In a related topic, 'Kireçtepe-Suvla - the front line', some details are discussed regarding the front line at Suvla. I would like to zero in on the front line and no-man's-land of map Section C of the British sector at Suvla.

Situated between the British and Turkish front lines on the map is shown a structure called 'Dublin Castle'. During late August early September the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers spent considerable time in the front lines and reserve trenches in this area of the Suvla sector. I believe my grandfather might have been wounded in the leg during this time.

Does anyone know or have information on this part of the front? Was 'Dublin Castle' some kind of fort or stronghold? Any photos of it? Unfortunately the Dublin's official history does not mention it or in fact much at all during this time. Possibly due to the high level of sickness and evacuation that was occuring. Wondering why it remained in no-man's-land, I'd of thought either Turks or Brits would have tried to incorporate it into their trench system?

Any ideas or help or photos welcome? I don't know much about this area of Gallipoli

Brian

There is not a lot to see on the ground here, though it is by no means flat and there are some hillocks, the entire area being covered with low scrub and some trees, probably much as it was in 1915. It is around the area where the 5th Norfolks disappeared.

You might contact the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association for more information.

http://www.greatwar.ie/assoc.html

Erwin

Brian.

No. It was simply a physical feature (probably a rock!!!) that for some reason might have reminded somebody of Dublin Castle.

(fortifications, etc, are shown in either red or green on these maps (depending who held them), physical features in black)

Dave

Hi

I am not entirely sure, but this feature may have been known as Carisbrooke Castle, to the Lads of the Isle of Wight Rifles, 8th Hants. It is apprximately in the area I understood it to be. perhaps each battalion named it after their own local castle until one stuck.

I am desperate for trench maps of the area, have you got anymore?

Gareth

Gareth.

I think that that map is part of one that I posted on another thread. I've got the whole Gallipoli front(s) covered in this detail - it's from the Official History and shows (mainly) the lines from Dec 1915 and January 1916. I've also got a couple of others that aren't from the OH and show a little more (trench) detail (but mainly from the lines in front of Krithia). Let me know exactly what you need.

Dave.

Thank you to Erwin, Martin, Gareth and especially Dave for posting the maps.

Regarding the trench maps, they're from the OH (Official History of Gallipoli (by Aspinal Oglander)? I copied it from another thread in 'Other Theatres' posted by Croonaert. They are the most detailed maps I've seen although I think there are some very intricate ones in existence. Sorry but I can't help you out much here.

Dave - with all due respect, are you sure it would just be a physical feature (rock or hill or whatever)? What about ruins of a building?
As for Dublin Castle being just a physical feature - I'm not convinced of this yet. It appears on several published trench maps, and is represented by a small balck rectancle. This is a map symbol for a structure of some sort. If we look at other such symbols on the Suvla trench maps of Gallipoli we see things like "The White House" and "The Farm" which are buildings or ruins to my knowledge. There are others in the Helles sector as well such as "Pink Farm" etc.

Maybe someone has a photo if we get really lucky.
Gareth, maybe you can look deeper into your info on Carisbrooke castle?

Thanks again!
Brian

Hi Dave

I am attempting to sort out the advance of 163 Brigade on the 12th August, you know the one, Space aliens, loaf shaped clouds, and the whole of the Sandringham estate disappearing.

I want to match it up the sketch of the Brigade disposition in Dick Rayners article "The Sandringhams at Suvla Bay". I cannot work out if as stated, the 5th Norfolks were given an order to half wheel right, why they didn't cross the front of 159 Brigade and run parallel to it. Also from the very small sketch maps I have seen, to have parts of two companies end up in the so called farm, would appear to needed a half wheel left from the start position. Then that would have put them parallel with the 8th Hants as they advance with them and their right flank in the air as appears to have been the case. So my pet theory is the given order was confused to half wheel left in the heat of the moment and all the lads charge into destiny

Something in Dick’s article just doesn’t seem right to me.

Also as the good old 8th Hants were part of the same attack I need to gain some understanding of the ground for an article I have been asked to write to mark the ninetieth anniversary.

I have read some of the past posts on this, but the attachments have been wiped.


Could chat about this all day. Gareth

Brian.

Don't forget that there never were any "officially" published "trench-maps" of Gallipoli. It was never surveyed enough in depth during the fighting there to produce them and, it must be borne in mind that this was still only in it's infancy on the Western Front where most of the cartographical efforts were focussed.

The "trench diagram maps" of Gallipoli that existed in 1915/16 were locally produced efforts based on sketch maps and hand drawings and were printed locally also (similar in effect to those encountered on the Western Front from Sept 1914 to August(ish) 1915). Accuracy was very suspect and, the few that were based on already existing maps, were usually drawn using a base map of 1850's antiquity.

Dave.

(PS. . As you say, I suppose it possibly could be an "unheld" ruin or whatever. Perhaps in an untenable position, that's why it sits in no-man's land? I don't know, but I wouldn't have said it was a stronghold or fortification. If it is a ruin, it's more likely to be an old farm building or something)

...or did you mean later published maps showing trenches such as those in the histories, etc?

Dave.

There were some very detailed trench maps produced of some areas at Gallipoli - parts of Suvla amongst them but they are not the easiest of things to come by. I have a copy of one showing the "Hetman Chair" area. They seem to be linked to aerial photograph surveys made in September 1915.

Generally, though, there are not trench maps as we know them. Some maps produced later in the campaign were retained and reused by the printing section who used the blank reverse sides to print maps of E some of which exist in the Egypt & Palestine map collection at the IWM (the Gallipoli obverse sides are not cataloged as such.

A very detailed map surveyed by the Turks in 1916 exists in three copies. One in the Turkish Archives; one at the AWM and the third lodged at the Bodlean Library (I would like to search out the latter one day...).

Apart from the British Official History maps there are maps included in the Australian Official History and an excellent trench diagram of the broader ANZAC area in the NZ history not to mention the excellent maps in the Nevinson history of the Dardanelles campaign. The 6th Ghurkhas history also includes some fine maps of areas where the Ghurkhas fought.

As a general rule, I categorise what is often referred to as "trenchmaps" into 4 groups -

1/"Trench-maps" (officially produced at the time, accurate and (usually) fully surveyed using established bases and produced in anything between 1:2500 scale upto 1:40,000),

2/"Trench Diagram maps" (semi-officially produced at the time, quite innacurate in places and only partly surveyed, sometimes with no established base (ie the "Gallipoli maps") .

3/ "Maps of trenches" (encompasses a wide range, quite often officially produced after the war, quite often accurate using and war-time surveys and plans)

4/ "Trench sketch maps" (such as those encountered in War Diaries , reports and many histories - usually hand-drawn, sometimes from memory, quite often innacurate with no topographical info, but enough for small scale ops on the ground).

Dave.

You might care to check out:

Tim Travers and Birten Celik, "'Not one of them ever came back': What Happened to the 1/5 Norfolk Battalion on 12 August 1915 at Gallipoli?" The Journal of Military History 66 (April 2002): 389-406.

Travers and Celik review a deal more Turkish material than Rayner used. In general though, there are no big surprises.

Rob Carman.

Hi Rob

I am not looking for big surprises, the two survivors of the attack I knew as a boy, did not see any mystery and one was quite cross that The Rifles never got a mention. I just wish I could have known and remembered more when these wonderful old men were there to talk to. One would talk, not in detail, but would give a general impression of the day.

As I am as woefully ignorant of the “Journal of Military History” as I am with most other things. I have tried briefly to find an on-line copy, but although it is catalogued at various university libraries, it does not appear to be readily available. How can I get hold of a copy, is the only way the expensive intra library photocopy service.


Gareth

Gareth, I can check our local university for a copy of the relevant journal and won't mind copying it for you - if you don't mind a slight wait to copy and post it to you? Still cheaper and faster than inter-library loan.
PM me and let me know.
Brian

Okay, I checked online today and the university here in town does in fact carry the specific issue!
I would simply have to go and photocopy it and post it along to you, which I am happy to do if you let me know.

Cheers,
Brian

Could someone please explain what "The Journal of Military History" is, is it a magazine for university folk only available via a library!! My great great uncle Ernest William Beart went "missing" with the 5th Norfolks on 12 August 1915 and I'd be interested to read the aforementioned article.

Many thanks
Sandra

Dear Brian,

I would love to help you and I will... after a while as I am now frequently visting & walking that area of Suvla.

I am living here in the area and I "think" I have been to Dublin Castle (no Guinness though when I got there !!) (On a sort of ditch, covered with low "trees")

Even with trench maps this area is not easy ... (Martin-the expert-now that as well)... A stone is a stone, a tree is a tree .... and they very much look alike.

But I have commited myself to get to the end of it ... It will take some time that's all.


eric

Eric,

Thanks for the kind offer, it is greatly appreciated!
I suppose even in 1915 it might have just been a low ruin of sorts so will be quite challenging to find and identify... but good luck and enjoy the chase!

Cheers,
Brian

Dear All,

Is there anybody out there who has taken GPS coordinates of certain places ??

If yes please let me have them ....

eric

I have just been browsing this thread rather belatedly. Croonaert - Do you have any trench maps that would cover the area between Chocolate Hill and Scimitar Hill please, either from published material or from original documents? If so, any chance of a copy, please?

Also, does anyone happen to know if there were any Turkish trench maps covering the Scimitar Hill area?

Kind regards
John Shephard (Thales)
john.shep@tiscali.co.uk

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here so bear with me please My great uncle stephen (JJ) byrne 10774 was gazetted 22 jan 1916... " acting serjeant S. Byrne, 1st Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers. For conspicuous gallantry on the night of 2nd-3rd October, 1915, on the Gallipoli peninsula. When a serjeant and one man of a covering party near "dublin castle" had been wounded, volunteers were called for to rescue them. They were lying between some Turkish snipers and some huts. Acting Serjeant Byrne and two men at once volunteered and brought the wounded men into safety under heavy fire." He received a DCM for the above but would love to know any details or any info on DCMs and about Stephen Byrne, also known as JJ byrne on some army records. His first theatre of war was the Balkans on 9/8/15. Does anyone know what EF/5/10180 on records mean? Oh he survived the war by the way and seemingly spent most of his life in England where he died sometime in 1950s I think. Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks a mill

Ger

Thales,

I think you will probably ned to make a trip to the National Archives - they do have a small series of maps in 1/10,000 of the Suvla bay front line which will include the chocolate hill/scimitar hill area and the Dublin Castle area.

I may be wrong but I don't think that the Turkish maps there cover the area in any great detail. Pre campaign turkish maps were used as a basis for some Allied maps and the Turkish survey of the battlefield in 1916 (?) I don't think stretches out into Suvla Bay territory - though it's a fair while since I worked through these maps.

Martin

Thanks for that. In the time that has elapsed since I posted in June last year, I have looked at quite a few of the maps in TNA. As regards Turkish trench positions in the Scimitar Hill area, these have been plotted on the GHQ MEF maps by reference to aer photographs supplied by RNAS and although of later date it is possible to infer which trenches were in place at the time of second Anafartalar (August 21) by reference to intelligence reports based on information from captured Turkish POWs. Not very precise, but probably as accurate as it will be possible to get.

One thing that interests me with regard to the 1916 maps (1:5,000) - were the Turkish gun positions marked on the maps determined from documents or from traces still on the ground - i.e. archives or archaeology / field work?

Ger

Apologies for digressing from your enquiry - back to your interests now....

John

Checking, I find that the 1916 Turkish survey did include Suvla Bay. I believe the Turkish 1916 survey was done principally "on the ground" - after all there were no enemy troops left after the evacuation. The maps are available on the WFA map DVD of Gallipoli.

You will see that v-beach has another thread here about Dublin Castle. The 1st RDF have a record of it, but the map is too vague to give an exact position



v-beach has a detailed explanation as to the most probable position of Dublin Castle