And what about these?

http://www.adede.com/

http://www.bactec.com/

Do they have archeologists working for them as well ???

Tafski

Very interesting information mr Dugout. Adede we know very well I have seen them in action on the maasvlakte in Rotterdam.

What I don't understand that you are now promoting these companies while you are the one who sent a series of complaints to the minister, the police and the courts to make sure the law was upheld. As we all know you, the Poirot of the Westhoek. Now you have succeeded in bringing everything under the responsability of the archeologists, you are now starting to promote demining companies, do you have shares in these companies.

As you are such a fighter for the enforcement of the law, how many complaints have you made personnally about the fact that polluted land is sold in this area.

When now an accident happens or soldiers get cleared, and we find out that the archeologist did not find it important enough to give a licence to have the area screened we know which door to knock on.

As you know, my door is always open for you, Frans.

Tafski,

I'm not sure if De Diggers have archaeologists or what? You seem to know them better, but I do understand that they have managed successfully to locate a considerable number of the fallen. Which is laudable in itself. I don't suppose you know how they identify them and what sort of success rate they have?

Vegetius

(General 5th Century)

SPQR

Vegetius

I think it best you contact frans of de diggers and get the information from the horses mouth so to speak and then there will be no misunderstandings
Tafski

May I ask who do you think 'they' are/is? Diggers, Min. of Defence or CWGC?

Regards,

Marco

There's plenty of work to be done for everyone!

Roel

by the way: these two sound pretty commercial (=expensive) to me

Developers will expect to pay commercial prices to professional contractors to remove demolition and construction waste from their sites, so why should it be any different for EOD services? Would an amateur group be permitted to remove asbestos from old factory sites in Belgium?

I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities.

Don't decry amateurs, I have found some amateurs to be every bit as capable as "Professionals" . The Dovo are professionals and have lost many men in handling the unexploded ordenance left over from the war, the diggers..NONE, see what I mean?
I think you only have to look at the input of our "Amateur" GWF pals to the BBC programme " My Family at War" as a typical example.

I'm sad to see some negativity in certain posts towards other members of the forum just recently.
There's them that talks, and there's them that does..the Diggers belong to the latter, may they continue to do what they have done well for years
regrads
Tom

Marco,

I'm really not sure of the process used! I guess the 'they' are all of those you mentioned. I assume that the soldiers recovered are handed over with all of their kit found to one of the Government organisations and that all concerned play their part in identifying the individual. I was / am interested in what sort of success rate is possible using modern high tech methods?

Knowing the amount of stuff soldiers hoard and carry I would have thought that with the technology you hear is available today a reasonable amount could be ID'd from their kit etc and subsequently given the named burial that they rightly deserve. In addition the percentage of soldiers named would be an indicator that demonstrates the good job being done.

Vegetius

(General 5th Century A.D.)

SPQR

"I think many members will be disappointed to learn of the over-riding importance that De Diggers apparently attach to the ordnance clearance side of their activities"

What is the most common item likely to be found by De-Diggers "Blinds" i.e. ammunition that has failed to function. I sure the prime purpose is the clearance of an area to be developed, and if in the process remains are found the first priority is to inform the police, I might be corrected, but that the recovery of remains is done under the watchful eye of the police, if it is established that the remains are WW1. All remains are bagged and tagged with any artifacts found in the vacinity and handed over to the police. The De-Diggers do not and cannot identify the the name of the individual unless dogtags are found only in some cases can the nationality and regiments (in the case of shoulder titles or cap Badges) can they be identified. The identity is is kept confidential by them.


John

This is merely an observation John but I know from personal experience that there is nothing to stop any group that has found a body from undertaking research to assist the authorities in identifying that individual. Also the method of excavation and the records made can be extremely helpful to CWGC, if carried out to a professional standard. By your final sentence I assume that the words "apart from to the authorities" is implicit.

Personally, having worked on human remains in a Great War archaeological context, I feel a strong personal responsibility to assist the identification process in whatever way possible. I also see nothing wrong in telling people of our successes, as I feel that we honour the man by telling his story. However this is not the place to debate this, as we have a thread devoted to the wider issues surrounding bodies running on "Battlefields in Danger".

Just to clarify a point or two, the word assist is very important, as id is not carried out by any groups it is the cwgc and mod who try, i also understand that no material relating to possible id of a body should be separated from it during excavation, the complete "find" is handed over to the local police to start the process.

Martin
If you are going to quote me, please use the complete post., also I did not use "apart from the authorities". And as for trying to identify the bodies, the Diggers have not your resources at their disposal as you have in UK. As I said before their prime function is clearance.


John

Asbestos is actually detected and cleared for free by a specialised goverment unit here in Flanders.
Further from the rest, permits for archaeological research are issued by the Flemish goverment's (RO Vlaanderen) department for monuments and landscapes. As far as the archaeological side of the story is concerned, it seems to become harder and harder for amateur archaeological groups to obtain licenses here in Flanders. One of the most prominent groups, the AVRA (Association for Roman Archaeology in Antwerp) f.i. can no longer obtain their own permits and can now only assist on goverment digs. On commercial digs (the vast majority), there are no volunteers allowed due to market rules concerning competition between archaeological companies.
A positive point here is that the area where the diggers operate is covered by a local govermental archaeological service. If a stretch of land needs to be excavated, the goverment archaeologist for the Ypres area will sit down with the contractor and look at costs, time etc. He will than manage and monitor the excavation, which normally leaves him room enough to incorporate volunteers/amateurs. In other areas of Flanders such a local governemental service does not exist, which leaves it to the contractor himself to organise the archaeological part. The contractor than has no other opportunity than to contact a commercial archaeological company, which leaves no room for volunteers. A clear archaeological law is to be passed next year. Untill than, the above is more or less how it functions here for the moment. Untill than, it is an unclear situation for all of us working in archaeology in Flanders. I hope 2009 bring some clarity for the diggers as well.
As far as I know, there is also a new regulations for metal detectoring to be released in Flanders, which would give metal detectorists the chance to obtain a permit for the whole of Flanders. However this permit is limited to the disturbed top soil layer (more or less the first 20-40 cm).

As far as the ammunition disposal side of the story is concerned, I think this is and will remain a 'grey zone'.

John,

Do I understand this right and the Diggers are actually an 'EOD' (I believe that is the term) clearance organisation? The thing is as I understand it they have found in excess of 200 fallen in the process of their work. my initial question was, when given to the authorities with all the associated equipment how many have been identified (to the nearest 10 or so would be good). As you state the Diggers do not have at their disposal huge resources, but the government organisations who recieve the remains do. Also as Martin states, "...having worked on human remains in a Great War archaeological context, I feel a strong personal responsibility to assist the identification process in whatever way possible." Surely anyone with repect would feel likewise and assist in whatever way possible. I have read much recently about people like the Australians and New Zealander's who will and do put a huge amount into the research the of personnal kit as well as the remains and that must pay dividends in the long run?

Can no one then answer the simple question for me please? How many (roughly) of the recovered soldiers are successfully identified? I can't be the first person ever to ask this question and I'm sure amongst this august group of learned people someone must have a reasonable idea. Several people have said that they have accompanied the Diggers on their work and surely, if they're anything like me, would wish to know the results of anyone found whilst they were there?

My thanks to all for listening to this minor question.


Vegetius

(General 5th Century AD)

SPQR

One.
I'll send you a PM.

Aurel

Well I didn't expect such an exact answer, thanks. I've replied to your PM separately but is it just me or is one identification out of in excess of 200 just a little bit low? Having read these threads I expected something in excess of 50% (not unlike a find of 5 soldiers at Polygon wood that I was PM'd on where 3 were identified!). I have not been able to read up on that yet but understand that it was professional archaeologists on that occasion. If so does that show a reason why only the trained and qualified should carryout such activitys (or am I overly simplifying things with my lack of understanding)?

I out of over 200 is "a little bit low indeed".
In my PM I referred to the reasons explaining this low rate.

I do not think that professional archaeologists were involved in the actual finding of the 5 Polygon Wood men. The professionals (non archaeologists) came afterwards and had means that amateurs do not have at their disposal. (Like DNA.)

I don't think that professional archaeologists would have had a higher ID rate with regard to the remains found by the Diggers. But again : identification is not the task of the Diggers. We were not even allowed to keep the items for a while. They were to be handed to the authorities.

Aurel

Having been involved in the identification of several Great War soldiers and involved in several Great War digs I can say from my experience that it is amazing anyone can be identified at all considering the condition of the remains, the level of destruction of the military and personal items. It is a miracle in some instances that anything worthwhile is even discovered that could provide a clue to their identity.

Some ID discs were fabric based, aluminum, etc. Most of these dissolved long ago and those that survived, mostly German in my personal experience, were badly damaged in most cases but these at least provide the best chance of identifying the man.

If only a few of the men were identified then I consider it a victory of dedication over time and rust.

Ralph

[quote name='vegetius' date='Nov 22 2008, 03:50 PM' post='1059571']


There are many variables that must be considered concerning the id of soldiers, one of the most important is the authorities CWGC and MOD, rarely do they get the budget for DNA, which is a very costly business, it can be possible to id a regiment, but for an individual soldier to be recognised overwhelming positive proof is required, not just a button or cap badge.
The Diggers do not go looking for bodies, but when they find one in my experience they are treated with total respect, and the legal procedures followed, from the point the remains are lifted from the ground and handed over to the police, they have no further say in what happens in the id process.
Finally, unless there is a pointer to who the soldier maybe, dna is not possible, as you need to match it up with a relative, the conditions of the ground, what activities have gone on over it, the type of injuries sustained, all help or hinder the id process.
The diggers are very experienced in what they do, and they do it as well as any other group, lets be thankfull they exist.

After spending a good part of this morning with the De Diggers in Barry I have only admiration for them. The were more than happy to explain the whys and wonts of the whole thing and I now understand the whole isssue in a more informed light. (They were also dead friendly).
Also as a side issue nice to meet Willie and Dave Croonheart and also I guess Tafski who cost me a load of cash .

[quote name='welshdoc' date='Nov 22 2008, 07:31 PM' post='1059717']


Glad you enjoyed the company, the feeling is mutual, it's always nice to put faces to names.

Money well spent even if you did have to lever your wallet open with that superb bayonet
once again Doc pleasure to spend time in your company also glad the de diggers were there

Tafski

It has come to my attention that comments i made about the safety aspects and concerns i had about some of some of the work carried out by De Diggers had upset members and friends of this group. My concerns still stand but it was never my intention to cause upset to any member or friend of the group. I am aware they do worthwhile and often dangerous work for the good of others and am happy to say sorry to all involved.
Kind regards
Roland.

For what it's worth I thought that for once the posts you made on this thread were perfectly legitimate ones and on topic. Anyone disagreeing with the points you raised was free to make their point of view known as you had. Valuable as I'm sure much of the Diggers work is I'm not aware that they or their various activities enjoy some special immunity from criticism or questioning.

Have to say I agree with George and I hope that Roland's apology will be accepted in the spirit of reconciliation in which it is made.

Jim

[quote name='George Armstrong Custer' date='Dec 4 2008, 11:31 AM' post='1069121']


GAC,
some of rolands "points" were more like statements, and in some cases had little or no basis in fact, De Diggers work is invaluable in the area they work, and to many people their collective experience is irreplaceble, whenever questioned, Frans will give an answer, as for criticism as long as it's constructive and comes from those with experience of what they do that's fair, but when criticised by those with no experience or who have never even visited the battlefields, that i find unacceptable,.

Do you. That's your privilege. As others have the right to form their own views.

[quote name='Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson' date='Dec 4 2008, 07:48 PM' post='1069506']
Willy it seems you want to " meet " everyone.


roland hello, i am a real friendly type, allways think it better to meet people face to face to discuss important issues, welcome back.

Hello........................... is anybody out there?. What has happened to the "DIGGERS" it would be nice to know.

There was an article on the forum not long ago which was in Dutch or Flemish. I never saw a complete translation but it seemed to say that they were no longer authorised to dig. If there was a translation and I missed it, I'd love to be pointed towards it. Especially if I got the gist of the article wrong, as I was a great fan of De Diggers and looked forward to news and pics of their latest digs.

You know Tom, this is a really weird thing from both "the forum pals in Ypres" who visited Frans recently and from the diggers (Frans) as well:

also see this thread

That is the thread, Egbert and I see I was right. No better translation been offered. I was hoping it might have been a temporary thing but it seems not. Too bad.

Thanks for the responses, I have no wish to stir up any controversy I am just a little disappointed that there has been no definitive response from the group. When you consider the amount of postings regarding their excavations and the level of moral and no doubt practical support that they enjoyed from members of this forum it would surely be in order that a situation report be posted even if the effect on the groups activities have proved to be negative. Bear in mind that there are 80 pages devoted to the group on the forum so hardly a minor topic.

I have also posted this on the other thread.

Norman

as stated on the other thread this was a private visit and nothing to do with you or the forum as suggested why not contact him yourself if you are so concerned
tafski

Why not wait till the Diggers make a statement perhaps they do not reply to this current topic as they are as much in the dark as we are . And least said least mended at the moment . Let sleeping dogs be and wait with PATIENCE for a official responce from the Diggers which will come in due course .

Dan

Just a thought for the Mods.

As we have two threads up and running on this topic, would it be possible either to merge them, or close one (probably the other one)?

I would close this one for the time being, until such time as Frans is able to resume it. After all, this thread was developed (and was mostly used) for keeping people informed about the work of the Diggers. If the Diggers are unable to carry out any work and provide reports, then it is this thread which is superfluous for the time being.

The other thread, is discussing a different matter - calling for current news about the Diggers.

Tom

My take is that De Diggers are most unhappy at the current situation. They feel slightly betrayed that much of their good work has been overlooked and the neg side of their work has been picked up on. They seem worried that comment on the situation may be taken out of context.

Tom,
Agreed. I will close this thread until the FACTS are known with regard to the Diggers. I hope that Frans will make a statement as to the status of the Diggers to put everyone's mind at rest and stop people's opinions or takes on the situation. So Dan's post is very apt, can we have the patience to await any news based on facts.

Any further information or posts can go in the other thread for the meantime until this is re-opened.

Andy

Over the next three weeks we will be repairing and laying new trenchboards in the Yorkshire Trench.
On the foto is forum member John Reed who is making the trenchboards ready for when al the old boards have been removed.


Trenchboards ready for placing in the trench next week.

The best thread on the fourm breaths again, brilliant,

Kevin

I have just discovered this thread and read it right through from start to finish. Great work by De Diggers.

There are some emotive issues raised and some fervent and impassioned debates, but it should remind us all that "jaw, jaw is better than war, war" - any time.

As someone used to say "it's good to talk".

Keep up the great work and I look forward to the continuing story.

Frans ... it's great to see you ! ...... we've missed you and your Diggers

As Kevin says " The best thread on the forum breaths again "

Welcome home !

Annie

Salut!!!!

Nice to see Mr Reed working for a living!!!!!!!!

Good work all, keep it up.

TT

Thats a real man - tool belt and everything!!

The start of the cleanup session today, interupted several time by visitors, half of the trench boards removed and skipped. I was lucky I found one euro under the boards and one pen. Patrick and Ronny worked with me.


John

A sincere thank-you Frans, for the work you and the others do to maintain this section of trench, that due due the Diggers earlier work we are able to enjoy and learn from today.
regards
Tom