I watched an interesting program on the Kinmel Park riots (March 4/5 1919) on TV last week. One of those killed in the riots was Pte. David Gillan (877467) of the 85th battalion (Nova Scotia Highlanders). He is buried in Bodelwyddan (St. Margaret) Churchyard.
During the program they showed CWGC headstones for other men who were killed in the riots, but when they were talking about Pte. Gillan the kept returning to a picture of a red/brown stone cross. This cross appears in the centre of the St. Margaret's Cemetery picture provided by the new CWGC web site here.
Does anyone know if the stone cross is Pte. Gillan's headstone or does he have a standard CWGC headstone? Is there a personal inscription on his headstone? Thanks in advance.
Garth
Full Version: Bodelwyddan (St. Margaret) Churchyard
Garth
If one of our knowledgeable and widespread band are unable to help beforehand, I am in North Wales next week, and will probably be able to get to the cemetery for a photo.
Kinmel Park has been mentioned on a thread on ANZAC research v. recently.
I also have a copy of Putkowski's "The Kinmel Park Riots" published in 1989 if you need details.
If one of our knowledgeable and widespread band are unable to help beforehand, I am in North Wales next week, and will probably be able to get to the cemetery for a photo.
Kinmel Park has been mentioned on a thread on ANZAC research v. recently.
I also have a copy of Putkowski's "The Kinmel Park Riots" published in 1989 if you need details.
Hi Richard:
Thank you for your kind offer. If you get a opportunity, would you please take a photo of his headstone for me.
Julian Putkowski was featured on the program. Here's the History Network summery of the program:
Kinmel Park Riots
The riot at Kinmel Park was the most shameful incident in Canadian military history. On the 4th and 5th of March 1919, thousands of Canadian soldiers stationed in North Wales rampaged through their camp. In the pitched battles that followed, five men were killed and 28 wounded. Though the ringleaders were quickly tried and convicted of mutiny, the tragic deaths that occurred went uninvestigated.
The Kinmel Park Riots was a disaster waiting to happen. Thousands of disease-ridden Canadian soldiers, weary from the effects of a bloody war and the bleak Welsh winter, were told no ships were available to repatriate them back to Canada. Disbelief turned to anger when the soldiers discovered that ships earmarked for them were sailing back to America with US soldiers on board.
After weeks of low-level mutiny, this news caused an eruption of violence. Waving red flags and shouting, “Come on the Bolsheviks”, they smashed up the camp, looted canteens, raided bars and attacked their officers.
After a night of disorder, a group of several hundred mutineers, led by Russian-born Sapper William Tarasevich, headed for Camp 20 where a core of ‘loyal’ soldiers were dug in. The events that followed, Tarasevich was bayoneted dead, another died of horrific stab wounds and three others were shot dead. Until now, no attempt has been made to discover who killed them.
One of the dead was Private David Gillan, a ‘loyal’ soldier killed at close range by a bullet wound to the throat. The Welsh coroner who examined his corpse claimed that he was shot by one of his own men. Yet his findings were quickly suppressed.
Three years ago, David Gillan Jr. visited his uncle’s grave in the picturesque village of Bodelwyddan. Attempting to find out how his uncle died, he contacted Julian Putkowski, an expert on the Kinmel Park Riot. Putkowski’s research had uncovered a host of cover-ups, beginning with the coroner’s vital evidence. After more extensive research and information supplied by David Jr., Putkowski now believes he has cast-iron proof that David Gillan was killed by ‘friendly fire’.
In the aftermath of the riots, the authorities’ only concern was to punish the mutineers; the matter of the five deaths was sidelined. Drawing on never before seen evidence, this documentary seeks to prove the identity of the Kinmel Park killers. Its findings will anger Canadian authorities, the military and the families of those implicated in this tragic affair. But, in doing so, it will bring to light the tragic fate of five men who fought for the mother country and were slaughtered because they simply wanted to go home.
Garth
Thank you for your kind offer. If you get a opportunity, would you please take a photo of his headstone for me.
Julian Putkowski was featured on the program. Here's the History Network summery of the program:
Kinmel Park Riots
The riot at Kinmel Park was the most shameful incident in Canadian military history. On the 4th and 5th of March 1919, thousands of Canadian soldiers stationed in North Wales rampaged through their camp. In the pitched battles that followed, five men were killed and 28 wounded. Though the ringleaders were quickly tried and convicted of mutiny, the tragic deaths that occurred went uninvestigated.
The Kinmel Park Riots was a disaster waiting to happen. Thousands of disease-ridden Canadian soldiers, weary from the effects of a bloody war and the bleak Welsh winter, were told no ships were available to repatriate them back to Canada. Disbelief turned to anger when the soldiers discovered that ships earmarked for them were sailing back to America with US soldiers on board.
After weeks of low-level mutiny, this news caused an eruption of violence. Waving red flags and shouting, “Come on the Bolsheviks”, they smashed up the camp, looted canteens, raided bars and attacked their officers.
After a night of disorder, a group of several hundred mutineers, led by Russian-born Sapper William Tarasevich, headed for Camp 20 where a core of ‘loyal’ soldiers were dug in. The events that followed, Tarasevich was bayoneted dead, another died of horrific stab wounds and three others were shot dead. Until now, no attempt has been made to discover who killed them.
One of the dead was Private David Gillan, a ‘loyal’ soldier killed at close range by a bullet wound to the throat. The Welsh coroner who examined his corpse claimed that he was shot by one of his own men. Yet his findings were quickly suppressed.
Three years ago, David Gillan Jr. visited his uncle’s grave in the picturesque village of Bodelwyddan. Attempting to find out how his uncle died, he contacted Julian Putkowski, an expert on the Kinmel Park Riot. Putkowski’s research had uncovered a host of cover-ups, beginning with the coroner’s vital evidence. After more extensive research and information supplied by David Jr., Putkowski now believes he has cast-iron proof that David Gillan was killed by ‘friendly fire’.
In the aftermath of the riots, the authorities’ only concern was to punish the mutineers; the matter of the five deaths was sidelined. Drawing on never before seen evidence, this documentary seeks to prove the identity of the Kinmel Park killers. Its findings will anger Canadian authorities, the military and the families of those implicated in this tragic affair. But, in doing so, it will bring to light the tragic fate of five men who fought for the mother country and were slaughtered because they simply wanted to go home.
Garth
The slide show on the site below doen't answer your question(s) but it may be of interest.
www.worldwidewales.tv/index2.php?mid=128
CWGC Site states: There are over 100 burials of the 1914-1918 war here, in the South East part of the churchyard. Over 80 of the burials are those of Canadian soldiers who died in the repatriation camp at Kinmel Park in 1919, largely from influenza. The Canadian troops erected a memorial Cross of red sandstone, on an inscribed base, in the churchyard.
Gillans grave is shown as being Grave No: 506
www.worldwidewales.tv/index2.php?mid=128
CWGC Site states: There are over 100 burials of the 1914-1918 war here, in the South East part of the churchyard. Over 80 of the burials are those of Canadian soldiers who died in the repatriation camp at Kinmel Park in 1919, largely from influenza. The Canadian troops erected a memorial Cross of red sandstone, on an inscribed base, in the churchyard.
Gillans grave is shown as being Grave No: 506
QUOTE (Greenwoodman @ Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:43:21 +0000)
I also have a copy of Putkowski's "The Kinmel Park Riots" published in 1989 if you need details.
[QUOTE]
JP's book was republished last year and is readily available again.
JP tells the shameful story with his usual compelling frakness
I have received a "Report this Posting" email from Big Dave which relates to this thread.
For the life of me I can't see anything to complain about in this subject or the postings and so can only assume Big Dave clicked on the wrong button.
If you are listening Big Dave, could you post your response again!
For the life of me I can't see anything to complain about in this subject or the postings and so can only assume Big Dave clicked on the wrong button.
If you are listening Big Dave, could you post your response again!
Garth, you'll be glad to know that I mentioned this churchyard visit to the boss. "Where is it?" was the response. About 5 minutes away from where we are staying. "I might come with you to that" said the boss. Oh, joy! 
Dear Terry,
Sory I did press the wrong button!
All I wanted to point out was that Pte Gillan's grave is marked by a private memorial rather than the normal Commission headstone. This is not uncommon as around 1/6th of the war graves in the UK are marked by family or private memorials.
Sory I did press the wrong button!
All I wanted to point out was that Pte Gillan's grave is marked by a private memorial rather than the normal Commission headstone. This is not uncommon as around 1/6th of the war graves in the UK are marked by family or private memorials.
Richard, hope you get an opportunity to visit the churchyard. I'd be interested to know if there are any personal inscriptions on the headstone. Sorry to hear about your boss. 
Does he have any interest in the Great War?
Big Dave, thanks for the update. So, it appears the headstone they kept returning to in the program probably belongs to Pte. Gillan.
Garth
Does he have any interest in the Great War? Big Dave, thanks for the update. So, it appears the headstone they kept returning to in the program probably belongs to Pte. Gillan.
Garth
mordac
I hate to nit pick, but are you sure that David Gillan was with the 85th Battalion? He enlisted with the 185th, which certainly supplied men to the 85th at the front. However, the nominal role of the 85th that I have seen does not mention him. (It does mention a John Gillan who may be a brother).
The only reason that I bring this up is that one of the reasons put forward as to why these riots occurred in depots and camps in the rear, was that the men were not posted to permanent units and did not have the discipline and esprit de corps of the front line units. If many men from front line units were at Kinmel this theory would be called into question.
Just a thought.
I hate to nit pick, but are you sure that David Gillan was with the 85th Battalion? He enlisted with the 185th, which certainly supplied men to the 85th at the front. However, the nominal role of the 85th that I have seen does not mention him. (It does mention a John Gillan who may be a brother).
The only reason that I bring this up is that one of the reasons put forward as to why these riots occurred in depots and camps in the rear, was that the men were not posted to permanent units and did not have the discipline and esprit de corps of the front line units. If many men from front line units were at Kinmel this theory would be called into question.
Just a thought.
Hi James:
You're not nit picking. I received an e-mail with the following information about Pte. Gillan from a forum member. It's from the 85th's history; the entry reads: 877467 Gillan, Pte. David; Address Florence, N.S.; Joined 14.4.18
I think John might have been his brother. Have to admit, I'm not sure about this.
Garth
You're not nit picking. I received an e-mail with the following information about Pte. Gillan from a forum member. It's from the 85th's history; the entry reads: 877467 Gillan, Pte. David; Address Florence, N.S.; Joined 14.4.18
I think John might have been his brother. Have to admit, I'm not sure about this.
Garth
mordac
Right you are! I see it now.
Now all we have to do is find out what an 85th man was doing at Kinmel. Nicholson's official history says that the units of all four divisions went to concentration camps at Bramshott or Witley from where, after processing and two weeks leave, they entrained directly for an embarcation port. Kinmel Park was organized for troops outside the Corps.
Thus it would seem that either the official history is not quite accurate, or Pte. Gillan was not with the 85th at the time, and was a victim of the army bureaucracy.
Every bit of information raises new questions!
Right you are! I see it now.
Now all we have to do is find out what an 85th man was doing at Kinmel. Nicholson's official history says that the units of all four divisions went to concentration camps at Bramshott or Witley from where, after processing and two weeks leave, they entrained directly for an embarcation port. Kinmel Park was organized for troops outside the Corps.
Thus it would seem that either the official history is not quite accurate, or Pte. Gillan was not with the 85th at the time, and was a victim of the army bureaucracy.
Every bit of information raises new questions!
Found this reference to Gillan
http://www.thelondonfreepress.com/CNEWSFea...oldiers-cp.html
It describes his headstone.
http://www.thelondonfreepress.com/CNEWSFea...oldiers-cp.html
It describes his headstone.
Darn! How did I miss this one until now. I live but ten minutes from Bodelwyddan! Mordac do you still want photo's? I've got a digital camera so can e-mail what you want. There's about 80 Canadian graves and I'll be happy to snap as many as you wish. Just send a list of requirements. I too have the Putkowski booklet. Do you want any details from it?
Richard - I presume you've already been? We could have met up.
I still can't believe this one slipped by me......
Richard - I presume you've already been? We could have met up.
I still can't believe this one slipped by me......
QUOTE (Andrew Hesketh @ Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:39:47 +0000)
Mordac do you still want photo's? I've got a digital camera so can e-mail what you want. There's about 80 Canadian graves and I'll be happy to snap as many as you wish. Just send a list of requirements.
Hi Andrew:
Thank you for your kind offer. I'd would appreciate photos of the headstones of the Kinmel five:
Pte. David Gillan (877467)
Gunner William Lyle Haney (1251417)
Gunner John F. Hickman (326914)
Sapper William Tarasevich (1057297)*
Corp. Joseph Young (438680)
Would you also take a shot of the CWGC section of the cemetery and one of St. Margaret Church?
Many thanks!!
Garth
*jhill - James, here's another one of our friends who gives his place of birth as Grodensky gooberni Kobainskago nyder, Russia. His address for next of kin is Motolskoy, Poloste, Russia.
Garth and Andrew
Got the photos, they're in the camera now, and I'll switch them to the PC tomorrow, put some up on the site, and e-mail you the rest Garth. Couldn't get Young - he was taken home to Canada!
Got the photos, they're in the camera now, and I'll switch them to the PC tomorrow, put some up on the site, and e-mail you the rest Garth. Couldn't get Young - he was taken home to Canada!
Garth - will do. In fact if the weather is good (it's been pouring down for the last few days) I'll probably do them tomorrow. I've got another to do for Jim Strawbridge anyway so it will be worth the short trip.
A number of men who died in this area were repatriated to Canada but YOUNG was NOT one of them. He is still there.
His grave number is 504. In between HANEY (503) and TARASEVICH (505)
His grave number is 504. In between HANEY (503) and TARASEVICH (505)
Right as usual Terry. That's what comes from posting late at night and from memory! Gunner John Frederick Hickman was buried at Bodelwyddan on 8th March 1919, and was subsequently exhumed for reinterment in Canada.
It would be interesting to know where he is is buried now. There is perhaps a clue in the fact that he was from New Brunswick.
It would be interesting to know where he is is buried now. There is perhaps a clue in the fact that he was from New Brunswick.
Processing complete - here is Gillan's grave:-
.....the inscription (which reads:- In / proud memory / of / No 877467 Private David Gillan, / aged 22 years. / of Florence, Cape Breton, / Canada. / who was killed at Kinmel Park / on March 5th 1919. / Defending the Honour of his Country
......and the 85th's badge
Richard
HICKMAN is buried in Dorchester Rural Cemetery, New Brunswick, Canada
HICKMAN is buried in Dorchester Rural Cemetery, New Brunswick, Canada
Haney.
Tsarevich.
and Young. I have separate photos of both the official inscription and the personal inscription at the base of the stone, plus church etc. If you can send me your e-mail address through private message, I'll e-mail them off to you. Although you can save them direct from the screen, continual saving of jpeg reduces their clarity (imho). 
Garth,
I made a visit today but I see that Richard has beaten me to it! Anyway, in addition.....
I made a visit today but I see that Richard has beaten me to it! Anyway, in addition.....
..and a more panoramic shot of the plot...
....and Young, Tasarevich and Haney side-by-side. In the previous photo they are the three at the end of the row to the left of the two gents (two Scousers I got talking to who were confused by most of the dates being 1919, so I served a [rare] useful purpose by explaining the post-war problems of repatriating the Canadians, and added to Putkowski's bank balance as the two gents popped into the church to buy a copy of his 'Kinmel Park Camp Riots'!)
...er....the one I forgot to add....
Hi Andrew
If possible could you send me a copy of John Gillan head stone.I`m going to Florence Nova Scotia this Wed.I would love to be able to give a copy to the RCL there.
Cheers
Dave
I`ve been looking through the unit history no mention of the riot.Plus in the unit histroy he is not mention as killed.
If possible could you send me a copy of John Gillan head stone.I`m going to Florence Nova Scotia this Wed.I would love to be able to give a copy to the RCL there.
Cheers
Dave
I`ve been looking through the unit history no mention of the riot.Plus in the unit histroy he is not mention as killed.
Hi Richard and Andrew:
Many thanks to both of you for going to the time and effort to take these photographs for me. The Baker Pals do it again! You guys are fantastic. I've sent you both e-mails thanking you and requesting you e-mail me originals; hope you don't mind.
Andrew, If you're in the area again would you please pick me up a copy of Putkowski's book 'Kinmel Park Camp Riots.' I will of course send you a British pound money order to cover the cost of the book and shipping to Canada. In fact, I'll do it in advance if you know the cost of the book.
Regards,
Garth
BTW, do either of you recall the personal inscription on Joseph Young's headstone?
Many thanks to both of you for going to the time and effort to take these photographs for me. The Baker Pals do it again! You guys are fantastic. I've sent you both e-mails thanking you and requesting you e-mail me originals; hope you don't mind.
Andrew, If you're in the area again would you please pick me up a copy of Putkowski's book 'Kinmel Park Camp Riots.' I will of course send you a British pound money order to cover the cost of the book and shipping to Canada. In fact, I'll do it in advance if you know the cost of the book.
Regards,
Garth
BTW, do either of you recall the personal inscription on Joseph Young's headstone?
QUOTE (Terry Denham @ Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:34:53 +0000)
HICKMAN is buried in Dorchester Rural Cemetery, New Brunswick, Canada
Hi Terry:
Thanks for the heads up the new location of Gunner John Hickman's grave. I've checked the Maple Leaf Legacy Project web site and have found out there are two CWGC graves located in the Dorchester Rural Cemetery and neither headstone is available to view on the Internet yet. I'll keep checking back.
Garth
The personal engraving on Young's headstone is:
'Sometime, Sometime
We'll Understand'
Sums up the whole war if you ask me.
I'll try to get you a copy of the Putkowski book. I'll let you know about costs etc., but I don't think it will be too expensive as it's only 55 pages long. I bought my copy about 3 years ago and I think it was about £6 Sterling.
'Sometime, Sometime
We'll Understand'
Sums up the whole war if you ask me.
I'll try to get you a copy of the Putkowski book. I'll let you know about costs etc., but I don't think it will be too expensive as it's only 55 pages long. I bought my copy about 3 years ago and I think it was about £6 Sterling.
Hi Mordac
I was talking to the historian from 2nd Nova Scotia Highlanders CB.He told me Gillan was attached to 17th CEF when he was kill.Still working on it.
Cheers
Dave
I was talking to the historian from 2nd Nova Scotia Highlanders CB.He told me Gillan was attached to 17th CEF when he was kill.Still working on it.
Cheers
Dave
Is Putkowski`s book The Kinmel park Riots, still in print? Has anyone got a copy they`d like to sell? If so please drop me a line, as I`m keen to learn more about this event.
Gordon,
I got my copy from a little shop inside the church a few years ago. It is available online at:
http://www.bodelwyddan-castle.co.uk/sales.htm
Web sites of interest:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/fact...t5_prog3b.shtml
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimens...r03/05_fd_e.htm
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures0105/02_soldiers-cp.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/049.html
http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/cfli/engra...arch/pdf/43.pdf
I got my copy from a little shop inside the church a few years ago. It is available online at:
http://www.bodelwyddan-castle.co.uk/sales.htm
Web sites of interest:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/fact...t5_prog3b.shtml
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimens...r03/05_fd_e.htm
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures0105/02_soldiers-cp.html
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/44/049.html
http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/cfli/engra...arch/pdf/43.pdf
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