I have long been thinking about this but yesterday's tv doc on Facism and Football has reminded me. Does anyone have a definitive list or any sort of list of professional footballers that died/kia during service in WW1?

I know several projects have been done on cricketers and feel sure someone would have compiled a footballers/sportsmen list.

Can anyone help?

In this article, "Celtic Football Club and the Great War"," Robert Hoskins mentions the following who died in the war and who all played for Celtic. Patrick Slavin, Leigh Roose, Donnie McLeod, Archie McMillan, Robert Craig, John McLaughlin and Peter Johnstone.

And in this article, "Third Lanark Rifle Volunteers Football Club" Ian Livingstone refers to J. Y. Turnbull, VC, and John Ferguson.

Scottish players who died seem very well represented on the web. This Website gives details of players from the Hearts of Midlothian FC who died in the war.

Not every footballer by any means, but I hope it's a start.


Tom

How about Lt Donald "Donny" Bell, VC of the Green Howards....

Yes of course, and there was also Walter Tull, who has already been mentioned on the forum.

Tom

...and Sandy Turnbull of Manchester United...

Dave.

The impressive clock Memorial at Haymarket, Edinburgh is dedicated to the Heart of Midlothian players. I read somewhere that only four played again, not necessarily for Hearts.
There must have been similar groups for Manchester, Chelsea, Arsenal etc, but Hearts were the only first team to enlist en bloc as a unit. Lochnagar Crater had a wreath from Hearts among the many laying there this July.
Aye
Malcolm

CWGC has a little about footballers on its sportsmen and sportswomen information sheet.

I'm actually right in the middle of researching James Hay, who survived the war after serving in France with RGA. He played for Ayr, Celtic, Newcastle and got 11 caps for Scotland prior to the war.

As far as I know, Turnbull (surprisingly)was the only Manchester United (I don't know about Manchester C**y) player to have died in the war (1917), although several others never played again.

Dave.

What has always surprised me is that the FA cup was still played in 1915 - or were professional players exempt from joining up at this stage?

I'll not rise to Croonaert's bait, here.

But will offer John "Cobbler" Hodgkinson who played semi-pro for Stockport County, Grimsby and Nelson.

KIA on 5/6/15 whilst serving with 1/5th East Lancs and remembered on the Cheadle war memorial.

John (Blue Moon) Hartley

Thanks PALS, please keep the names coming.

It is odd that it is always Walter Tull who is mentioned in connection with Northampton Town FC - indeed when they unveiled a memorial a year or two ago it was to Tull alone, conveniently and disrespectfully ignoring other figures from the club's history. Tull played far more games for Tottenham Hotspur than Northampton.

It says something about the glamour of other people such as poets and pilots (eg Mannock with Wellingborough links and commemoration) that another local hero and Northampton Town player, Lt. Col Bernard Vann, VC (and various other decorations, MIDs and something like 14 wounds) also of Wellingborough remains without proper commemoration in his home town. Vann was killed during the last 100 days. He had enlisted as a private in 1914 and made a prominent surge up the ranks during the war.

A campaign is getting underway to try and ensure he is appropriately recognised in his home town.

Martin

Strange co-incidence.
The Edinburgh Evening News tonight has an article.

A Hearts Felt Memorial
A fundraising lunch at Tynecastle on Sunday, November 16th, will help establish a memorial to the Hearts players, among the first to answer the call to arms, who served at the Somme. Seven died there. It's planned to erect it near the First World War battlefield.
Guest speakers at the lunch will be Bob Crampsey, John Gaughan, Willie Lyall and Jack Alexander who has written a book on the Royal Scots involved in the battle. Tickets from Shelley at 0131 200 7299

Must locate Alexander's book.
Aye
Malcolm

Teapots

I don't think footballers were exempt.

In the Manchester United museum (my son dragged me there!) they have/had a wall on which every player who has been in the team since the year dot is listed. When it comes to the WW1 period there is a note saying that they no longer have a record of all the players as they were found weekly on an 'ad hoc' basis from all over the place - the 'professionals' all being away in the forces (or words to that effect).

Teapots - What you need to remember is that both the league season & the FA Cup commenced August/September 1914 when it was still very much a case of 'business as usual'. I suppose that the footballing powers that be decided it was better to finish the league & cup fixtures rather than cancel them part way thru the season which is why football continued until May 1915. I think that the 1915 FA Cup final was nicknamed 'The Kharki Cup Final' due to the amount of soldiers in the crowd.

Will

According to my copy of 'The Aston Villa Story' by Ian Johnson, the FA Cup and Football League were officially suspended 'for the duration' in August 1915. The Villa, who had been one of the dominant pre-war teams, had a bad 1914-15 season, being knocked out in the second round of the cup by Man City (bet that cheered you up John) and finishing 13th in the League. Although many Villans served in the war, they seem to have got off lightly. The book records only Arthur Hobson and Tommy Barber as among the dead. Tommy Barber, a powerful wing-half, is I believe the Private in 2/4th Ox and Bucks killed on 16th August 1917 whose name is recorded on the Tyne Cot Memorial. I have so far not been able to identify the correct Arthur Hobson from 11 possibles on the CWGC and SDGW databases. Further research is required. With most of the experienced players returning safely from the war, there were apparently high hopes that the glory days would continue. Admission prices at Villa Park went up from a tanner to a shilling! The club had a record sixth FA Cup triumph in 1920.

Mark is quite right about the suspension of the Football League in 1915. The "Kahki" cup final in 1915 took place between Chelsea and Sheffield United, Sheffield winning 3-0.

Professional footballers were not exempt military service. I would be interested to know however, about a story that West Bromwich Albion had formed a company of infantry along with some of its supporters. Truth of myth?

Terry Reeves

(Long suffering Coventry City FC supporter}

Tommy Fiske 8th Border Regiment. Blackpool Goalie. KIA 27th May 1918


http://www.fiske.clara.net/Tommy.htm

Tommy Fiske played in the 'Khaki' Cup Final of 1915:

'On 9th January 1915 Tommy kept goal for Forest in their Cup Final match against his old team Norwich, but Forest lost 1-4. He returned to the Front in 1916 and was wounded. He spent a recovery period in a Southampton hospital before rejoining the 1st Norfolk Regiment with the British Expeditionary Force in France. On 20th September 1917 he was posted to 8th Battalion and promoted to Sergeant.'

I can see a very long research project forming here, altough I should finish the current one first. It will mean hours spent at the PRO/NA or thumbing* through contemporary local newspapers. Such is life!!

* more like sitting in front of fische

Thanks to all who have responded.

Mark

A mate of mine from work is a relative of Sam Hardy, who he says played for Villa and then joined the RN during WW1. We looked him up at the PRO and found that he was possibly a Steward. Is there anything in your book about him ?

Michael

Michael-Goalkeeper Sam Hardy did indeed serve in the Royal Navy. He played 183 games for Villa and was in the FA Cup winning teams of 1913 and 1920. I have a fuller bio of him if you want.
The mystery of Tommy Barber, who headed the winning goal against Sunderland in the 1913 Cup Final continues. Although 2 Villa histories record that he died in the war, a more recent one 'Villa Park Encyclopaedia' by Dean Hayes maintains that he survived service in the 'Footballers' Battalion' only to die of TB in Nuneaton in 1925 aged 39. What was the Footballers' Battalion?

There were two (and this is not including the Sportsmen's Battalion)...

17th (Service) Battalion (1st Football), the Middlesex Regiment
Formed in London on 12 December 1914, by Rt-Hon. W. Joynson Hicks, MP. July 1915 : attached to 100th Brigade, 33rd Division. 8 December 1915 : transferred to 6th Brigade, 2nd Division. 10 February 1918 : disbanded in Belgium.

23rd (Service) Battalion (2nd Football), the Middlesex Regiment
Formed in London on 29 June 1915, by Rt-Hon. W. Joynson Hicks, MP. November 1915 : attached to 123rd Brigade, 41st Division.

And how about this one...

14th (Service) Battalion (Swansea), the Welsh Regiment.
Formed at Swansea, October 1914, by the Mayor and Corporation and the Swansea Football and Cricket Club. November 1914 : attached to 129th Brigade, 43rd Division. 28 April 1915 : formation became the 114th Brigade, 38th Division.

Chris-I'll try to find out which one Barber served in. Michael-I have unearthed a photo of Sam Hardy which I shall post anon.

Here is a photo of the Aston Villa 1920 FA Cup-winning team. Most of the players had of course returned in the previous year from wartime service. The imposing figure of Sam Hardy can be seen on the back row looming over the chairman's left shoulder. Perhaps he was placed there to ensure that the cup wasn't pinched while in Villa's possession, as it had been in 1895!

Mark

That fantastic, thanks a lot mate. If you've got a bio I'd very much appreciate a copy. My oppo took a copy of his service record at the PRO, do you want a copy?

Michael

I think the Villa player kneeling second left is Frank Barson, who once scored with a 30-yard header, and was a real tough nut.

Well spotted Chris-2nd left is Frank Barson, born in Sheffield. A hard nut indeed-he was rumoured to have once pulled a gun on the Villa manager and was the most suspended player of the era. He played one game for England. Don't know about his military service, if any. His 30-yd effort is supposedly the second longest header ever scored. The furthest was also by a Villan-Peter Aldis in 1952. (That's enough Villa trivia-Ed.)

If there are any Hull City fans out there (a very long shot I know) can you give me a first name for 'Davies', the goalkeeper? He's on my list of Tibshelf, Derbyshire men who survived the war - and with just the surname to go on I'm not going to get very far!

Interestingly, if you check out Item No. 2194258900 on ebay at the moment,
you'll find this. It's currently 50p, no bids ( and NO, it's not mine!!)
The players are as follows
BASE M.T. FOOTBALL TEAM. SALONIKA GREECE.. DEC.2ND 1917. PLAYERS. TOP ROW. J JACKSON[CHESTERFIELD] T .WILSON [QPR] J. HICHMAN[ EAST HAM]. T.D.CAMPBELL[ WOOLWICH ARSENAL &CHELMSFORD.] G. STEVENSON.BOTTOM ROW. RAKESTRAW. [BLACKBURN ROVERS] J.HOUGHTON .[NORWICH CITY]. CAPTAIN. SYMONS.[ PLYMOUTH ARGLE] .G.E.TRAVERS. BARNSLEY &MANCHESTER UTD].BRADSHAW .[BURNLEY] D.TAYLOR.
Don't know who survived and who didn't as this is a game for women and children!!

Hussar this ebay lot isnt an original but a copy. The names are mostly too common to make a CWGC look up but I found a J. Hickman ASC died in 1918 at home and buried at Brockley ... not quite East Ham but very close as the crow flies. Hickman was the goalkeeper and presumably an amateur with East Ham.

I will ignore yr last remark as it is a well known fact that footballers have to be finely tuned athletes comparable in car terms to a Lotus Elan, whereas rugby (??)players are more yr Ford Granada model.

Signals,
Was it not a Lotus Elan, or some similar sort of sleek,fast car, that that complete t****r Will Carling beat in a race for comic relief or children in need??

It was comic relief

Hull City players who died whilst in the armed forces during WW1


LAVERY, Patrick
b. 1884, Northumberland d.25.09.1915
July 1905 to August 1906
League: 2 app 0 goals; FAC: 1 app 0 goals

LYON, Samuel
b. 20.11.1890, Prescot d.1916
December 1912 to June 1914
League: 6 app 1 goal

MORGAN, Douglas
b. 1890, Inverkeithing d. 01.01.1917
May 1913 to September 1915
League: 52 app 0 goals; FAC: 6 app 0 goals

TAYLOR, John ‘Jock’
b. 1886, Elgin d.15.09.1916
August 1907 to July 1909
LGE: 9 app 3 goals

I am attempting to post a clipping from the Edmonton Daily Bulletin of (I believe) 12-Nov-17 on this subject. If it does not work I will be back in a moment to appologize.

BRISTOL CITY FC

TOMMY WARE - Goalkeeper - local lad made his Div.2 debut in 1911 and made the last of 58 appearances on 25 April 1914 in a 1-0 defeat at Fulham - KIA June 1915.

EDWIN BURTON - Forward - joined the club from Shildon Athletic in 1913. Made the last of 19 appearances (scoring 7 goals) on 24 April 1915 in a 1-1 draw at Birimingham City. KIA August 1916.

A.EDWARDS - Half Back- previously with Aston Villa and Newport County. Joined the club in 1912 making the last of only 4 appearances on 26 April 1913 in a 5-1 defeat at Bury. KIA 1918.

City finished 16th, 8th, and 13th in Division 2 in seasons 1912-13, 1913-14 and 1914-15.

The official history of Newcastle United contains a photo of the 1914 team and states that three of them died in the Great War. They were Thomas Goodwill, Dan Dungilson and Tom Hughes. Goodwill and Dungilson both joined the 16th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers (Newcastle Commercials); both were killed on 1/7/16 in the attack on Thiepval. Their bodies, if recovered, were never identified and they are commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Hughes is harder to trace in the CWGC database, but there was a casualty of that name in the 27th NF (Tyneside Irish) KIA 1/7/16. This means that it is certain that two Magpies were killed on the first day on the Somme, and possibly three; and all in fairly close geographic proximity.

Two other former Magpies were killed during the War. Captain Tom Rowlandson MC, Yorkshire Regiment, was KIA on 15/9/16 and is buried in Becourt Military Cemetery in the Somme. He was an amateur who played in goal for the Mags, Corinthians and England.

The club history names a fifth player, Major John Fleming, East Yorks Regiment as KIA in 1917, but I cannot find him anywhere in the CWGC database. He played for NUFC between 1911-13 and afterwards for Spurs.

In addition NUFC lost three reserve players KIA; and two more in the flu' epidemic which followed the war.

And then there is D.S. Bell VC. It is uncertain if he actually played for Newcastle, but it is beyond doubt that he was on their books, making Newcastle the only current Premier League team who can claim a connection with this remarkable man. Curiously the NUFC history does not mention him. What this tee-total Sunday School teacher would have made of the behaviour of many modern professional footballers can be imagined.

Source: United: The First 100 Years by Paul Joannou, ACL and Polar Publishing, 1992

Although not exactly a famous footballer who died during the war (he wasn't a professional and he lived!), I thought you may find this intersting. My great-uncle Robert George Barker played football for the Royal Flying Corps in Canada. He'd had trials for Burnley just prior to joining up as an acetylene welder and was sent to Canada to work on the training squadrons at Camp Borden. He was the only enlisted man in a team of officers, presumeabley as a bit of a ringer. I have one of his footballing medals from when they played the American All Stars either from or in Texas. It is only a flimsy piece of brass in the shape of a Maltese Cross, but a nice family item. Attached is a (poor) photo of Uncle Bob and his wife Edith.

Sorry to bore you a bit of my family history.

Steve

StevieB,

On the contrary, far from finding yr post boring its nice to know how proud you remain of yr Gt Uncle's service and football career, and quite rightly so.

Thanks to all who continue to add to names to this thread.

Sigs

I have been reliably informed that Harry Hanger (5th Royal Irish Lancers, kia 23/3/1918) was a Crystal Palace player.

Neil

There was a piece in the Times sports supplement last Monday concerning a book recently published (or about to be), called McCrae's Battalion by Jack Alexander (Mainstream Publishing - £15.99).

This particular battalion (16/Royal Scots) was formed from players and supporters of Heart of Midlothian FC. McCrae himself was the local MP and he did serve with the battalion for a small period. Might be of interest to anyone with a duel WW1/football interest.

Sorry to poke my nose in here, but...

Does anyone know if anything happened to the "1st world cup" players?

It was the Lipton cup, West Auckland against Juventus in Turin in 1909, and we won! but some of those guys must have fought in the 1st war.

A film was mad about it with Denis Waterman.

Apparently my gt Uncle was in it, but so far haven't been able to confirm this.

KIm

Kim,

Thats a very good question. I have to do all my internetting in my lunch hr at the moment due to home pc having gone off for repair so cant look now, but will see if I can trace names of the team and see what is available on the web on bios and CWGC. Certainly a couple of the players went off to Italy to play professionally following that tournament and may have still been there when war broke out.

Out of interest who was yr Gt Uncle?

Kim ... still looking, but which one is yr Great Uncle?

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/cong.../9/worldcup.htm

On the subject of footballers my grandad, ex-RFC fitter, was offered professional terms with Coventry City after the war. He turned it down as he was getting better money working in an aircraft factory. How times change...

Another to add to your list - Oscar Horace Stanley Linkson, (KIA 8th August 1916) who was a regular on the Manchester United first team 1908 - 1912 before moving to Shelbourne in Ireland.

He returned to sign up for the Middlesex regiments 17th Battalion (1st Football).

I have been told he played for QPR during the war - but I've yet to find proof that they were still playing then (I've also been told by another source they disbanded when the ground was taken over as a barracks or a training ground)

I am currently trying to track down more information (via the PRO and National Archives) about the football battalion. Anyone who would be interested in what I find (if anything) do let me know

Zoe

Not a well known player;

L/Clp Harold Springthorpe, Lincs Yeomanry.

Harold played for Stamford Town, before moving to Northampton. Here he played for Northampton in the Southern League. Harold again moved, this time to Grimsby, where he played for the "fisherman" for several years, and in 1910 received his amateur international cap, playing for England against Wales.

Harold also apparently played for "the Wanderers" (?), taking part in several footballing tours in continental Europe.

Hi Jim,

Sorry to correct you here but G.T.F.C. are known as:

The 'Mariners',

Not the 'Fishermen'

Or as supporters of Scunthorpe and Lincoln call them...The Cod 'eds

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

The wife's always correcting me so I'm used to it .

Being a former Lincolnshire lad, I've been to a few Grimsby games, and am aware of them being the "mariners". Not sure if they used to be the "fisherman" (from the November 1915 newspaper reporting Harold's death) or whether it was an error made at the time.

Jim