The topic speakes for its self. So you think it is safe to bring back World War One Artefacts from the Battlefields, think again? Just read this and tell me if it is right.

Bomb disposal experts have carried out dawn raids on a cache of weapons being stored for sale on the internet.

Mortars, shells, grenades, bullets and machine guns were uncovered just yards from a school and at four other addresses in Worthing.

Superintendent Lance Gray, of Sussex Police, said: "There is so much ammunition and weaponry here it just beggars belief."

Police raided three houses, including one in Norfolk Street, next to Heene First School, Worthing, and two lock-up garages.

The haul, which included a still-active 303 rifle and 3ft long shells, was being offered by military enthusiasts on artefacts web site dugup.co.uk Sussex Police said the raids had been the result of an intelligence operation and advice from customs officials.

Army bomb disposal officers and police firearms experts were sent to the addresses on Monday morning.

Mr Gray said: "It was being sent through the post by these people and, although some of it is not usable, a lot of it is weaponry which you can still buy bullets for today.

"A web site on which they are being sold claims the weapons are inert but officers knew that the types of weapons we were talking about could not be made safe in any way."

At one point during the raids, it was thought some ammunition would have to be blown up in a controlled explosion in nearby Victoria Park but officers said it was likely they would now be destroyed at a police station.

No arrests have been made but police said they would be talking to two military enthusiasts who are believed to help collect weapons from European battlefields and other sources.

Some of the items are transported around military fairs. But some are also offered for sale on www.dugup.co.uk One collector is abroad and is travelling back to Worthing.

Mr Gray said: "It may be that arrests follow in relation to the importation and ownership of all of this.

"We need to speak to both of the men before any of that happens."

The web site claims on its home page: "We dig, we deal, we buy". It offers items such as a First World War smoke grenade for £65.

Cordons were yesterday placed round the raided addresses as bomb disposal experts examined the items.

Mr Gray said there was no suspicion the weapons were linked to terrorists.

A force spokesman said: "Our purpose today has been to investigate whether or not any offences have been committed and to do so by searching in the safest possible way."

I know the Bomb disposal expert well, with 30 years in the job and worked with him many a times and good friend, he is not a happy chappy with what this idoit as done. Go to the link above and look at his site, go into advertures and look at some of his nice pictures. One reads A Search of a flooded crater in High Wood, Somme area France, One he claims is a Navy Shall? How many battleship can you get down the somme river???

I hope he goes down for it. The Bomb Disposal Units have a lot of work to do over here as it is, without idoits like him making things worst.

Terry

Thanks for that. It reinforces what some of us have said before on this site about this subject.

Terry Reeves

The words "complete tosser" quickly spring to mind

John

More contenders for the Darwin awards.

Im sure there was something on the forum about "Dug up" about 2 or three years ago. Anyone remember?

Rgds

Iain

Words fail me. Well nearly.

With all that military experience (!) he didn't appreciate that unexploded ordnance nearly 100 years old might be dangerous?

Must look up the meaning of "common sense" to remind me that it must still exist.

From his website the chap states:

"If only you could imagine being without your family, friends, freedom for such a long time for the sake of a relic, not worth the price in my book.
I am now on police bail until the 15th February 2006, I will be using the time to disband what ever is left of the dugup collection and prepare to say goodbyes to my wife and children if the judge finds me guilty."

Luckily, the light he has apparently been blinded by all of a sudden wasn't one of the relics going up.

Shudder to think what might have happened to somebody buying stuff from him thinking they were buying a harmless relic.

Completely mindless.

I really can't find the energy to add to what everyone else has said!

My first thoughts were much less clean.

What an idiot. With all his experience in the Army, perhaps he missed the courses on detecting live ordanance.

Perhaps the Judge will have looked at the website, seen the Masonic emblem at the bottom, and let him off with a slap on the wrist. Then again it's hard to get a slap on the wrist when both your arms have been blown off.

Definately a candidate for the Darwins!

He was subject to discussion a couple of years ago and had another Ebay dealer name but due to pressues I believe he changed to his latest title. I also seem to remember he was on the forum at one point? He was also heavily involved in another "friend" of the forum the guy from alvbert France who was very abusive at the time!

He was trading not collecting and knew what he was doing.
Tony

I almost feel sorry for him....almost.

The fac t that he appears to have been storing this stuff right next to a school will not go down well with a court I wouldn't have thought.

Cor blimey, Tony.

You're not suggesting that he's cracking on all daft as a brush on his website just as part of his defence.

"Not me, guv. I'm just stupid. Hadnt a clue wot I wuz doing".

John

Lucky he wasn't saying permanent goodbyes to the wife and kiddies if he was storing that lot at home. Quite unrepentant, isn't he?
Marina

Pardon my ignorance, but what does E.O.D. stand for, as in, "We have a qualified E.O.D guy deal with all our finds"?

Tom

Explosive Ordnance Disposal.

Thanks for superfast (less than 2 minutes) reply!

Tom

Right place, right time - coincidence I suppose.
Glad to help.

I pointed this incident out the other week! where is the website outta interest?

Just looking back at this thread and made me think that his EOD man wasn't exactly "on the ball" either.

Do you feel your heart strings going when you read the website!

I am sure the parents of the local school would.


Dave

I think a little custodial sentence might be appropriate here - or at least a stomping great fine to claw back the ill-gotten gains made from items wrenched from battlefields the world over. "Pour discourager les autres"

I'm astonished, really. To quote the original poster, who was himself quoting a senior policeman, "It was being sent through the post by these people and, although some of it is not usable, a lot of it is weaponry which you can still buy bullets for today.

"Some of it is not useable." So presumably some of it is usable and bullets are obtainable. Can they really have been selling live, working guns in this way? What can they have been thinking??

Tom

It appears our friend is not so stupid as the title makes out. What, with his pleading ,asking for character references, solicitors and faux repentance. Nice to know in his Stop Press he feels he really is doing the Western world a service, by showing the loopholes in national security.
Chancer, chancer, dangerous chancer and the word tosser does not do him justice

Cant read this post without saying something, having walked f&f for a few years.

With regard this dugout guy everything has already been said, large Great War unexploded ordinance, brought home via the car and ferry ..... cant be true.

If his website activities had killed someone or atomised his home, what would he have been charged with. No one can be that mindless

Not so long ago on a trip to France we were flooded out, we had a little drink with some locals who warned us of the great amount of shell in the fields, nothing had been collected for sometime, the rain brought it all up to the surface. The story went the districts military clearance team had been blown up by a shell some weeks before, i believe a few were killed, (i think six). A very bad year

Having had my rant i must confess its quite legal in Belgium to own and to handle live Rifles if over sixty years old, must be taken in context i,m talking Great war weapons, to live- fire one would not be good.... but great fun all the same. Useable ammunition is different, I believe even in Flanders its strictly regulated and not permitted. I must say over they’re even the small child knows little things make big bangs...

Tom.....

Tafski. The wheels are in motion, pushed by my good self, to nail that smug little tosser from Albert.

I think the Germans will be talking to him.

Have you looked at the website under cartoons, it would appear that he has been stopped on a number of occasions by customs etc.

Hopefully he will be charged with as many criminal offences as possible, one gun=one charge, one bullet=one charge etc and even if he pleads guilty he should be sent to prison for at least a couple of years.

Although my subject is more WW2 than WW1 I do follow this site as it also interests me..
I cannot believe that these people actually exist!!.. if Id have seen him coming through the tunnel I think I would have had words with absolutely everybody who could listen!!!!!!!!

Rant over.... anybody going to keep us updated from the South as to what happens????

Hope the tw*t never posted anything.
Just what I could do with at work being blown up!

I had an e-mail exchange with this guy a while back about metal detecting and how he organises his searches. He says he always gets local mayoral and landowner permission, hires an EOD expert and that each trip costs around £3000.

My thoughts at the time were, 'Bloody hell, there must be a lot found and sold to cover that'. Yet the website does not seem to justify such an outlay. Perhaps the website only showed a fraction of what was found.

Gunner Bailey

The police apparently found several items with live primers in. What he has been caught with as well are Section 5 Items (under the firearms Act) this is/could be Machine gun parts, Grenade launchers etc. Bearing in mind a Firing Pin or any pressure bearing part (piston) is classed as a Offence, on the other hand a blank can have a live primer in it (it has to have to make a bang) and in itself no offence is committed as anyone can have blanks. It will run its course and we shall see.

The sad passing of Common Sense
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place.
Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim.
Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone.

Martyn

Martyn - I thought this was really funny and enjoyed it and I appreciate that it is not meant to be taken entirely seriously but I have to let the facts get in the way of a laugh by saying that



is incorrect - you can use reasonable force to defend yourself and what is reasonable force is a question for a jury of your peers.

Out of interest I logged on to the website. It is now a very curious mixture of gung-hoery and hand-wringing. His attitude to his finds seems to have changed overnight, strangely enough.
I've never been too keen on ordnance, live or supposedly made safe, particularly since the Head of War Studies at Sandhurst managed to blow himself up with a WWII hand grenade a few years ago

Regrets? I've had a few.

But, then again, too few to mention, etc, etc

John the Politically Correct

I Know who you mean. I bought a fired / dug, type 100 fuse from him. It took him 3 weeks to post it. It was sent in a small cooked meat packet with no padding. The box was so flimsy the fuse fell out in the post office van and was rolling around. It was only the common sense of the postie that reunited the fuse and the box and it was delived to me without bomb disposal being called (the fuse was clearly a fired relic).

This guy uses a variety of addresses. Bray sur Somme, Albert and Paris on e-bay. I would not buy from him again. Once was enough.

Gunner Bailey

Perhaps "incomplete", as in a sandwich short of the full picnic. Perhaps he is the guy who taught Homer Simpson to say "Doh!".

Words utterly fail me. Yes folks I think we have found the favourite contender for this years Darwin's awards.
What a Cretin.

Andy

Yes! Sure is!

Gunner Bailey

"I was digging with my hands and my Swiss Army knife to clear the top layer of coins"

I've not seen this approach on Time Team. Perhaps he could join channel 4 as an advisor?
Out of interest I looked at his journey to Colditz. A drive across Europe to fill the car with random roof tiles and cobblestones. They must have seen him coming. I took my wife there on holiday in 1999 and after stopping to chat to the nice old man doing the renovating he gave me a Players Navy Cut packet he had just found in the roof space - a much nicer way to do business.

It's still reassuring to see that although this forum has approx 10 000 members, many of the battlefield relics on Ebay still go unsold.

It is clear that the mighty $ £ was the only light he could see. So what has the masons got to do with it no point in bringing the craft into it they have nothing to do with it .

Dan

Perhaps he thought it would keep the Police at bay. Living in the past I should think.

Gunner Bailey

No doubt it will never help you if you break the law I dare say he lives in the past funny never heard any one in the crafty craft getting of from breaking da law .

Dan

Dan

Read 'The Brotherhood' by Stephen Knight. It used to happen all the time, from Victorian times through to the 80's. Thankfully not much now. All the judges used to be masons so they saw the signs and either let people off, misdirected jury etc. Police used to turn a blind eye to fellow mason's crimes. The police, especially the CID were almost all masons, especially in the cities. I can remember working with Police in the 80's and probably seeing a couple of masonic references in conversations a week. Some were crude 'Are you on the level?'. As an add on to a statement. As recently as 5 years ago I saw someone trying masonic influence in a computing contract. So commercially it does go on.

As I say, it should be history now and I've not heard of masonic interference with a legal case for 10 years or more, but it was that recent. Different world now. However, go to Queen Street in London and see how busy the Masonic Temple is every afternoon. There's also Masonic meetings in the MOD in London, especially the Navy Offices for some reason. I'm sure some of it is harmless fun...........

Gunner Bailey

Square-and-compass or crossed Swiss Army knives? Without doubting personal experiences as detailed above, the late Stephen Knight's book is something of a problem. Knight was a conspiracy theorist who never let the facts stand in the way of a good axe-grind - his works have been thoroughly discredited not only on the grounds of interpretation but on the creation of spurious evidence.

I wonder if the subject of this thread will be drummed out of the corps.

Graham W. (not one of the Brethren)

Graham

I agree Stephen Knight book has always been a problem to masons. Yes in some places he over emphasised things but in digging out true stories of masonic influence it is a very good book. Some people deny the facts but in many cases they rest in newspaper archives. After all, Roberto Calvi was found hanging between the high and low water marks under Blackfriars Bridge, with bricks in his pockets. Whilst I think most masonic activity is well intentioned (though full of self interest) some aspects have no place in modern society.

Gunner Bailey

Anyway, I didn't join this forum to debate Freemasonry, so will add nothing further on the subject. Back to the trenches.

Gunner Bailey

I have been talking to my friend who is the Bomb Disposal Officer from the job and he thanks everyone for their astute comments on the single most lunatic fool that he has seen in 25 Years of the job. He is a member of this forum but that as people will realise anonymity in the job is advised so he does not openly broadcast it. Oh and for any one in the South East Mr Howe appeared on the BBC's Inside Out on Monday the 9th Jan and was portrayed as the idiot he is. My friend (who actually is an expert) also watched him on TV and his describing a German 77mm Gas Shell as French and being safe because "you can see right down it!" said it all.

I didn't see the programme (hope to soon), but if he said that he was a fool. Gas can still be a severe irritant after 60 years and a shellful could still be lethal if it's been sealed airtight in clay.

Gunner Bailey

But we also tend to be a little hypocritical ourselves! Some of our members salute the work of "de diggers" and others etc. Now, whils't I feel some of their work is worthwhile and important, why do they show such contempt to their ordanance? Many times, I see shells of all makes and calibres, being manhandled about.(Look at the photo's). If a HE shell goes bang, then there aint much you can do! But why handle gas shells, without even a pair of rubber gloves on! Handle that stuff like a new borne, because if "they" leak over you, god help you! Why take the risk? Why is it alright for some, to handle this stuff nontuanately and others, who do the same, to draw disdain?