Why were so many Geordies in the ranks of the 11th R. Innis. Fus?
I've seen the ROH and there are a sizeable number in there. Was a draft from Tyneside/Durham etc sent over post July 1 1916?
Des

des,graham stewart might know,they may be those irishmen who didnt join the tyneside irish but elected to join a irish regt en bloc,bernard

Des & Co.
I've just passed onto Des a quick debrief on this subject, but it actually relates to the fact that 1,000 men from Northumberland & Durham were recruited from this region. Without going into huge swathes of facts and quotes the scheme began around December 1914 and they actually took over the Tyneside Scottish recruitng office at 17 Grainger Street. They even had a nice advertisement in the paper, plus they listed just about every man who came forward. Poor old Tyneside Jocks had to open up another office when they began recruitng their Depot Company's.

Originally they just wanted a company, but such was the success that a second company was raised. Then in the April the Skins Depot Commander wrote and asked for another 500.

The lads were a mixture of both Catholic and Protestant, but the bulk of them were actually Geordie pitlads rather than Irish, mainly coming from the coalfields of County Durham.

After that other Irish regiments came to Tyneside and even the 13th Glosters came and raised a company. Another great success was the Royal Naval Division who took hundreds from this area. If my memory serves me right Scottish Highland T.F.A. even came asking to recruit from this region, but they got the brush-off by Durham T.F.A.. Only the K.O.S.B. were successful and they took loads of lads from the Hartlepool area.

I'm exhausted now, but I would think every major city in the U.K. should have a similar story to tell, or is it unique to the North East?

Knackered,
Graham.

Well typed! Thanks very much. I'll give you a rest for now!

Click to view attachment












Desmond,
The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers advertisement.

Graham.

Thanks very much!
Reminds me of the recruiting posters of Napoleonic times.
Des

I am not aware of any particular affinity between NI or Inniskilling and God's Little Acre, but this was 1914. The average industrial worker did not receive any paid holiday, he had not travelled very far from home, and the War was marketed as more of a holiday than a serious fight ('it'll all be over by Christmas'). So why not join a regiment where at least the training offered the serious prospect of free travel to another part of the world? Why join the Tyneside Irish and have your training in Alnwick when you could join the Inniskillings and be trained in somewhere romantic like Ireland - or wherever? If you lived in 1914 Bowburn, Stanley or Esh Winning, then I imagine Ireland would have an appeal. On the other hand, if you joined the Durham Pals you did your training in Fencehouses. No contest, really.

Hedley,
By the time these lads were coming in December 1914, the 'Holiday' period was well and truely over, the lists of dead and wounded from Mons, Le Cateau, Nery and the Marne graced every newspaper in the land. It came even closer to home on the 16th December 1914 with the bombardment of Hartlepool and Scarborough, with 112 civilians killed and over 200 wounded. So it's doubtful if a winter holiday in Ireland was uppermost on their minds. What the Skins did offer was to get them out as soon as they were equipped and trained, something that was unlikely with Kitcheners new mobs.

As for the wanting to travel can't argue with that and it's well documented some lads travelled to parts of the country just for the hell of it and enlisted in units they'd never heard of.

One abiding factor with the pit lads is that the Durham coalfield was working a three day fortnight, so there was an element of 'putting food on the table'. Whatever the reason and it could be a combination of all three, the fact remains that by April 1915 over 30,000 Durham miners had enlisted with the colours, with half as many again coming from Northumberland(it had a smaller coalfield).

The consequences for the nation were dire, the Durham coalfield could only muster the day shift manned by the very young and old. It remained that way for months to come and it wasn't until the introduction of the Military Services Act in 1916 that coalmining becomes a reserved occupation.

Still what is done, is done and it's our job never to let the memory fade.

Regards,
Graham.

If it's any help, my village's war memorial in Essex has a "Skin" on it. Without retrieving my list from someone elses arcghive I cannot give you any details now but I'm guessing a late-war draft following casualties.

Adrian

Des, Graham and myself corrosponded some years ago about the number of Inniskillings in the Ulster Division from the North-East. Graham very kindly gave me a lot of information about casulties from this area that were Skins [or ex-skins]. At the time i was looking for a connection with the UVF who did have a small gun running operation in the North-east via various irish Landed Gentry who also owned land and coalmines up there ie Lord Londonderry.
There appeared no connection with Ulster and the men and their reasons for joining the Skins. However now there are a lot more research tools available on-line i think it may be worth another look.
On the Ulster Covenant site there are 65 men and Women from Jarrow that signed.
i don't know how big that town is compared with Newcastle but i bet there were a lot more of Ulster descent in the latter,where the Covenant wasn't signed.
Take the 1901 census and key in some common Ulster names, Elliott,McConnell [my family] and plenty Irish born men are found working in the North-East of England.How many of these or their English born sons served in the 36th.
May-be a look through soldiers died again might show something different.
Rob

Thank you Rob.

I may be wrong, but I was always lead to believe that over the years there had been a movement of workers between the shipyards of Belfast, Glasgow, and the North East.

As a result you can follow movement Irish and Ulster/Scots names. This could also explain the 65 people signing the covenant in Jarrow.

Leave this evening for the front, and will rest a while on the Tyneside seat, and think of them all regardless of who they served with.

I would like to know where these 65 names from Jarrow constituency come about.
Felling where all them names come from has always been under Gateshead.
Felling has never ever been in the Jarrow constituency............
You have opened up a can of worms here.........
I would not even be surprised them 65 people ever existed.
Cos they certainly never came from Jarrow
It just shows you after all these years how corrupt and perverted the figures of the Ulster Covenant were.
How many other corrupt addresses on that covenant from the rest of the country.
Half a million names my backside.
The true figure would of been more like few thousand.

Felling in the constituency of Jarrow haaaaaaaa

Jimmy - grow up. If the Tyneside Irish could raise a huge number of men (albeit not all with true Irish connections) I feel it would be entirely possible for a ship-bulding/heaby industry centre like Newcastle and District to have a small number of pro-union Irishmen amongst them.
Perhaps someone with access to census information can cast light on this.
Also James - it was 90 odd years ago and the depth of pro-union feeling was much greater than at any time since.
And, if you want a historical political row on the subject .. step right up. I'm yer man.

Well I can tell you categorically none of them people on that list ever came from or lived in Jarrow........
And the first name on the list from Felling (obvious I can't name him on here without my post being banned - so have a look yourself)
He happens to be the agent for all of them (now theres democracy for you)
Now it don't take much working out what Lodge he belonged to........

In fact what a good story it would make delving into the legitimacy of that so called Ulster Covenant now that it can be accessed freely online.....

Truth always surfaces don't it eventually...................

What a can of worms you have opened up bonny lad.............
You should be proud of yourself for fetching this discrepancy to light............ Well done friend..........

Proof please ..
and ask yourself .. why would anyone invent 65 names (half of them women) from Jarrow?
You seem to suggest that it was a widescale fraud? Take a look at contemporary pictures.
Feel free to post .. I assume you are talking about the agent being the Master of an Orange Lodge? Entirely possible and highly probable.
By the way, each town or district had an agent/agents. If you check you will see that the same 'form' is true throughout so your 'undemocratic' theory simply does not hold water.

Well i've checked through the first ten names on the 1901 census found none out of the thousands of them common names and none as it turns out are down for Jarrow living/born

Different story for Gateshead though (mind that does not prove nothing as lot of them are common names )
But its funny none turn up for Jarrow

See what you can turn up for the next ten or the whole 65 and prove me wrong, i'm not doing all the work for you.......

And after a few days your conspicuous by your abscence its obvious you have nothing to report.
I can't be fairer than that can I.

Jimmy - please write in English and then I will be able to grasp the direction of your argument.

Have you ever heard the term 'economic migrant'? And perhaps you should also remember that the Covenant was signed more than 10 years after the census you are consulting.

I repeat my point, when you have a million odd unionists in Ireland at the time, plus huge support in a Scotland which was subject to a sectarian divide, THEN add in the overwhelming belief in the values of Empire, I fail to see how you believe that the Ulster Covenant is a fake document.

You state that the true figure for those signing the Ulster Covenant would only be 'a few thousand' .... I'll pass that on to all the historians.

They will be gobsmacked by your insight.

And don't call me Bonnie Lad.

Here I have went one better the first 10 names on the covenant they signed in 1912 I have checked the 1910 householders record for jarrow
So here goes 2 years before the signing...........
And the first ten on the covenant are all males........

JARROW HOUSEHOLDER 1910
Simmons Albert no record of him
Hadden George Hamilton no record of him
David Erwin no record of him
Morrison Edward no record of him
Morrison Thomas no record of him
Martin Robert James no record of him but 3 of Martin Robert in Jarrow
Parr James no record of him
Parr John no record of him
Quin Samuel no record of him
Bratty David no record of him

I'm afraid I'm with Des on this one.

The number who were supposed to have signed the Ulster Covenant was never challenged at the time - or since to my knowledge. The Liberals had a vested interest in 'rubbishing' the document at the time and never did so. Asquith simply maintained, and quite rightly, that even if every Ulster Unionist was against Home Rule for Ireland, the Nationalists who wanted Home Rule outnumbered them by far. In a democracy ....

Regards
Carninyj

I am delighted to have prompted you to study local history so closely. I have now answer for your claims about the 65. Perhaps someone else will now contact the PRONI and tell them that they should delete a section of the Ulstr Covenant beause you consider it a fake.

I am sure a number of members of this forum will be able to vouch for the authenticity of the document.

It was you who required census proof



Then you wrote



2 years before the signing?
Did they parachute them in a few months before?

Now you prove to me just one of them 65 names even passed through Jarrow

And you can multiply it for every constituency in Britain.........

I cannot prove none of this but some newspaper might..........

Make interesting reading don't you think.......

Anyhow my Irish great grandfather said when he found out his only 2 sons who were both born in Jarrow had accepted the Kings shilling..........

"No respected Irishman would wear the khaki"

But they did and few months later early 1915 they were both among the dead at Ypres.

And aint it ironic five years later there was republicans fighting the british in Ireland and both sides had the same uniform......"The khaki"

No Jarrow Man or Woman ever signed the Ulster Covenant as far as I'm concerned.
Either Catholic or Protestant or any other religion for that matter......

Unless someone can prove otherwise................

I have not said that the Ulster Covenant is a false document..........
But the information that has been supplied in that document has been found wanting.........

Surely there is someone on here can prove that one of those 37 men or 28 women who signed the Ulster Convention supposedly from Jarrow.
Ever lived in Jarrow.
Ever was born in Jarrow.
There Great Granny was born in Jarrow
Or even knew someone from Jarrow.
Surely thats not much to ask.
These 65 people, did they ever exist?
If no one can prove even this? maybe we want to question all of these so called documents from the PRONI.

You should complain! I checked Northamptonshire, and its 62 signatories all put pen to paper in Aldershot, which is in Hampshire.

Could the probem be the lack of explanatory notes outlining the collection methods used to gather the signatures?

I have had cause to thank Des before for this link, which helped my locate a man who was wounded in the war, and do not doubt its accuracy.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...7486&hl=busteed




You have, as the former would be a consequence of the latter.

Ok i'll re-word it then....

The information contained in the Ulster Covenant is flawed.

Felling has always been in the constituency of Gateshead

The addresses of the 65 in the document are in Felling not Jarrow.................

But Felling is just a few miles down the road from Jarrow.

Just for the record, never mind which constituency, what were the official postal addresses at that time?

Because if all you are arguing about is what could amount to a recording error and the 65 really were living in Felling, then the rest of it hardly matters.

By the way, Jimmy, whatever might have been the sentiment of people seven years later, only a small minority of Irish people in 1914 were actively pro-republican and the Irish infantry regiments did manage to put 18 regular and 46 service battalions in the field, by no means all Ulster protestants. So, somebody must have joined up!

Des: given that personation was a well-established and widespread (mal)practice in Northern Irish politics, then perhaps Jimmy has a point here.

Incidentally, as I am sure you know, only six per cent of the Tyneside Irish were first-generation Irish. A high proportion were not even from Tyneside.

As someone who was born and brought up just across the river from Jarrow, in Wallsend, I cannot remember a large, well-established NI community there.

Hedley - fully accept what you are saying. As I pointed out, they were more likely to be 'economic migrants' than any kind of established community, given the kind of skills required by industrial cities such as Belfast and Newcastle etc.
All I can say is that I have found the covenant website an exceptional research tool. I have no other axe to grind.
I have sent a query e-mail to the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland.
Kate has kindly given one illustration of how the site can be used to add info on any given soldier with potential links to 'one side' in Ireland ... on several occasions it has turned up trumps for members and the one-off posters seeking family history info.
Without getting into a ruckus ... can I point out that the Jarrow connection was not raised by me. I merely asked at the start why so many men from the broad Newcastle/Durham area ended up in 11th R. Innis. Fus.
That question was answered by yourself amongst several others.
For the record, I still maintain it would be a pretty pointless exercise to make up 65 names for the Covenant given:- 1. They already had plenty of names and 2. As CarninyJ rightly pointed out, the British Government at the time were of the opinion that the unionists were totally 'out-voted' on an All-Ireland basis, and therefore the Liberals held the moral high ground on the topic despite all the roarings of the Conservatives and the 'Imperialists' who feared the 'loss' of Ireland would be prelude to break up of Empire.

Personally, I would take a flying guess at these men being from an Ulster Unionist background working in the city with maybe a smattering of second generation people thrown in for good measure. As for householders data - I cannot argue - perhaps they were in lodgings?

I can't say fairer than that. I make no claims whatsoever of any significant level of support for the Pro-Union cause amongst the Newcastle public in 1912 ... all common sense would tell me they were far more concerned with their bread and butter issues.
Des

Felling



So it hardly matters?
Maybe to you it hadly matters.
But to people in Jarrow it does as it is not the truth.



In Ireland 1914 the catholics outnumbered the protestants by three to one so its obvious the catholics made up the bulk of the Irish regiments

Where in any posting on this thread have I mentioned that catholics did not join up.
The catholics in 1914 were British so when War broke out they joined up to fight for Britain.
I am quite capable of making my own debate without you fabricating one up for me.............

Jimmy,
I don't want to get into any Unionst/Nationalist arguement, but noticed you have listed Felling as polling/voting district of Gateshead or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? I have a copy of the Gateshead Absent Voters List for 1918 and unless Felling was shifted it isn't one of it's polling districts.

The Parliamentery Borough of Gateshead Polling Districts were;-
A - Barn Close; B - Greenesfield; C - Oakwellgate; D - South Shore; E - Redheugh
F - Teams; G - Prince Consort; H - Claremont; J - Chandless; K - Argyle
L -Shipcote; M - Enfield; N - Bensham; O - Cotfield; P - Claxton; Q - Mount Pleasant; R - Low Fell; S - Sheriff Hill; T - Wrekenton; U - Saltwell.

Now I did go through the AVL for your area and I'm certain that both High and Low Felling were part of the Jarrow Constituency. I have an 1893 map of Durham which shows the Voting areas of the County and it's population at the time, which I'll post once scanned. I've e.mailed Durham CRO to give me a list of the Polling Districts in your area for 1910 & 1918 in case there was a shift.

Again in July 1856 when Newcastle & Gateshead Orangemen tried to march through Felling to meet others of another Lodge a major riot took place. The other Lodge isn't mentioned, but even in the late 1960's/70's I remember a strong Orange presence in the Houghton-Le-Spring and Hetton-Le-Hole areas.

Have you looked in the local newspapers to see exactly how many Lodges existed in Northumberland and Durham at the time?

As I said earlier I don't want to argue, as you're politics is your own affair.

Graham.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

As promised Jarrow Constituency as it was in 1893 and the population at the time. Both Felling and Heworth fall into the area.

Graham.

Right That's a map of 1893 and I take what you have shown as legitimate I cannot question it?

Mind Jarrow constituency 4 times the size of South shields in 1893?

Only one problem with that though the Ulster Covenant was signed in 1912 which was 19 years after your constituency map on here.

Surely if you can find a constituency map for 1893 for Jarrow you can find a similar map nearer 1912?

As other writers have discredited on here the 1901 census for the 65 names as being 11 years to early (none of the 65 found to be living in Jarrow).
Or the 1910 householders list for Jarrow as being 2 years to early
(none of the 65 found to be living in Jarrow)
What does your map prove?

Jimmy,
So I take it that for one year only i.e. 1912 Felling was removed from the Jarrow Constituency to suite peoples political purposes and then placed back into the Constituency for it to re-appear in the 1918 AVL.

Therefore if Durham C.R.O. produce and e.mail me Jarrow's polling districts for 1910 and 1918, or perhaps any polling district list's of the Jarrow Constituency from 1893 through to 1918 they would be falsified or rubbish??

So is it your intention to write to County Hall and correct them on this grave error or are you going to go to print to re-write the political history of the County?

I'm not interested in your politics or the names, I just would like to know where you place Felling as a Polling District.

Graham.

Most people in Jarrow probably could not care less. My point is not whether these 65 lived in the Jarrow constituency or the Jarrow urban area, but whether they lived in the county. The only relevant point, in the context of men from your area who joined the Skins is whether it shows that there was some body of men who might join them out of loyalty or existing affinity.



You didn't, but the remarks attributed to your Irish grandfather - which I accept as totally true, of course - cannot, in my opinion, be generalised into an overall republican sentiment in 1914. I persoanlly believe that the executions after the 1916 uprising had a major impact on Irish opinion, but that in 1914 such republican sentiment was possibly at a low ebb,



Debate? Jimmy, when did you ever debate? You argue, usually in quite a nasty way. I am sure you are a kind, warm human being, so why not show us something of that side of your personality.

Finally, constituency boundary maps are only likely to have been changed when the boundaries changed. There probably was not a definitive map dated 1914.

Jimmy,
Have been informed by J.Gill, Durham County Archivist, that both Felling and Jarrow Polling Districts can be found in the Jarrow Parliamentary Division for both 1910 and 1918.

Right then, who's telling the truth then, them or you regarding this matter of Felling Polling District? If you have a source to show that it's incorrect I would get onto Durham C.R.O. and tell them they've got their boundaries wrong and have done so since at least 1893.

Graham.

Well Graham I take my hat off to you.
You have proved to me that Felling was once in the Jarrow constituency
"Well yi bugga man yi live and learn"
And i'm man enough to take Umbrance here (humble pie as we call it)
Good stuff Graham at least you been doing a bit research.

This is what good debates all about

Ok then in 1912 Felling was in the Jarrow constituency
And 65 people from the Jarrow constituency signed the Ulster Covenant

Important point here is the 65 where from Felling in the Jarrow Constituency

Not the 65 where from "JARROW"

I'm going away from this with a bit of knowledge that I never knew about (before I seen this thread I had never heard of the Ulster Covenant)
So thank you Desmond for inadvertantly fetching this to my attention
"65 people from Felling in the Jarrow Constituency signed the Ulster Covenant"
And you mainly Graham for reseaching it instead of just slagging off.

And "no" I'm not going to crawl under the bed in shame....cos it's water off a ducks back as far as I'm concered.............

Good stuff Graham........ Bonny Lad

PERSONAL INSULTS REMOVED

Researching it, instead of slagging off.

Aye, bonny lad. Ain't that just a canny idea!

All's fair in love an war pet...........

So, as a matter of interest, do you love the Forum, or have you declared war on it?

Ah jist lurve you pet but yi patter stinks

Geordie slang

Patter = craik, chat, small talk

each to his own.

...and in a funny way, I love you too meduck (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'pet')

Shud that not be me drake (that's Northamptonshire-speak for 'bonny lad')

Two male friends of mine from Bath were having a pint in a pub in Wales and exchanged the standard compliment of "Churs me dear". Didn't half get them some funny looks.

I am sure Kate will tell you that meduck you are and meduck you must stay.

I am simply glad that you have now become aware of the Ulster Covenant James. Perhaps, as you say, this thread has made many people aware of its existence as a research tool.
I did not have the opportunity to read any of your posts which have been moderated so extensively so I am unable to comment further.
Throughout your posts, as I perceived them, you did your best to portray me as a liar, a fraud and a bigot. That's my perception.
I will be judged on this forum by the way I conduct myself.

I have just received an e-mail from PRONI on this subject. It reads:-
Des,

We haven't ever heard of widespread falsification of Covenant signatures. However, this is one for historians of the period or those with a special interest, there may be a research project here!
Yours sincerely

Heather Stanley

Access to Information Unit

028 90 255891

Was that your perception
liar?
fraud?
bigot?
I never called you any off that?
Your names not Ulster Convention is it?
I thought I was calling it not you
Well i'll be blowed
I'll see you in court.......

But if I don't turn up start without me.........

Oh one last thing watch my lips bonny lad....

"There where 65 signatories to the Ulster Convention in 1912 from Felling in the constituency of Jarrow"

not

"There where 65 signatories to the Ulster Convention in 1912 from Jarrow"

As a matter of interest my Great Grandfather's name IS on the Covenant!
Also - observe that it was not I who raised the subject. Your issue is with someone else.
Have a nice one.

My issue has never been with you but the Ulster Convenant it just happened that you were the last one to utter "65 names from Jarrow" that I took the quote from....
You have a nice one Bonny Lad

Nice bit of history, Des. Thanks for posting.
Marina