War memorials in Catholic churches are very unusual in Ireland and I would be interested to know whether this is the case elsewhere in the world? I am interested in memorials to members of the congregation rather than to individual soldiers. I don't really know where to start finding out about this, so I thought I'd put it out to the forum!
Swizz

St Joseph's RC here in Scotland has a marble Memorial which is carried out from a backroom and held up when they have a Remembrance service and it is then put back in a cupboard till next year.
Photo attached.
Aye
Malcolm

Swizz - I've come across zilch in memorial tablet form. Certainly CWGC graves are scattered here and there ... a 1916 McManus can be found in Crebilly Churchyard for example. Interestingly, I've seen a pic of the grave with an Easter Lily laid on it.
In terms of hard info. ... the old Weekly Telegraph must have assigned reporters to go around all denominations to gather 'rolls of honour'
I know they did this in Ballymena District and on one occasion featured All Saints Parish Church.
Best I can do on that front.

Thanks for the pic Malcolm - its interesting that the inscription is very different to memorials I've seen in different Protestant churches. Reflects the different approaches to what happens after death, I suppose.

Des - I've seen a few wartime appeals for Rolls of Honour but I get the impression that it was unusual for Catholic churches to have them. Certainly the Armagh Guardian was complaining about it in the summer of 1916. I had a look at some material to do with the compilation of names for the Derry memorial and it was interesting to note that the way in which names were sent in from different churches differed. The secretary of the war memorial committee wrote to all the city's clergy asking them for the names of the dead from their churches - Protestant clergymen tended to copy out the list of names from their war memorials, or else enclose the Order of Service for its unveiling which usually included the list of names. There appears to have been no record of the names of Catholic soldiers, since in the case of one RC church a meeting had to be held one evening to get the names, while in another the priest (who had arrived since the war) had to ask round the congregation.

All very interesting (I think anyway!)
Swizz

Swizz

I have been researching men from an RC Church in my home town of Coventry. The church itself was built as a memorial to local Roman Catholics killed in WW1, which first drew my attention to it. Unfortunately the memorial naming the men was destroyed in an air raid in WW2. However, further investigation revealed a memorial book, apparently incomplete, with the ranks, names and regiments of quite a number of men, in the church safe! It might be worth digging a bit deeper.

Terry Reeves

Balerno Roll of Honour.

Aye
Malcolm

Hello

I know that in the church I went to as a boy (St Helen's in Westcliff - on -Sea, Essex) there was a window commemorating a parishioner who was killed in (I think) 1917, but no other memorial in the church itself. However, there is a memorial of sorts in the grassed area in front of the church which simply states "In Memoriam" & IIRC gives the dates 1914 - 1918 & 1939 - 1945. When it was moved to it's current location, I asked the parish priest why no names were inscribed, & he replied that they had no records of the parishioners who fell, & it was feared they would miss out some names if they attempted to compile one (this would have been the early 1980's).

I believe that this may be the case with many Catholic parishes, as they would have had to rely on being old by the relatives, whereas a C of E church just had to list those from the area on any memorial (due to the fact that it represented the "established Church, I understand).

Good Luck with your research

Mark

Doing various pics, I have not seen any. Ideed, the most notable thing about RC churches in my area is the number that have been sold off with, of course, the graveyards maintained.

Martin

Huddersfield’s Father McCartney paid for a memorial plaque dedicated to about twenty-five men from the Dock Street area at Turnbridge, and had it fastened to a wall in the area where they had lived. He paid for everything himself and said a mass both in the church and at the memorial. When the area was demolished during slum clearance the plaque was taken to a local council yard, and at some point it appears to have vanished into thin air.

Tony.

Memorials of any sort are unusual in Catholic churches in Ireland, apart from small brass plates on the backs of pews. On my website (see below) the only large war memorial found so far is in St. Mary's Church, Haddington Road, Dublin 4. There are memorials to individuals in the Church of the Visitation, Fairview, Dublin 3, Star of the Sea Church, Sandymount, Dublin 4, St. Brigid's Church, Cabinteely, Co. Dublin and St. Patrick's Church, Kilquade, Co. Wicklow.

If you know of any others anywhere on the island of Ireland, please send me a record. The form can be downloaded from the website, and photographs may be sent by e-mail or post.

Michael Pegum

I can only make a comment on the place where I live (South Edmonton, at the time often called "Strathcona"), and even there I have scanty information.

At the time, following the situation in most towns on the Canadian prairies, there were ten or twelve churches distributed over a like number of denominations. Permanent memorials in stone or metal were not common, but "Rolls of Honour" were common, apparently following the pattern adopted by the Books of Remembrance in Ottawa. I suspect that some churches, such as the German Lutheran and German Moravian Churches, had no memorial.

I know at least that the Catholic Church had a Roll of Honour, as did the major Anglican (there seems to have been two Anglican parishes).

Unfortunately, few of the 1914 churches still exist under their original communities (except the Anglican). The rest have long since been pulled down. It is quite possible that whatever memorials once existing have not survived.

There is a memorial at All Saints & Holy Cross RC at Warley Essex listing the names of Catholics who died. This is on an outside wall of the Church and last time I looked it was somewhat obscured by a pile of material placed against it. The RC Church is immediately opposite Christ Church C of E andI did read that shortly after the war Christ Church set up a Committee to decide and plan the best way of remembering the men of Warley and decided upon a memorial brass tablet in the Church. The Catholic community was asked to provide their list of names but refused saying that they wanted their own memorial.

Patrick

I've went round most of the Catholic churches in Belfast re memorials....some have become very irate..none have had a memorial..(except a stained glass window to an IRA man!!!)

All these replies are really interesting. I get the impression that war memorials inside Catholic churches are relatively unusual everywhere, but particularly so in Ireland. Of course I'm open to correction on this point!
Swizz

PS Mark -just out of interest (and if you're prepared to say), where is the stained glass window you mention?

Maybe they are not so rare elsewhere. Here's one I saw last year in Portoferraio on Elba. It's a whole memorial chapel for the Great War

Michael

Putting aside - if we can - all the varying arguments about partition and who did what to who and why ...
What I find disappointing is that I have some truly honest, heartfelt newspaper obituaries to Catholic soldiers who died. One of the most evocative is that to Barney McCann who became an officer after serving in the ranks at Gallipoli.

I've posted his obit before but I think this is the right thread to post it again. I know many people from the Catholic faith locally who are truly interested in the part played by their ancestors. It really is a pity that there are very few .. if any .. memorials to them in the places they worshipped. They are really deserving of rememberance.

Here's Barney. Note that he attended Ballymena Academy. A class from that school will be at the Menin Gate in the next few days. If any Pals see them give them a cheery word from me.
Des

2nd Lt. B. J. McCann
We regret to announce this week, the death in action of 2nd Lt. B. J. McCann, Royal Irish Rifles. The official intimation, which was received on Sunday last by his father, Mr. Hugh McCann of Broughshane Road, Ballymena, stated that the sad event happened on November 14th and the news occasioned considerable regret when it became
known.
Deceased, who was only 22 years of age, enlisted in the Connaught Rangers as a private, about two years ago and, after training at Fermoy and in the Cadet Corps he volunteered for the 10th (Irish) Division and went to the Dardanelles where he was transferred to the Munster Fusiliers, with whom he took part in the landing at Suvla Bay.
He was subsequently wounded and invalided home. He obtained his commission in July last and was attached to the Royal Irish Rifles. After further training at Clandeboye, he proceeded to the front about 11 weeks ago.
Prior to enlisting he was employed by Mr. John P. McCann, solicitor, Ballymena. The deceased who was most popular in local football circles was a brother in law to Mr. Charles Connell JP and to Mr. J. Marley, postmaster,
Ballymena.
At a subsequent meeting of Ballymena Urban District Council, the following eloquent tribute was paid by a Cllr. Beaumont.
The Observer reported: "He called to mind an incident which had impressed him some years ago, at an annual prize distribution of the Ballymena Academy. On being called to the platform to receive his prize, Bertie McCann got such a rousing reception from his schoolfellows that a friend seated beside him in the hall remarked that he would rather have had that reception - which was a striking testimony to his popularity - than the best prize given away that day."
At the weekly meeting of Ballymena Gaelic Class a resolution of sympathy with the relatives of the deceased officer was passed. As a mark of respect, the teaching of Irish Dancing was adjourned for the evening.
Ballymena Observer, November 24, 1916

It is not really normal to have any sort of memorial inside a catholic church in N. Ireland.

Any that you find will be gifts paid for by the families or private individuals and are usually items to do with the Chapel, be it a baptism fount or a stained glass window or an altar.

If I remember correctly it has to do with how the Irish Catholic church remembers the dead. Catholic's pray for souls of their dead and other religions remember their dead. I could be wrong but I think I remember being given such an explaination.

A lot of Larne catholic's died on the Princess Victoria in 1953 but there is no memorial in the Larne Chapel but prayers are said every year for their souls.

Liam

Good point Liam - the traditional 'RIP' / 'In loving memory' gravestone inscriptions illustrate your point.
I think I offended some pals in my early Forum days by explaining that lots of die-hard Orangemen ended up with RIP on their wooden cross graves!!
Took some explaining to demonstrate I was not making a 'point' .. if you know worra mean!!

Des

this is all really interesting and I absolutely agree with Des's point in relation to the poignancy of some of the obituaries. It's a pity that the whole thing is so wrapped up in politics - to be honest I hesitated to even start the thread in the first place due to this aspect.

Liam - what you say about prayers for the dead rings a bell with me. I must find out more about that.
thanks again to everyone for their contributions on this.

"war memorials inside Catholic churches are relatively unusual everywhere"

No, Swizz, they are not!
From my experience they were (and are quite) common in many older German RC churches - inside in some chapels or in a separate room under the church-tower or outside on the church walls as well as in most cemeteries (close to as well as far away from churches).
Regards
Daniel

Thanks Daniel, I'm interested to hear about these German examples.

when I wrote the bit you quote I was thinking of a quote I had found in a book about war commemoration:

'Other than those to wealthy benefactors, there is a general paucity of lay memorials inside Catholic churches worldwide.'

To me, this statement does seem a bit sweeping which was why I thought the forum (with its international membership) was a good place to ask about this point. But from what people have posted, I get the impression that memorials (in the sense of something which honours members of the congregation rather than particular individuals) are less common in RC churches than their Protestant counterparts.

But I'm quite happy to be proved wrong!
Swizz

'Catholic'? Much depends upon the national context. France is a Catholic country but there are relatively few memorials in churches. They are not unknown, but they are thinner on the ecclesiastical ground. The reason is that service in the armed services was regarded as a civic duty and not a religious one. The phrase 'For God, King and Country' is a phrase with no meaningful French counterpart. 'Morts pour la France' or 'Morts pour la Patrie', to quote two phrases commonly found on French memorial, mean that whoever else the listed names died for, it was neither for God nor the Head of State - it was for France. All the French dead are therefore likely to be commemorated on a civic memorial, usually located outwith religious premises, rather than a religious one.
The Republic of Ireland is different. There are some superb war memorials in Ireland, and some CWGC headstones, but they, too, are thin on the ground, especially once one moves outside Anglicised Dublin. To understand why this is the case one needs to understand what happened in that country after 1918. One does not have to agree with it, but one does need to understand it.

I suppose we should be a bit careful about how we react to memorials in churches. Many of us use these to find out about servicemen of the Great War because there are few other sources of information. As I see it, the reason these memorials exist at all is, firstly, that a parish community acts as an extended family in remembering its ancestors, and secondly, the religious doctrine encourages memorializing and kinship with those who have gone before. (Incidentally, there are fascinating discussions, of a Talmudic nature, of the difference between tombstones as memorials and as grave markers!).

This said, a church is constructed primarily for liturgical purposes, not for the benefit of the historically curious. There are norms to discourage erecting stuff that might distract from the liturgy. Since every church seems to attract a clutter of items from well meaning parishioners wishing to memorialize their dearly departed for all eternity, the available space can get cluttered up quite quickly. I have often mused that the most valuable member of any community is the fellow who can arrange to “lose” stuff quietly and in such a way that it will never be found.

I hope I am not offending anyone. I merely emphasize that churches erect (and remove!) memorials for reasons other than those which motivate ourselves.

Hi Michael
will submit pics for

[1] Killorglin RC Co Kerry inside entrance porch at upper right wall
In stone: Dodd brothers x 3 KIAs 1917-1918 with MGC, RFC, RMF
Brass Plaque: Lt. Power 33rd Punjabis KIA E Africa Nov 1917

[2] St Theresa's RC Clarendon St,Dublin (Beside Bewleys Grafton St)
Lt O'Neill RDF 13/11/1916 5th attd 10th Bn on Pew - centre, right column

and if can find the pictures !

[3] was given one photo for a KIA in Holy Redeemer RC Bray Co Wicklow

[4] Galway RC Cathedral has a Connaught Rangers Memorial Window

[5] The RC church by the Treaty stone in Limerick (bridge beside the Castle) has an Irish Guardsman commemorated near front entrance.

[6] The RC church outside the entrance to Renmore barracks Galway has the regiment's Boer War dead commemorated inside to left but don't recall any WWI

At least three of Preston's Catholic Churches have WW1 memorials, St Wilfrid's has a large memorial on one wall inscribed with the names of the men of the parish who fell; St Ignatius has a stone memorial outside the main doors with metal plaques inscribed with the names of the dead. The most spectacular is St Walburge's memorial - see:

http://www.ww1cemeteries.com/british_cemet...alburges_wm.htm

Dave Swarbrick

In Edinburgh at least 3 RC churches have memorials/ rolls of honour, Sacred Heart, Lauriston, St Cuthbert's, Slateford and St Mary's Cathedral. I think St Patrick's Cowgate also has a memorial although I have not seen it.

Kevin

Sorry I am late on this link, but it has solved a problem for me. In Kingston, Ontario there also seem to be no memorials in RC Churches (nor the Cathedral); the one plaque which I know existed for a fraternal organisation has disappeared, and the RC High School has a very incorrect Roll of Honour for both World Wars. I thought it was a local anomaly; now I know that it isn't. Peter
Editor Kingston Volunteers: The Thing To Do

I don't recall ever seeing a memorial inside an RC church in Newfoundland. I recall seeing one outside the church and at one of the RC schools. Just for comparison I know there is a memorial in the Presbyterian church in St. John's.

Likewise, I have not seen a memorial inside an RC church here in Newfoundland. The RC Church in my hometown had one outside, as did many others that I recall. The Basillica of St. John the Baptist in St. John's, the head RC church in the Provience, does not have one inside or on the grounds. This is, as Ed has stated, in contrast to most other denominational churches, in the city at least, which have a memorial inside the church.

Chris

A couple of years back, one of our local churches had an item in the press saying they were going to consider a memorial plaque for the church. They were asking parishioners for possible names. I wrote to the priest offering assistance in helping to draw up the WW1 names (using information from my website) but never heard anything.

I have an on going Honour Roll for St Francis Gorton Manchester ( Gorton Monastery ) ...... there was an Honour Roll there originally ( in fact I have a picture with just a little of it showing !! ) but no one can find it now ... so I've tried to re-create it ... though I have every reason to believe I've added many who weren't on the original and I've missed some that were !!

http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie/

Annie

First of all thanks for this interesting thread.
St Mary Magdalene's RC church in Seaham has a memorial enscibed with the names of parishoners who did not return. In addition the Stations of the Cross each have a casualtys' name on them.
Regards
John

Neither my childhood church of St. Basil's (1856 - Toronto) or my current church St. Andrew's (1840 - Oakville) have war memorials, although there is a general armed forces memorial window at St. Andrew's, which I suspect was added in the 1950s, when Oakville was home to Central Command.

As side note, Fr. Gerald Anglin CSB won the MC and bar in the First War, before he was ordained. He was at St. Basil's in my youth.

Sorry - I hadn't noticed that this thread had come back to life!

It seems like this is a widespread thing then, and not limited to Ireland. Are there any specific church regulations about what can be put up inside the church?

It's a slight diversion from the topic, but some time ago I was talking to a (Catholic) friend about her visit to an Anglican church. Her comment - and I thought this was an interesting observation - was that she felt like there was a much greater sense of community in the Anglican church because of all the memorials, including war memorials, to members of the congregation. She felt that in comparison, the absence of similar memorials in Catholic churches she had been in meant that there wasn't the same sense of community there.

I'm not saying she was wrong or right - just that it was an interesting observation.

Swizz

I am unable to remember seeing a war memorial in a Catholic church and I think that your friend has a point there Swizz.

In St Patrick's Chapel in Westminster Cathedral there are plaques with the name and badge of each of the Irish regiments and the RIC but no memorials.

Have you seen this site, which lists some memorials in RC Church's as well as other Church's.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~wlawless/ww1/Dublin.htm

Peter

I would say that most of the Catholic churches that I have visited over the years have had some sort of memorial to their war dead but very few have had any other sort of memorial to "ordinary" parishioners. I suspect it's to do with the different way in which the dead are seen by the Catholic and Anglican communities. It is very common in Catholic churches for Mass to be offered for named deceased parishioners and their names are often read out in prayers, a kind of "virtual" memorial if you will. I don't think that happens in the same way in Anglican churches, there the stone memorials keep the names of the dead alive.

Hope that's not too fanciful,

Dave Swarbrick

For Canada there is also the aspects of a) the originating nature immigrants who chose to come to Canada were between 1896 and 1914 (mainly British, followed by Americans and overwhelmingly Protestant) anglophilism and imperialism dominating Canadian political cultural landscape which clearly shut out openly Catholics from some public offices (such as advancing or even being accepted on some cases in the teaching profession) c) French Canadian Catholic alientation from the British Empire and the war generally in part which can be considered as part of above d) actual war events most importantly of course the 1917 - 1918 Conscription crisis which heightened this overall cultural and religious alienation. In short there are some war memorials in Canadian Catholic churches but generally their interiors (and usually exteriors as well) are barren of such reminders. St. Michael's Cathedral in downtown Toronto does have an exterior ww1 memorial.
John
Toronto

I don't know about other areas but the Catholic Church in Newfoundland, St. John's in particular, had a very strong sense of community prior to and after the war. The Catholic Cadet Corps that was started in the 1890's stayed in existance until the 1930's. I don't know of any specefic church regulations but I don't think it was for lack of community. Interestingly enough one of the older Catholic Schools in the city, St. Bonnaventures Collage, has a memorial to those from the school who served during the First and Second World Wars in the main enterance.

Chris

In Canada the Anglican Church referred to in Canada as the Church of England until the early 1920's occupied a somewhat different political and corporate position in relationship to Canadian society overall. There was no official church in Canada. Provincial Canadian parliamentarians openly declared in the mid-19th century that all Christian Churches were equal. However, the overwhelming British cultural domination elevated Anglican churches due to massive immigration and the paucity of direct governmental community interventions until the First World War as the primary socializing institution in most Canadian communities. Social welfare of most kinds, political actions and the like were typically centered on the local church. Hence the preponderance in Canada (and presumably most other places throughout the former British Empire) of Anglican churches proudly displaying both collective and individual war related memorials in direct contrast to other faiths including Roman Catholic (both English and French catholic churches).
John
Toronto

I am not an expert in this, but using the magic of Goggle and the Internet I have come up with a few bits of stuff.

Much of the Church's "Legislation" is included in "The Code of Canon Law", which is the ancestor (in form, at least!) of all our Western Legal Codes. The most recent revision was published in 1983, and brought things into line with the work of the Second Vatican Council held in the late 1950s and early 1960s. One section is concerned with "Sacred Places and Times", which includes Churches. The relevant Canon reads thus:

"Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place."

The previous version of the Code, that of 1917, does not seem to have a similar Canon. However, the only version I have found on-line is in Latin, and my scholarly virtues do not extend that far.

Thus, one might say that the modern trend has been to move away from putting non-liturgical stuff in Churches. I would suggest that as new Churches have been built over the last half century, and old ones renovated, things like memorials have become more rare.

Once again, I am neither an authority nor an expert and do not mean to cause controversy.

I have a small collection of pictured plaques, windows, pews etc dedicated as WW1 memorials in churches of various denominations throughout Australia. The Darwin Catholic Cathederal has stained glass windows etc mainly dedicated to WW2 service units rather than individuals.

A favourite is a small brass plate in memory of Pte Neild. It is on a column in the catholic church attached to the school that my mum attended during WW1. Saint Iggy's, Richmond, Victoria.


E00051 Maker: Unknown Place made: France: Picardie, Somme, Longueval Date made: December 1916 Physical description: Black & white Summary: The conditions immediately behind the front during the Somme winter. Infantrymen drinking coffee at the Australian Comforts Fund stall. The men serving at this stall are 3774 Private (Pte) A Gunn and 3209 Pte C Neild. Pte Gunn was killed on 25 March 1917 when the Bapaume Town Hall was blown up by a delayed German mine. Pte Neild, was killed in action on 27 March 1917 at Bapaume. Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain

[quote name='Armidale' date='Oct 5 2009, 11:16 AM' post='1277549']
I have a small collection of pictured plaques, windows, pews etc dedicated as WW1 memorials in churches of various denominations throughout Australia. The Darwin Catholic Cathederal has stained glass windows etc mainly dedicated to WW2 service units rather than individuals.

A favourite is a small brass plate in memory of Pte Neild. It is on a column in the catholic church attached to the school that my mum attended during WW1. Saint Iggy's, Richmond, Victoria.


Thanks for this post. You raise further interesting points. One of these is that families with the local parish's blessing (or indifference?) contemporarilly memorialized their loved lost ones. Over time these memorials became politically sensitive (think of early and mid-1930's pacifism for example - or late 1950's and 1960's anti-war attitudes popular throughout Western societies) and were taken down or even given back or placed in negelected storeage. Some day this aspect of war memorialization of this war will be written as well. As well there is the history of how contemporary memorials have been embellished by well meaning modern day parishoners. For example, placing by Sunday school children of large paper cut out poppies in a respectful manner versus the deliberate "hiding away" of such memorials.

John
Toronto

G'day John

Well now that you mention it... there was an instance, within the last few years, where the parson [woteva] of a church [not RC] in suburban banned the standard RSL funeral services from 'his' church. He went on TV etc saying 'stuff' about flag draped coffins & the Last Post as glorifying war. The irony was that the parish was in the area from which Pompey Elliott's "Essendon Rifles" was drawn at the outbreak of WW1, and [don't quote me] I think there was some local fund raising to help either build or refurbish it. I was so disgusted I refused to 'pay attention' to the debate.

There is a war memorial in St Patrick's RC Church in Craigneuk, Wishaw, Lanarkshire, Scotland, there are no names on it but a religious quotation to all the men of the congregation who died in World war one, I will check the next time I am in the church.

Just remembered Our Lady's High School in Motherwell has a memorial chapel in the school dedicated to the 90 fallen of their school and St Joseph's School Motherwell who died in the 1939 - 45 war. there are some regimental plaques on the wall of the chapel. The Bishop of Motherwell says a mass for the fallen every november. The 90 names are read out by the senior boy and girl.

Our Lady's High RC School in Motherwell has a war memorial chapel in the school building, which commemorates the 90 pupils from the school and St Joseph's School, Motherwell which amalgamated a few years ago. The chapel has some plaques from the various services on the walls. The school has a mass every November which is celebrated by the the Bishop of Motherwell. The names of the dead are read out by the senior boy and girl.

I do remember that some years ago there was a discussion in a Catholic magazine about the non-observance of Remembrance Day by Catholic churches (our English speaking Scout Troop once went to the English speaking Catholic church on Remembrance Sunday and the leader (not a Catholic) was amazed that the event was not even mentioned. It never is (I could comment and have in the right places about people who claim to be discriminated against and yet refuse to join the most solemn day of the British calendar).

Outside Britain - especially in France - there are memorials in every church I have entered, but not Britain.

Dare I say that some of this is, I suspect because most of the priests are Irish (OK; I know, but they don't have a clue).

The outcome of the above discussion was that the Catholic church said officially that there was no need for memorials or services as there is something in Rome (a wall, I think) that fulfils the purpose (I couldn't follow the argument even at the time).

There hasn't been anything since to the best of my knowledge.