Another man's arm does that say?
GULP

Marina

Marina, you are right about rapid medical/surgical advances in wartime. I posted some information here

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...ndpost&p=217248

written by a surgeon who worked in Belgium in the first months of the war. He describes the process of using steel plates for bridging gaps in bone.

An alternative would be use a bone graft from another person. The bone would probably be taken from someone who had just died or who had just had the arm amputated. The section of bone would be cut to size, defleshed, possibly boiled. The key is to keep the calcium skeleton with as little protein and other foreign matter as possible. The new 'bone' can then be put into the gap, forming a rigid skeleton and thereby enabling new bone to bridge the gap by growing across the insert.

Robert

That's all fascinating stuff, Robert. I had no idea at all that they could do that kind of grafting so early in the century . Thanks for the link.
Marina

Neither was I, Marina. Well spotted in the documentation.

Robert

Hi Marina
It does indeed say from anothers mans arm, which is why I said you would find it interesting reading. I will post the other pictures tonight so you can see how the new bone forms across the gap.
Julian

Hi Jules

Fascinating x-rays! Is there any mention of which hospital this incredible surgery was carried out at? When you brought it up earlier - I assumed that the operation was probably done in England - but as the first photo is dated 4/12/18 - and John arrived back in Melbourne 18/11/18 (not returning to England until 1920) - it had to be done here.

It would be interesting to know who the surgeon was too.

Cheers, Frev

Lt. (?)Colonel Moore in August, 1919
Marina

Thanks Marina

Looks like I could do with some surgery myself - on both the eyes & the brain!

Cheers, Frev

Think of poor Jules having to cope with ALL the diary, which isn't even in John's best handwriting!

Marina

Hi All
Frev you have really set me thinking about the dates involved now, will do some more digging !!
Regards
Julian
Click to view attachment

Was that wire in the wound, or wire from the graft?
Robert? Are you there?
Marina

Marina, I doubt the wire was from the time when the wound occurred. I understand John was hit in the elbow by a sniper's bullet. I wouldn't think this would have contaminated the wound with wire. Methinks it was used to hold the bone graft in place. Nice piece of work. Did John suffer from any paralysis in the hand after the wound?

Robert

Thanks, Robert. Didn't Jules mention somewhere that tehre was a stiffness in his arm? Maybe I'm misremembering.
Marina

Marina, I would expect stiffness in the arm. The elbow joint will have been destroyed. There are some important nerves that run past the elbow. I suspect at least one of these may have been destroyed or damaged. If so, there may have been numbness and/or paralysis of the hand and/or fingers.

Robert

Sounds likely. Come on, Jules - report in!

Marina

Hi Frev
Thisa should answer your question but it also throws up some more as well?

Hi Frev
This should interest you my friend
Regards
Julian
Click to view attachment

Evening All
I will post the final pictures of the operation this evening so lets be having some responses from you all. Get those fingers moving you lot
Regards
Julian

Before 10pm, as usual?
Marina

Sorry I am late folks but here is the next picture in the series:
Click to view attachment
More to follow back shortly
Julian

College of surgeons might be able to tell us more about Moore - obviously a very good orthapaedic surgeon.

I presume by Robert's description that the implanted bone is effectively sterilised and "killed" by boiling to avoid rejection problems. The man's own bone then invades and surrounds it.

Here is the next one for you Marina
Click to view attachment

And finally the last picture
Click to view attachment
Tomorrow I shall post some pictures from the hospital gazette together with some interesting stories. Until then goodnight all.
Regards
Julian

I compared the latest pics with th earliest - it really is astonishing what the doctor has achieved. So how did the injury affect John thorugh his life, Jules?

Marina

Jules,
It's a real bonus that your grandfather kept such fantastic records. The suffering the wounded had to endure (even when they kept limbs) is really bought home by these X-Rays. My grandfather sufferred a similar wound in the upper arm in which he didn't need an implant (and also one to the chest). Just makes you respect them all even more.

Rgds

Tim

My mother's eldest brother had a shrapnel wound to his upper arm in August 1918 at the age of nineteen. Apparently his arm hung by a thread of flesh and the surgeons wanted to remove it, but fortunately for my uncle a Canadian doctor saved it by inserting rabbits bones as a graft. Yes rabbits bone. My uncle was very proud of recounting that and showing us youngsters the still gapping wound (now healed) in which, as a small child you could insert your fingers. There was very little muscle left but at least he could write and perform very lightweight tasks. He lived until he was eighty eight. Strangely just before his death he went back to the time he was wounded. On the way to the hospital in the ambulance with my sister he kept holding his arm and saying mind that shellhole!! Amazing how the brain remembers events of sixty years previous.
Many thanks Jules for your endeavours in keeping us all informed of what it was REALLY like to be involved in the Great War.
Lionboxer

Hi Jules

You probably thought I’d been ignoring you (& John) – but I’ve been working on the hospital business.

I’d narrowed it down to the 11th Australian General Hospital in Caulfield – and I’d discovered that they preferred to staff the hospitals in Australia with medical officers who’d seen overseas service. But the only possibility I’ve come up with so far is:
Lt Col John Brooke MOORE who embarked with the AAMC as a Medical Practioner in 1916 and returned to Australia in July 1917. However – he enlisted from NSW & had a wife in NSW – so probably wouldn’t have been stationed in Victoria on his return. (his WS record hasn’t been digitized)
But I’m still hunting.

I decided to have another look at John’s records – but each time I tried to access them over the last couple of days – the Nat. Archives ‘imaging system’ was down.
Finally got to have a look this ‘avo – and sure enough there’s John’s medical report from the 11th Aust Gen Hosp, dated 12/7/20.

Anyway – the following is a little of what I’ve gleaned from his records:

After being wounded on the 13/6/1918 – he was admitted to the 3rd Aust Field Amb. (France) on the 14/6/18 – and was then transferred to the 2nd Cas. Clear. Stat – and on to the 14th Gen. Hosp 15/6/18.
He was then shipped to England and admitted to the 3rd London Gen Hosp on the 18/6/18 – from which he was transferred to the Grove Mil. Hosp in Tooting 24/7/18.


From his Medical Report 3rd Lon Gen Hosp, England:
“He received a perforating G.S.W. of his right elbow, entry on inner side of arm, just above elbow joint; exit over the olecranon. process, fracturing the lower end of the humerus.”

“There is considerable swelling of his elbow joint. He has a tube right through the joint. His temperature is normal. He has two large open wounds leading down to bare bone.

“This officer is a fit case for return to Australia by Hospital Ship. He should travel as a cot case.”


He embarked on the “Arawa” 15/9/18 and arrived in Melbourne 18/11/18.
His address given on disembarkation: Emily St Murrumbeena (as you know he was staying with relatives)
This would have been very convenient for him because the 11th AGH was in Caulfield – these two suburbs are almost next door to each other.


From his Medical Report dated 12/7/20, 11th Aust Gen Hosp, Caulfield, Aust:
“Wounded 14/6/18 in R elbow joint causing CF of joint & blowing away part of humerus. On admission wound healed but has flail joint.
28.8.19 was operated on & had a large piece of bone grafted.
Healed after some time & new bone formed enough to stop flail movement of joint. Had elbow bent under anaesthetic.”

“Arm healed has some limitation of movement.”
Disability is permanent. Expect 50% improvement in 12 months.


[Note: John’s notes on No. 2 X-ray state that he was operated on on the 22/8/19 – the medical report says 28/8/19.]


Anyway, Jules (& pals) – I’ll leave you to digest the above – and look forward to any more info you dig up on ‘our’ John.

Cheers, Frev

PS: Amazing story lionboxer.

Hi Tim
Many thanks for your input my friend, it sure does make me respect my grandfather all the more as you suggest. It just amazes me that it was possible to do these medical techiques at the turn of the century.
Cheers
Julian

Hi Frev
Welcome back to my Aussie mate I had mssed your valuable input. It appears you have been doing the detective work again. I have been meaning to do the same myself, to piece together the events to make some sense of them. My mother and father had been wondering if and when John returned to Oz after the war, or whether he came back to UK and stayed. Where did you get all the info by the way, is it all from AWM. Many thanks again.
Regards
Jules

Hi Marina
I shall have to ask my father about the effect the injury had on John's latter life as I don't remember much about the way it affected him to be honest. I only really remember him as an old man who continually smoked a pipe ! I will see what I can dig up when I see my parents next.
Regards
Julian

I'm just so amazed at the healing process in that arm - I keep looking at it. What an achievement by Dr. Moor.

Marina

Ca,e across this when I was brpwsing. Could it be John's Cairo riot when the redcaps opened fire on the crowd?

http://www.anzacday.biz/anzac_day/gallipol...s.asp?index=628

Marina

Hi Marina et Al
You could well be right there Marina as I feel sure that would have made the men very angry indeed. It would account although not justify their behaviour during the riots. Meantime here is another picture of John I have not posted before. Let me know what you think of it ok.
Regards
JulianClick to view attachment

Thanks for the extra pics of the x-rays. The side-on view is very interesting. It appears to show that the very bottom (distal) end of the arm bone (humerus) is still intact. The elbow joint may have been preserved. The bone graft will have formed a lattice for new bone to be laid down. The grafted bone would probably have resorbed over time. A very nice surgical job that would have improved John's quality of life sigificantly, compared with the alternative.

Robert

Great Picture, Jules. He appears to be getting younger - school board will be after him! Or maybe it's the war being over which has relieved him of stress.

Marina

On reflection, he seems to have lost weight and looks a bit shdowy under the eyes. - maybe that's it. I suppose his arm will have been giving him trouble.
Marina

Hi, Robert -
Is the surgical procedure much the same nowadays? Does this treatment John had stand up well to today's treatment?
Marina

Hey Jules

Just dropped in to see how you were doing.
Had another look at John's visa for France - and wondered if you had actually translated any of it. I'm assuming that he stopped there on his way back from Aus to UK - and wondered whether the visa actually states his reason (perhaps other than nostalgia!)

[studied German at school - but can't read a word of that either]
Cheers, Frev

Hi Frev
I only really posted the visa to show the photo on it but if anyone can translate it for me please go ahead. I am more interested in the saga with regard to John's medals. I would love to be able to trace the people mentioned in the letters, well their decendants anyway. I have not had the time recently to do any more. I would love to be able to show my dad John's medals, that would mean the world to me. Oh well I can dream I guess. Will try to post a photo of a grave tonight showing the final resting place of a Herbert Tanner of the 8th battalion, is he one of yours Frev?
Regards
Julian

Hi Jules
How is 'your busy little self'?

Sorry I've taken so long to answer your question (been a little side-tracked also).
No, Sgt Herbert Henry TANNER (3281) isn't one of the soldiers I'm researching - but you could still post the photo of his grave - I'm an avid collector of everything!


How's your search for John's medals going - best I can figure it, is they were eventually forwarded on to him.

Last piece of correspondance stamped 21 Apr 1926, addressed to him at
164 New Street
Horsham, Sussex, England
from the Officer at Base Records, Melbourne
as follows:

"Dear Sir,
With reference to your communication re medals addressed to Headquarters, 3rd District Base, an extract of which was referred to this office for attention, I have to inform you that I wrote to the Secretary, R.S.S.I.L.A., who advised that he had handed the medals over to a Mr Harper, who stated he had forwarded them to you per registered post. I then requested Mr Harper to supply the registration number and date of posting.
A couple of days later Mr Dunslow advised that Harper had returned the medals to him. I obtained the British War and Victory Medals from Mr Dunslow and have forwarded them to you per separate post Reg. No. 6641.
Kindly acknowledge receipt."


The 'medals section' in the records notes: "Returned to B.R. & re-issued 19/4/26. Reg. Post 6641" [B.R. = Base Records]

[R.S.S.I.L.A. = 'The Returned Sailors & Soldiers' Imperial League of Australia' of which Mr S.E. Dunslow was the Secretary of the Melbourne Branch at the time.]

Didn't come across any acknowledgement by John (in the records) on receiving the medals - but seems strange that there would be any funny business as far as the 'Officer of Base Records' was concerned. The fact that there's no further correspondance also suggests that John received the medals - as he hasn't bothered to follow up further.

Hope luck is with you in finding them.
Cheers for now, Frev.

Hi Frev
Sorry I have not been in touch for so long, my apologies. I am no further on in my quest to get hold of John's medals. If he did ever receive them then I have no idea where they are now. If you are able to help that would be great or if you have any suggestions where the medals might be please let me know. If I remember correctly John acknowledged receipt of one medal but not the other two, so where they are is anybody's guess. I am sure it would mean the world to my father if I could find them. I did find a medal ribbon in John's effects but no medal to go with it. Speak to you soon Frev
Regards
Julian

I would be veryinterested in Messines Ridge -- particularly the weeks leading up to the detonation of mines. Mid-May to June 7 , 1917.

A great find!

Any more pics or papers, Jules?
Marina

Hi Marina
Long time no hear. I have loads of other stuff I could scan but it is a case of finding the time at present. I will do my best to do some tonight as I have been too busy with other things recently. TTFN
Julian

That would be great, Jules, if you can. I miss this thread!
Marina

Hi Marina
I too miss the thread but I would love to be able to carry it on with yours and many other contributions. I will do some more scanning tomorrow but in the meantime here is a little taster.

Click to view attachment
This is the only grave i could find of any 8th battalion AIF soldiers I could find during my recent holiday in France. It is of one Herbert Henry Tanner who was killed on the ninth of August 1918. Sorry about the colour quality by the way, more to follow soon.
Regards
Julian

I always think it's such a same when you see one who died so near the end of the war.
Marina

been working on this image for a wee while, still not finished but this is how it's looking.

Very nice. Keep up the good work.

Robert

Excellent! Doesn't it make the chap peeping out from the tent look villainous?

Marina