Who named the Hohenzollern Redoubt, the Germans defending it, or the attacking troops ?

I can imagine that both "Big Willie" and "Little Willie" were British names after Kaiser & son, but wondered about the main position.

Jim

Good question Jim. I think Hohen may be German for mountain, but am not sure about zollern, but mountain tends to indicate an hard to access region. Only a quess.

Hohenzollern is the name of a 'Fürstentum' (principality) in Germany (nowadays in Baden-Württemberg). Hohenzollern was where the family of the German Emperors came from.

Jan

"Hohenzollern" was used for the British AND Germans when refering to this position. The British called the position "Hohenzollern Redoubt", while the Germans referred to it as the "Hohenzollern-Werk".

I thought Hohenzollern was the name of the family that supplied Kings to Prussia from 1701 to 1918 and German Emperors, (ie Kaisers) from 1871 to 1918

In 1871 the King of Prussia decided to use the title Kaiser,ie Deutscher Kaiser. Three successive Kaisers ruled Germany until the fall of the 2nd Reich in November 1918 ending in William 11's abdication and exile in Holland.

I would think that naming a defensive position Hohenzollern,the Germans were merely honouring the German Royal family,most probably the Kaiser.

I don't suppose the British of that era would have named a defensive position Saxe-Coberg-Gotha or even Windsor.Were any defensive systems named Windsor?

Regards

Frank East

I don't know about the Western Front, but there is a substantial defensive system called Windsor Castle in Berkshire.

Thanks for all the informative replies, I guess the Germans may have named it first, and later the British decided to use the same name for the position.

Jim

... the German word for redoubt is "Veste" or "Feste", which means fortified something (castle, fortress etc). So they were called "Feste Schwaben" or this one "Feste Hohenzollern"....

Two things:

the Hohenzollernwerk was a place near La Bassée IIRC, heavily fought over in March 1915 by the 3. Bavarian Infantry Division

the Feste Hohenzollern was not named in honour of the German royal family. It was given its name by soldiers of the XIV. Reservekorps, men from Baden and Württemberg. They gave their positions a lot of names from their region, Hohenzollern being a part of that, just like Schwaben (Schwaben redoubt).

Jan

Slightly off track, either the 9th or 10th Waffen SS Panzer Div's was titled Hohenzollern

Just thought I'd throw that in

Geoff

Jan,That is interesting.

From what you say the Hohenzollern fortress could have been named after the Hohenzollern Castle in Baden and Wurttemburg.

The other observation is were these names given to fortresses by the soldiers communicated officially as such by the German Military?.I would have thought that the German Military would have allocated names for these places from the point of restricted intelligence.Admittedly these names would be eventually become known to the Allies as the stalemate of the Western Front dragged on and battlefield front intelligence developed.

What is the difference between a Feste and a Festung?, the latter seems to be more associated with German defences in World War 2 .

Regards

Frank East

Frank,

no, the redoubt was not named after a castle, but after a region (the castle in Sigmaringen was named after the family, which on its turn was the name of the region).
About naming places etc.: the Germans had the same habit as the British. After a certain time or battle, places were named after places in Germany, after the captors of the area, after commanders who were there or after other things. After a certain time the higher authorities accepted these names because the troops were familiar with them.
Certain places were officially renamed in recognition of certain deeds. F.i. the Bois Quarante was first known as Beilwald (Axe Wood, because of the form), but was officially renamed Bayernwald in January 1915 because bavarian troops had captured it in November 1914. It kept the name throughout the war.

Jan

Frank,
The difference is time: in old German language you used the word "Veste" or later "Feste" to address i.e. a castle. The word Feste is not used anymore in modern German language; today you would say "Festung". However, fortified castles like the famous one in Coburg keep their old name, in this case "Veste Coburg".

Egbert,
Thanks for the explanation,so that's the reason we see Festung used in the Second World War, ie as Festung Europa.

Vielen Dank

Regards

Frank East

Jan - The Hohenzollernwerk/ Redoubt also figured prominently in the Battle for Loos in late Sept 1915. It is located near Fosse 8 more or less left of center between Cite St Elie and Auchy. Andy

Does Hohen mean mountain?I lived in Hohenstaufen one of the prettiest places in Europe in Schwabia, it produced Holy Roman Emperors.

Hi,
The 9th SS panzer Division were called the Hohenstaufen rather than Hohenzollern

Alistair

The Official History describes " the " Hohenzollernwerk" known to the British as 'Hohenzollern Redoubt'". So it seems to have been named by the Germans and the name retained by the British. The Hohenzollern Redoubt was attacked by the Ninth Division on the first day of the Battle of Loos. According to the Official Battles Nomenclature, the Battle of Loos ended 8th October and was followed by the ' Actions of the Hohenzollern Redoubt.' That's about as official as a place name can get in terms of WW1.

Hello Paul

I think it means "high".

The place where it is located is laughingly called Mont de Auchy.

Andy

I think that in this context, hohen means mountain in the same way that mount means mountain in Mountbatten. ( An anglicisation of Battenberg).