Good nissen huts once again.

Tuesday November 14th
Left camp 9 o/c marched via Becordel? Meaultes? where a battalion of Irish Guards were billeted. They paid compliments to the full and we were rather glad when we got out of the town, but they are fine soldiers. We then went through T-ll- sur Forbe and Mericourt to Ribemont where we billeted. Not a bad place. Turned in at 9 o/c after having reconnoitred a big EF canteen where there is a special place for officers.

Sorry there is not much tonight as I had difficulty reading it and debated for a long time before I decided what soem words actually were. Over to you Frev for the place names. Night all.
Regards
Julian

[quote=pompeyrodney,Apr 26 2005, 10:17 PM]
Hi frev
The hell bent was actually "bell tent". Thanks for helping me to get the context and spelling correct.


Inspired, isn't she, Jules?
Marina

[quote=pompeyrodney,Apr 26 2005, 10:32 PM]
Evening All
58th Instalment

Saturday November 11th
Awoke 9 o/c. Breakfast. Cleaned up. Warned at 2.30 to take party of 50 men on fatigue, 200 men in the whole party under Captain Kirby. Went to Brigade HQ left equipment there and then carried duckboards up to Bull R- dump. A rotten journey. Got back at camp at 9 o/c very tired.

Sunday November 12th
Relieved and proceeded to Pomieres redoubt.

Monday November 13th
Left camp 9 o/c and proceeded to Fricourt camp. Good nissen huts once again.

Tuesday November 14th
Left camp 9 o/c marched via Becordel? Meaultes? where a battalion of Irish Guards were billeted. We then went through T-ll- sur Forbe and Mericourt to Ribemont where we billeted. Not a bad place. Turned in at 9 o/c after having reconnoitred a big EF canteen where there is a special place for officers.

So much hard labour and marching about! Still, I suppose it beats getting strafed. Hope he gets time to eat in that fine canteen!
Marina

Hi Marina
I don't mean to be picky but you need to put [/quote] at the end of any quoted text from another pal, otherwise you cannot make out who has said what.
Cheers
Julian

She sure is Marina

[quote=pompeyrodney,Apr 26 2005, 10:41 PM]
Hi Marina
I don't mean to be picky but you need to put [/quote] at the end of any quoted text from another pal, otherwise you cannot make out who has said what.
Cheers
Julian

[/quote]


You and me, too, Marina.

Robbie

[QUOTE]
[/quote]
You and me, too, Marina.

Robbie

[/quote]


Just testing!
Marina

How do you get the blue box with the quote marks in the corner? Now that I've mastered the edit button, I feel I'm ready for something more advanced...
Marina

Click the reply button and then edit the text, make sure you preview the post before adding it in case you have made a mistake, hope this helps.
Julian

Hey Jules & Marina - you are my inspiration!!
Marina - I haven't seen your attempt to conjure up that 'blue box with the quote marks in the corner' yet.


On to those place names:

Becordel? Meaultes? - Becordel & Meaulte - remove the 's' & you have a winner.

T-ll- sur Forbe - bear with me while I ramble here - and any help from all those silent readers would be appreciated. I've always understood 'sur' to sort of mean 'on the river' - ie. Bray sur-Somme (Bray on the river Somme). I can't find any reference to a river 'Forbe' - and the route they were on followed the river Ancre. 'Forbe' - 'Ancre' - hmm, I don't know. There is a 'Buire sur-Ancre' between Meaulte & Mericourt / Ribemont - but it's really not looking like 'T-ll- sur Forbe'
However, there's also a place called 'Ville sous-Corbie' - and it has a much better feel about it - so I'm plugging for this - but the ball's in your court.
Are you still awake there Jules? Sorry to put you through that - don't worry - some day I'm going to get a life!!

Cheers, Frev

Hi Frev
Thanks for oyur endeavours again, I will check up on those names when I get home alter and let you know waht I reckon it is. Most tales to follow later, what am I going to do when the diary finishes I ask myself Frev? Get my life back I hear you respond
Regards
Julian

Have clicked. Have checked. Am sure this can't be all...
Marina

We have lift off!
Hey, Frev - look!
Marina

[quote=pompeyrodney,Apr 27 2005, 03:55 PM]
Hi Frev
Thanks for oyur endeavours again, I will check up on those names when I get home alter and let you know waht I reckon it is. Most tales to follow later, what am I going to do when the diary finishes I ask myself Frev? Get my life back I hear you respond
Regards
Julian

/quote]

When you've finished the diary, you go to your parents' house and search it brick by brick for the rest of it.
BTW, Jules, don't mean to be picky, but there is an edit button, you know! I found it the other week!
Marina

In response to the replies from my comments about my anger toward those who never suffered in the way the 'men' did; whilst I appreciate these rear echelon officers worked long hours and couldn't fraternize, what input did the more senior officers have in trying to end the war?
'Wastage' and 'attrition' are words attributed to senior staff I believe when forecasting the future of the war.
What drove Siegfried Sassoon to denounce the war, following his heroism and clear love for the men he led?
When could the war have ended? How many lives were needlessly lost, and was it worth it?
Read Joseph Persico's account of the final day, '11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour' if you have not already to try and see where I'm coming from.

Its sounds slightly silly, but I cannot but help refer to the character Stephen Fry played in Blackadder (Melcherd?) when I think of the lunacy of the latter part of this war.

I know what you are trying to say, but looking to TV sitcoms for historical interpretation is not good practice.

It was General Melchett, by the way.

Yes, its not my template for my opinion, I try to look a bit harder for that! Still, the final scene in the final episode is pretty emotive stuff and the point made there is rather succinct. OK, Darling?

HI All
Sorry there has been no diary these past couple of days as I have been very busy at work and too tired when I get home. Guests over this weekend so will most likely not be able to do any until Monday or Tuesday, so see you all then.
Regards
Julian

Enjoy the rest, Jules. We'll all be lurking next week.
MARINA

Hi ya Jules

I'm not being obsessive about above - honest!! I just came across this out of the blue - another map extract - that shows 'Ville-sur-Ancre' - and it looks to be the same place as 'Ville sous-Corbie' on my other map. So, that's 3 for you to choose from. [or perhaps still 2 - I think I'd discard 'Buire sur-Ancre']

Have a great break with your guests on the weekend.
Cheers, Frev

PS - Marina - Congrats on mastering 'the blue box with the quotes in the corner' (at 2.59pm) - but what happened in the following post (at 3.06pm) - was the excitement too much?? I see you worked it out again though.

It's part of the attraction to the forum, learning new tricks. It makes you feel ever so clever!
I get so carried away with the topics I forget to explore the wonderful help bits that Chris has provided. Now, if I could just find "spell check"!

Kim

Spelling chequers are vary Yews full.

Robert

PS - Marina - Congrats on mastering 'the blue box with the quotes in the corner' (at 2.59pm) - but what happened in the following post (at 3.06pm) - was the excitement too much?? I see you worked it out again though.

[/quote]


Thank you, m'dearFrev and Ozzie! It takes a while for things to filter through, but there is not doubt the sense of triumph is marvellous!
Robert, yu're so rite!
Marina

Evening All
Here is your next instalment.
59th Instalment

Wednesday November 15th
Some Hun planes were about last night and dropped several bombs around the town. Parade 9 o/c for the inspection of G6 ? brigade. Waited for him until 12 o/c but did not turn up. General Birdwood rode through the town in the afternoon and spoke to some of the boys. They think a lot of him. Smartening up drill in the afternoon.

Thursday November 16th
Marching to bath at Herely? At 9 o/c. Very good baths. I took a party there again in the afternoon.

Friday November 17th
Parade 9 o/c and smartening up drill etc till 12 o/c Parade 2 o/c. Short route march in fighting order till 2.30. Wrote letters in the evening. To Mons? tomorrow. Advance party and transport left today.

Saturday November 18th
Parade 8.45 and waited about in the snow which fell during the night and which has now turned into dirt and then into rain which continued till 1230. At last our turn came to get aboard the cars. During the time we were waiting a cup of hot cocoa was given to each man by the formforts? F----. Bad management that we should have to wait all this time in the wet. Travelled via Amiens to St Vast? Where we arrived at 5 o/c. Finally settling down in a pretty poor billet. This morning while we were waiting to move from our billets a bomb exploded with fire in D companies lines wounding 7 men, 1 seriously.

Sunday November 19th
Up at 8.45. Church parade 10.30. 7th and 8th battalions service conducted by Chaplain Carter. Very wet under foot just now.

Monday November 20th
Parade 9 o/c. Usual training. Dismissed at 12 o/c. Route march in the afternoon. Syllabus is pretty stiff for visitors from other coys at dinner tonight. A very pleasant evening.

Tuesday November 21st
Parade 9-12. Brigade smallpox respirator inspection and issue of clothes in afternoon. Cards in the evening.

Wednesday November 22nd
Miles got his second star this morning and has gone to a company commanders school for a month. We will be short handed now. Brigade drill this morning. Football match in the afternoon between the left half and right half battalions. The left one the score 41 points to 30. Cards at night.

Thursday November 23rd
BCC. Captain Kirby acting as second in command. We played the 7th battalion football and beat them easily. 7.30 lecture by Lt Freeman on supplies in the field. I am to go to an Inspection Training School for a month and will probably miss the next stint.

I look forward to hearing from you all
Regards
Julian

Is 'Mons?' Amiens? (it won't be Mons in Belgium)

Robert

Just checked Robert and it should have said "move", sorry about that
Regards
Julian

Anyone know what John means by a Brigade smallpox respirator?
Marina

I think it refers to 'small box respirator'

http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/80th/restore_gasmask.htm

Robert

That's a relief - just when I thought things couldn't get any worse in the trenches, somebody mentions smallpox...Thanks a lot for the link, Robert.
Marina

Hi Jules

A few more from the last instalment:

Nov 16th
Herely? - Heilly
Everybody seems to mention the baths at Heilly - they probably thought they'd finally died - and gone to heaven!!

Nov 18th
formforts? F---- - Comforts Fund
St Vast? - I've seen it spelt this way, and also 'St Vaast' [my detailed map is cut off at Amiens - and it's about 8km the other side - maybe someone else can help??]
Finally settling down in a pretty poor billet. - Apparently the 29th Bn left this billet in a pretty filthy state! Must have been a real downer for them when they were all feeling so clean.

Cheers, Frev

Hi Jules
Howd ya be?

Just bringing this back to the top - so it doesn't get lost.
I'm not hassling you - true dinks! You just take your time - there are other things in life after all!!!

Cheers, Frev

Going stir crazy with no new posts to this thread.
Kim