Baker's Pals may be interested in the following story which appeared in the Australian newspaper today about a mass grave near Fromelles.
The link will take you to the report of it on the Anzac Research forum.

http://com2.akheva.com/banzacresearch.fmainchat.t50

I find it strange that neither the french Police or the CWGC are interested in investigating this matter further. I would have thought that a police investigation would be mandatory upon discovery of human remains if only to exclude criminal activity. I would also have thought that the Australian Army would have a department who would have to investigate a formal report of the posible remains of Australian soldiers. Imagine how rapidly they would respond if such a discovery were made on a WW2 battlefield or in Vietnam.

I also find it strange but more from the point of view that the Aussie government does not want to establish the truth of the claim and also to possibly identify the dead held within?

Is this a common occurrance with other nations. This is an area i am not too familiar with but i got the impression from posting on this forum that it was practice for the bodies to be dug up and if poss identified and then given correct burial.

If there lies under this area 250 soldiers would this constitute one of the largest 'graves' found in recent years

Arm.

Interesting article, and if right it would be an outrage if the UK or Australian Governments did nothing, or will it take unpaid, local volunteers to do the 'digging' before something is done to confirm if there are men buried there, who deserve a fitting burial in a war cemetery even if they remain unknown Australian's. I wonder if Paul (Reed) can assist with any further info on this?

This appears to be another example of CWGC being castigated by people not understand their role in life - or rather wishing that it was something other than it is.

Firstly, if these remains exsist (still not yet proven), they will be the responsibility of the local police. CWGC will become responsible only when they are turned over to them after police investigation and them having proved that they are Commonwealth military.

The casualties concerned will already be commemorated by CWGC by name on memorials to the missing.

If the bodies are cleared from the field they would be buried by CWGC in an appropriate place. There would be no question of them raising a special memorial to the men as that would contravene their rule of only one commemoration per man.

If the bodies remain in the field (again, if they are there), CWGC would possibly erect a memorial block to x number of unknowns in a nearby cemetery.

It is correct that CWGC's Charter does not give them the authority to search for remains and they do not do so. Also, a lot will depend on the landowner's attitude.

I suggest that we await the outcome of any investigation to see if these remains actually are in this field before talking about memorials. Anyone seen anything in the UK press/TV?

As far as the experiences I had when I was with the Diggers I can only agree with Terry.
In the evantuality of exhumation it is not even CWGC which is responsable for possible identification but the Ministry of Defence.

Jacky

Must confess I have been contacted by the people involved in this, and personally I am not convinced by the 'evidence' they have - which so far they have been unable to show me in great detail. It all revolves around a German account, apparently.

What I hear is that the local French archaeology group (ASBF) are not that interested in being involved - which perhaps speaks volumes?

What also strikes me as odd with the press report cited on this other forum is that if bones were found, why weren't CWGC and the Police contacted immediately? When bones are found, it is the LAW that they must be reported immediately, and as Martial de le Barre, quoted in this report, works for CWGC, then I am highly surprised he has done nothing about it.

When bones are found, and identified as WW1 soldiers, CWGC are duty bound to come out and investigate - perhaps Terry will confirm this? It is certainly my experience.

Very strange, if it is true.

I agree with Paul - there is something a little irregular in this. This kind of news item also snowballs to an extent. I'm already receiving reports that the remains of 250 soldiers have been found, when no-one really knows how many there are. Indeed, the report which Andrew P drew our attentions to starts with the number 250 being put forward as a statement of fact in the opening sentence, even though the subsequent article explains that this is just a guess. We need to wait and see for a while.

Tom

Paul

It is only the police who have a duty to investigate the discovery of remains.

However, if these are identified as being military and not being caused by foul play (wars are not foul play!), the police and any other interested authority invariably call in CWGC (or similar organisation for non-Commonwealth remains) to take over responsibility. It is at this point that the Commission's role begins - identification if possible and proper burial and commemoration.

Commemoration will be in the form of an 'Unknown' or a named CWGC headstone as appropriate. In the former case the casualty's name will already be on a memorial and in the second (all too rare nowadays) his name will be removed from the memorial to the missing in due course as it has been replaced by the headstone.

In reality, in F&F, this is a common occurance and CWGC are usually informed straight away of any discoveries.

Somehow, I think this story is not all it seems. I would have expected it to have been all over UK TV and the tabloids - especially in the summer 'no news' season.

The latest comment I have seen is here.


Air Vice Marshal Gary Beck, from the Office of Australian War Graves, is quoted as saying, "There is absolutely no evidence that there are 250 missing war dead at this site."

Looks like we'll have to "wait and see" a bit longer.

Tom

I agree,

as an ex Aussie soldier I think there should be some firm discovery before you go digging up half of France to find these blokes.

If these guys think they found the missing then they should contact the Police and go threw the same as evey body else.

But this whole thing so far has a funny smell to it. And I am not talking dead bodies.

S.B

I think the whole matter warrants further investigation to either find that there are remains buried at that spot or that the whole thing is a furphy.
I'm surprised Air Marshall Beck made those comments about lack of evidence as the people who brought this whole matter up obviously think they have enough evidence to proceed.

Though if nothing is done about this the reports & rumours will continue to circulate, probably to the detriment of the OAWG & CWGC

Regards
Andrew

I don't see why, when this has nothing to do with the direct nature of their work. They are not a Graves Registration Unit, as still exisits in the American military, charged with the discovery of servicemans remains world wide.

I live on a battlefield where 8,500 Canadians died in 1916; some 5,000+ are still missing. Do you suggest CWGC come looking for them here?

There's been nothing reported in the local papers.

Paul, no one has suggested going up and digging the entire countryside of France or searching for every missing soldier. In fact looking back over this thread I can't see anyone who suggested that.

The fact is that much of the population(including some of the Press it seems) DO see the CWGC as having such a responsibility even if their role is not defined as such, which is why I made the comment that if there is going to be adverse publicity about this matter it would probably be at the detriment of the CWGC.
I work at an Army Museum and on Sunday we had many people coming in asking if the CWGC & OAWG will investigate the Fromelles matter further. I informed them of the process involved in these matters, but you could see how much interest one press article can generate.
The longer this case at Fromelles continues to gather momentum, with nothing being done, the more press articles begin to appear, and rightly or wrongly who do you think will bear the brunt of not investigating the matter further?

Regards
Andrew

Andrew

Whilst you are undoubtedly right about the possibility of adverse publicity, you are overlooking the fact that CWGC do not have any authority to investigate and cannot do so just because a sector of the public want it. They could only be an important pressure group on the proper legal authorities in France to carry out such an investigation - if there was any evidence that one was required. So far we have no tangible evidence (at least presented on this Forum) to warrant such action.

I am sure if there was tangible evidence, we would see pressure build from several quarters.

Anybody can have a bee in their bonnet about a particular subject and come up with 'evidence' - that does not make it fact or worthy of investigation. So far, there seems to be no general acceptance of any substantive evidence in this case.

This morning I have asked CWGC what they know about this case and what, if any, moves they have made with the French authorities.

I am surprised that people are worrying about this unproven case when the newspapers carried stories over the weekend of a number of Royal Marine Non-World War graves (1929) threatened with eviction from a public cemetery in Greece. A real case of potential dishonour to British servicemen by an ally (again, if the newspaper stories are accurate!).

I have just heard back from CWGC on this one.

They state that the area was fully searched and are highly sceptical that a grave of such magnitude could have been missed by the army.

They also state that if the Australian authorities wish to instigate an investigation with the French authorities and remains are found, they will, of course, become involved and carry out their proper duties.

However, they also point out that no member country of CWGC carries out searches for remains.

Thanks for the update Terry. I guess we just wait and see if anything more happens with this one.

Regards
Andrew

I bashed off an email to the Australian Embassy in Paris. They replied that they were aware of the reports and were keeping a close eye on them and developments. They commented that they would expect to be contacted by the french Police if any remains likely to be Australian were discovered . They were expecting the historian concerned to come up with some harder information but repeated the CWGC's comment that such a large concentration of casualties was unlikely not to have been found during the battlefield clearance programme.

Thanks for the update Terry - it would be interesting if the 'historian' involved in this actually made available the evidence that such a grave is there. Otherwise the whole thing is pure speculation...

Don't you get the feeling that's its more like some Publisity stunt to get attention for his up coming book or to get money to go on some fishing trip in France to dig for their remains?

S.B

Steve

Do you refer to Robin Corfield who was mentioned in the original article, and whose book on Fromelles came out a few years ago?
I was recently informed that he was quite unwell, so I doubt this matter coming up would be a publicity stunt.

If anyone is interested, Corfield's book on Fromelles is very detailed and he has gone to much length to delve into the battle from Australian, British & German perspectives.

Regards
Andrew

But is there any EVIDENCE in it that supports this claim - that is the key issue here? The people involved have so far failed to provide any evidence; it is all speculation.

I also know of Robin Corfield, from friends at the AWM, who all speak highly of him and his work. He is not the source behind this story, so I don't think the claim that it is a publicity stunt for his book holds any water.

Hello All,

I have been following this story with interest since it first appeared in the Australian press about a week ago. I also remain fairly sceptical of details presented thus far, as I believe it highly unlikely that 250 bodies quoted as ‘discovered’ could remain undetected for so long. Surely evidence of that many bodies would have prompted previous attempts at verification.

If by some chance the facts can be proven, it would be unlikely that bodies recovered could be formerly identified on behalf of those Australian families aware that an ancestor was killed on this battlefield. This is not to say that any potential body recovered from this site, irrespective of nationality should not be recognised.

In the case of the Australians soldiers posted as ‘missing’ on the European battlefields they are recognised by name on a number of exiting memorials.

Regards
Geoff S

I also would be interested to hear more of the evidence to substantiate the claims of large numbers of soldiers buried there. I find it more likely that if remains do remain there it would be only a small number and not up in the hundreds, I say that because I would be inclined to think that the IWGC would have known of the graves through surviving soldiers of that battle, post war clear ups/grave searches, and may be military records made (unit war diairies, reports etc). However when you look at the number of remains found in a small area by the 'Diggers' I dont think we can completely discount the possibility at this stage.

Terry, what more do you know of the post war RM graves and the current situation. Are these protected by the MOD?

The graves in Greece date from 1929 and are not in the care of CWGC but of the MoD. They are in a local cemetery - I don't have the article to hand & so cannot quote numbers or the exact location. The Marines died in a gun turret explosion.

The local Greek authorities (according to the newspaper) were claiming £33000 for past maintenance. They claimed that they had looked after the graves not the British.

They seemed to be threatening to remove the bodies and place them elsewhere - a common custom in Greece after a few years of burial.

The MoD denied this and I have to say that the one headstone shown in the paper looked brand new (Post WW2 Non-World War Pattern with clipped corners) and seemed to be made of Bocaccio Limestone like new CWGC stones (I believe CWGC supply these stones to MoD on contract as the style is identical to war grave headstones minus the top corners). This suggests that MoD have recently been active in the cemetery.

CWGC are aware of this situation as, if the bodies have to be moved, they would accept them at their cemetery at Phaleron.

It was probably some local posturing in an attempt to get cash for the cemetery - who knows. Anyway, the MoD is on the case.

Cheers for the interesting reply Terry, I certainly hope the marine's are reinterred in a CWGC cemetery. It would be a more fitting for them to be beside fellow British servicemen in an immaculate CWGC site than in a local churchyard. Never been keen on the idea of isolated graves / small groups of graves in foriegn countries, I feel (unless N.O.K wished otherwise) all war/service graves should have been concentrated into large war cemeteries, anyhow I digress!! Thanks Neil.

Found this on the Times site:

Greece to dig up British graves
By Michael Evans, Defence Editor and John Carr in Athens

A GREEK town has threatened to destroy the remains of 16 British servicemen buried at a cemetery since 1929 unless Britain pays £35,000 for their exhumation and reburial.
The servicemen were Royal Marines and Royal Navy personnel killed after an explosion in the turret of a warship during a military exercise in July 1929.

The 14 Royal Marines and two Royal Navy sailors were buried in a graveyard at Nea Ionia, a hillside suburb of the port of Volos in eastern Greece. Three other Britons were also buried there: a Royal Marine gunner and a leading seaman who died in 1891, and an able seaman killed in 1902.

A memorial stone in honour of the Royal Marines was placed at the cemetery.

According to reports from the Greek town, the Mayor of Volos has threatened to destroy the remains of the servicemen unless Britain pays for their reburial at another site. The municipal council plans to turn the cemetery into a park and has asked relatives of the 5,000 people buried there pay exhumation fees.

Odysseas Karavas, the head of the cemetery, said that letters had been sent to the British Embassy in Athens and the Ministry of Defence in London, demanding payment.He said: “If they don’t reply by the end of August I’m obliged by law to exhume the bodies with a Christian ritual and then throw them out.”

Most burials in Greece — with its rocky terrain, space is at a premium — last for about five years, after which the bones are dug up and placed in ossuaries in the cemetery corner. Foreigners buried according to non-Orthodox rites, however, are generally left to rest in peace.

Defence Ministry sources confirmed that negotiations had reached a sensitive stage. There is a proposal to save the servicemen’s remains which involves the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Normally the Commission is responsible only for the graves of those who died in combat from the two world wars, covering two periods: from 1914 to 1921, and from 1939 to 1947. The additional years take into account those wounded who died later.

But a spokesman for the Commission said that it was able to take responsibility for other cemeteries close to official war graves. The plan was to exhume the remains of the 19 servicemen and rebury them at a Commonwealth war grave at Phaleron, a few miles southeast of Athens.

The MoD said that the 8ft Volos memorial stone would be moved to the Royal Marines museum at Eastney in Hampshire.

At in excess of £2000 per exhumation and reburial, one can only conclude that rampant profiteering is going on. I wonder if local people are being asked for similar amounts of money ?

I just thought I would throw this up, compare the negativity then to the positivity now.

Mick

Makes for interesting reading Mick.

Not that anyone can blame posters for their sceptical viewpoint. At that time, Lambis' evidence was pretty sketchy and his claims seemed pretty fanciful. Just goes to show that if you take the bull by the horns and persist long enough, eventually someone will have to take notice of you.

Now, with the evidence shown to be irrefutable, Lambis is to be commended on his determination.

Cheers,
Tim L.

I agree, from my initial reservation in 2003 I must say well done to all concerned in researching and uncovering this burial site, which has led to such a positive development to recover, seek to identify and re bury the remains in a new CWGC site.

Re the RN graves at Volos, Greece threatened with destruction in 2003 does anyone know if the 19 graves still exist, have the remains been transferred to the CWGC Phaleron cemetery?

Thanks
Neil.

Volos Cemetery last Thursday - all present and correct.
Click to view attachment

Adrian