The Westminster Dragoons Stables in Horseferry road, Westminster demolished now the Chanel 4 HQ.

London Scottish are across the way in a revamped Victorian drill hall with Crystal Palace type roof. I do not know if the Hall is their original base or if they are new occupants. I suspect they are squatters.

My favourite is a smaller triangular hall also with a glass roof surronded by Regency st, Brooke st and Hap Terrace( I think) Westminster/Pimlico which until last year was in a very sorry state but is now converted into luxury flats. There are no markings on the building to give a clue to the unit, perhaps someone else knows.

I will try and remember to bring my camera to work to get a piccie of it.

Graham - thanks for that.

I didn't get to Horseferry road, but wandered around the Westminster area in the rain, and found the modern London Scottish premises. I understand the roof was moved from Buckingham Gate to the new location.

I missed the Regency street premises; originally the Electrical Engineers, Royal Engineer Volunteers with Drill Hall at 46, Regency Street, Westminster, London SW, later HQ, 1-6 Companies London Electrical Engineers RE.

A picture would be marvellous.

Graeme - sounds like you may have this already, but in case not, here is the HQ of the 16th Londons, Queens Westminsters at 58 Buckingham Gate SW1.

The modern building just beyond it is I think on the site of the London Scottish HQ (14th) at 59 Buckingham Gate.

...and a close up of the area around the door. To the naked eye (but not on this pic) one can just make out "The Queens" on the white scroll above the lower left window and "Westminster" on the scroll immediately above the door (and below the portcullis). The letters were clearly in relief but have long since been hacked off.

Since posting a message above, which I've deleted now I know the material arrived, I've acquired an extract from a newspaper 6th August 1976 about the demolition of another local drill hall in Cheshire, with journalist’s report and photos. Will email, as usual, after annotating with his comments. There are various contemporary photos of its users, dated 1911, to follow, when my contact has had them copied.

Had a brill talk with a very interesting elderly man to get this information.

Gwyn

Thanks, Charles. That's one of the drill halls in London that I hadn't got to yet.

Nice to see it.

Graeme

Thank you, Gwyn, as ever you have done the Database proud.

Can I just say, in public, that this lady has acted above and beyond the call of duty; there are a number of occasions where Gwyn has turned up some really good info, particularly on Cheshire, that i feel as tho' this is a shared project!

Thanks, Gwyn, and all who have made a contributiuon so far. It's a fascinating and important project that relies on the input of Forum members to add shape and substance to the stuff I find on the Net. Without a lottery win, I'll never have the opportunity to visit all 3600-odd listings in the database, and this is where the Pals come in with their local knowledge and cameras.

Where's your local drill hall? Do I know about it?

Drop me a line...


Graeme

Oh. (Blushes.) Oh. I’m just naturally inquisitive and like talking to people. Thank you.

I’ve seen Graeme’s amazing data base, with its hundreds of pictures of lovely, quirky or plain ugly buildings. Yes, hundreds. On one level, my reaction is total admiration for the diligence and perseverance which has collected and collated all the data: the thousands of detailed references, the archive material, the photos. On another, I think it's a very sad, unhappy set of buildings: the symbol of the end of the journey in life of so many thousands of men.



Rest of content deleted

Hi, I'm fascinated in the wide variety of structures falling into the 20th century defence category and have recently read through your thread on drill halls with great interest. Living in Lincolnshire, I was wondering if your database is accessible online, or if not, you know of any halls in or near my home county dating from 1900 or after. I already know of and have photographed 3 - Boston, Spilsby & Horncastle - how might I go about finding more? Though I have no details, I've posted photographs of the 3 mentioned. Below, Boston.

The Spilsby drill hall

Horncastle

Any help appreciated, Sam

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the three wonderful pictures.

The database is as yet unavailable online, but if you wish to PM me, I'll forward the accesible version in Word format for Lincolnshire by email or post.

There's quite a bit of info, but there's also a lot of gaps. Any help is gratefuly received, even if the answer is that 'it was demolished in 1974 and is now a Netto supermarket.' At least that confirms the address for further research.

Anyone who wants details of their local or county drill halls just needs to ask... Don't hold your breath 'cos there are so many blank listings, but perhaps you can fill the voids.

Thanks again, Sam

Graeme

The drill hall in Boston is described in Kelly's Directory of 1913 as follows;

‘The 1st Lincolnshire Battery of the 1st North Midland Brigade R.F.A. Territorial Force was formed in 1860 as the Lincolnshire R.G.A. (Vols.), and had in 1913 an enrolled strength of 130 members; the corps has a spacious drill hall in Main Ridge, where there are four 15-pr. B.L.converted guns. The C Company [sharing the Main Ridge drill hall] of the 4th Territorial Force Battalion of the Lincolnshire Regiment was also formed in 1860, and comprises 3 officers and 92 men; the shooting range is at Slippery Gowt marsh.’

The drill hall also provided a home for a Troop of 'B' Sqn Lincolnshire Yeomanry.



Horncastle was home to the Horncastle Detachment, 4th Battalion The Lincolnshire Regiment (G Company) and a troop of 'B' Sqn Lincolnshire Yeomanry. It is suggested that it is now .. the Town Hall, built as a drill hall in 1901…..
I have another listing of Whizkidz (B3), Indoor Adventure Play for Under 10s, The Old Drill Hall, South Street, Horncastle, Lincolnshire,, can anyone shed any light?




The drill Hall, in Halton road, Spilsby, erected in 1899, at a cost of £1,700, is a structure of red brick with stone dressings, and has sergeant-instructor’s quarters attached.’ (Kelly) Headquarters of C Company 5th Battalion Lincolnshire Regt.

Graeme

There is one in Westham, East Sussex (near Pevensey). The outside is still intact and inside is now used as a repair garage. I will send on a photo once the film is finished and developed.

Regards

Invicta

Invicta

Is that the drill hall in Eastbourne Road?

It was on my list of visits recently but never made it; thanks for getting there for me!

The photo offer is a bonus.

thanks

Graeme

I have been to The Albion, and can confirm Dragon's high praise of it. It is an atmospheric Victorian pub in a truly historic setting. Good food too - I recommend the oat cakes.

Ste

The drill hall is actually in Mill St, not far from College St, down the side of Lowe House RC Church.

As you say, the inscription gives the date of 1861, along with the motto 'DEFENCE NOT DEFIANCE'. The Sea Cadets do indeed use it, and for their purposes it is called 'TS SCIMITAR'. A variety of other community organisations also meet there.

The building was headquartes to the 2nd Volunteer (Rifle) Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment, which became the 5th Battalion of the Territorials. Adjacent is Volunteer St, leading to Duke St, where the Rifle Hotel stands, once named The Rifle Corps.

The Battalion had outlying companies at Widnes and Prescott.

The other drill hall in St Helens was home to the TF Engineers, and stood at Croppers Hill. The present TA Jubilee Barracks now stands on the site, and the name (and its appearance) suggests it was constructed in the late 1970s.

I'll provide pics as soon as I can.

Cheers,

Ste

Absolutely fab info Ste, just what we need. What it was, where it is and what it is now, even if it's a car park. Photos gratefully received in the fullness of time.

Thanks!

Graeme

Graeme

the Westham one is on the Eastbourne Road right by the station. The photos are being developed. Will get you a copy very soon

Regards

Invicta

Thanks, Invicta.

Most grateful

Graeme

I havnt read all the posts (as there are quite few)

Lincoln has a splendid Drill Hall financed by Joseph Ruston of Ruston & Proctor and Ruston & Hornsby fame. I am pleased to say it has recently been refurbished nad is hosting entertainments again.

See posts passim - a couple of pages back. I sent Graeme a set of photos of Lincoln DH in September. I was very impressed with the conversion. The memorial on the inside wall was particularly poignant.

Someone told me that there'd been a lot of public pressure to save the building. I'm glad the civic authorities listened. In the post I made prior to this one, the community didn't get worked up until they realised that the drill hall really was a car park.

Gwyn

And, on the strength of these 2 recommendations, I had lunch there on Thursday (whilst researching at the Cheshire's Museum) and probably will do so again this Thursday. Excellent grub.

John

Hello Graeme

From my expedition over the weekend into ‘my’ areas of North Wales, I’m pleased to tell you about five positive sightings of Welsh drill halls which have not had the skill and care of a hydraulic excavator and been converted into a Llidl.

They have all been preserved and their futures safeguarded by being used variously within their communities.

I’ve sent you a long email with full details; and photos will follow.

Gwyn

PS John - I didn't actually recommend the Albion; I haven't eaten there and I'm not sure that they do my sort of food. I haven't seen anything resembling a goats cheese roulade being consumed, or sushi. I've merely dropped in there (almost literally) for a pint when perambulating the Walls.

Gwyn

Whether intended or not, I take this observation as a great recommendation.

John

This drill hall was also home to the TF West Lancs Field Ambulance.

The St Helens Reporter (Nov 20, 1914 p.5) reported:

‘On Friday morning the local detachment of the 3rd West Lancashire Divisional Engineers and Field Ambulance left headquarters at Cropper’s Hill for their winter training quarters at Blackpool. The weather was very inclement at the time of departure, and, beyond a few people who assembled at headquarters, but the few who lined the streets gave the men a hearty send-off. The members of the 3rd W.L.F.A. left at 9.45, being under the command of Capt. Dick. They are 220 strong. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in boarding houses in Clifford-road. The Engineers left at 10.30. There are about 350 rank and file under the command of Major Taberner. The officers will be billetted at the Imperial Hydro and the men in Adelaide-street.’

cheers
Dave Risley

Sandyland Drill Hall, Wisbech now demolished - site occupied by a superstore

Gas Road, March still used by the ACF & ATC

All The Best

Chris

Big thanks to Gwyn (as always - my North West Correspondant is well travelled!) and also Dave and Chris.

Just knowing whether these places still exist is so important; it's harder to locate the precise site of a drill hall when it's now a Lidl or an industrial estate.

Keep it coming, folks!

Graeme

Hi Dave,

I see from your profile that your special interest is the St Helens Pals (11th SLR). Are you local to St Helens? I ask because that's where I'm from/live, and I'm researching the 5th Battalion.

Cheers,

Ste

Ste,
I am indeed from and live in St Helens. My grandfather was in 2/3 WLFA and several family members were in 4th, 5th & 11th South Lancs. You may have seen me in The Reporter the other week in a story about a surprise photo at World of Glass. I'm interested in the South Lancs but more so in the 20 men of the WLFA on the Royal Edward. If you think we can share info, please email me.
regards
Dave

242 Brigade, previously 3rd South Midland Royal Field Artillery Brigade, Drill hall, Stoney Lane, Birmingham. There are memorials to the fallen in WW1 on the outside. I hope one day to go and get a picture. I think Stoney lane is in the Sparkbrook area.

Hilary

Hilary

The Stoney Lane drill hall is a newer building than the 3rd South Midland gunners used. I wasn't aware of any memorial; If you're not local i could take pictures for you. I certainlywouldn't make a special effort to visit this part of the Second City!

There is an interesting drill hall not too far away, in Taunton Road, once the home of 1st South Midland Mounted Brigade Company ASC. Now used as an Asian cash and carry, you'd be hard pressed to recognise its' military past.

If you want pictures, let me know.

Graeme

Graeme, no. Manchester is England’s Second City.

Birmingham is a large town near London.

Gwyn

You're right, Gwyn.

Apart from the London bit.

The Brummies built Milton Keynes to keep the Cheeky Cockney Costermongers from invading, just like Hadrian and Offa before them.

You'll also find that the Brummies kept you Northern rabble away by a strategically placed Stoke on Trent. Ha.

'Form the Allegros into a circle, and prepare to repel everyone else in the country.'

Graeme

Graeme

Whilst looking for something else I came across this site which has lists of venues used which include a number of Drill Halls. Hope this helps.

Dave

http://www.prewarboxing.co.uk

Dave - thanks.
Another late night trawling lists........
Seriously, daft as it seems, just the acknowledgment of a drill hall existing is a big help.

And Gwyn's picture is, indeed, of one of those pre-war boxing venues - Rhyl drill hall.

Great stuff, folks.

Graeme

Hello All!
What I've got to add isn't very helpful, but here goes. (I don't think this drill hall has been mentioned before, but it's a long thread, so apologies if it has). I've been researching the 3rd Battalion London Regiment, so I thought I'd have a little go at trying to find a photo of their drill hall. (The local guide book "From Primrose Hill to Euston Road" states that the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal Fusiliers leased the building between 1860 and 1921 - it had earlier been a Vestry board room and offices). A long day's search at the local history library in Holborn showed that they have no photos of the drill hall, unfortunately. The WW2 bomb damage map for the street it was situated in (now Varndell Street, called Edward Street until 1938) show that the building was slightly damaged by bombing. The whole area was demolished and replaced by a council estate built during the 50's and 60's. I was born in the street - the actual site of the drill hall is now a low block of flats called Staveley. A thorough search of the local newspapers might be fruitful. I started one, but I didn't have much time when I was in England - I'll give it a go next time I'm in the country.
All the best,
Tony

Tony, there's hours of research in that posting!

I have traipsed those streets, in the rain, to find that lovely council estate. And it's somewhat disappointing to get there and find no trace whatsoever.

I don't have a photo, or indeed any more info, to offer you, but I am glad that you covered that particular drill hall so concisely.

If anything more comes up, I'll be sure to let you know

thanks

Graeme

As promised, a couple of pics of the Mill Street Drill Hall, St Helens - home of the 5th Battalion South Lancs. Next time I'll visit during the day then I can take one of the exterior!

As you might gues from some of the nautical decor, it is used by the Sea Cadets and is now known as TS Scimitar.

The main hall:

Another of the main hall, facing the other way:

Down in the cellars - this pile of junk is in a small room with a reinforced door frame and a vaulted brick ceiling. Perhaps the magazine? The rest of the cellars just have the floor boards above.

Nice pictures, Ste.

The cellar one's interesting.

Not too sure about the Sea Cadets' colour scheme, tho....

Graeme

Agreed! However, the building is likely to be turned into flats or demolished in the next couple of years, so the Sea Cadets might be the last line of resistance. In that case, I vote Cadet!

S

Ste

Cadets win, but flats run a good second; the building remains, often with some plaque or someting regarding its' history, and it's just another stage in the building's history.

Demolition is such a tragic waste.

Makes me realise that the project should've started ten years ago....

Graeme

True, flats wouldn't be a disaster by any means. In some ways, it might be preferable to cadet use for the building's long term future. Currenty, much of the building is hardly used and the parts that are used are only active for a few nights per week. So although the Cadet force maintain the building, it is a bit dodgy in places and is likely to deteriorate over time.

Private residents and their host organisation would look after the building to a higher standard which would secure its long term future. On the other hand, the redevelopment would involve a complete remodelling of the interior, fundamentally destroying much of the layout inside.

The building was purpose built for the local Volunteers in 1861 and has been in continuous miltary/cadet use ever since (I think), so it is approaching a 150th anniversary in its current form.

I'll await news of its future with interest, and return a number of times over the coming months to explore further and take more photos.

The old mess on the other side of the street is still in use as the St Helens Royal Navy Association Club. Long may it continue.

Cheers,

Ste

What if you had started it ten years ago, Graeme? True, there would have been more drill halls to record, but without knowing what the rate of loss has been over the decade, hindsight isn’t really valid, apart from a personal regret that you didn’t start it earlier.

Even if you’d started your project in 1919, you’d never have been able to record all the drill halls. Even the army didn’t and doesn’t know how many there were, or where they were or are, and hasn’t got records to help you. It’s as though they’ve been regarded as a Cinderella asset. They’d have been commonplace, not particularly worthy of special attention, though they were often used within the community for other purposes over the decades following the War and some people regarded them with affection. The evidence is that their demolition was often applauded, as the removal of an anachronism from a previous era to make way for something which was perceived as being an improvement for the community, such as shops or car parks.

Where you’re coming in is that the removal of yesterday’s commonplace has eventually given the surviving drill halls their rarity or scarcity value, and you’re trying to e-save them at the point in history at which they’ve become interesting.

And, ten years ago, how could you have achieved what you have done? I don’t know about you, but ten years ago, 1995, I’d only just learned to use my Internet connection and email; resources were limited and pedestrian; and the huge amount of research you’ve already carried out would have been next to impossible without the on-line resources which we use now and the e-contacts you’ve made.

As I’ve said privately, you’re in a similar position to archaeologists who are given a month to excavate an ancient settlement revealed when contractors are digging for the foundations of a new superstore. There can’t be a perfect outcome, but there’s a good enough outcome within the limitations. You’ve already achieved an awesome amount and your project is still developing.

Your database and photographic records are preserving information where it might not have been valued or saved otherwise; and rather than feeling demoralised about what might have been had you started years earlier, you should be proud that you’re advancing knowledge for the future.

They’ll not all be knocked down anyway. Some of them are remarkably fine buildings.

You’ve started. That’s much better than not starting at all.

Gwyn

...and just when you wondered whether it was worth it..........

Gwyn makes a valid point or two. But the big thing in starting this was the lack of information. And hopefully the project will eventually fill some of that gap.

Nice to be acknowledged, tho.

Thanks again, Gwyn

Graeme

The lack of information is both regrettable and surprising, but it can, to some extent, be put right.

These buildings were part of the infrastructure of the community. Every neighbourhood is anchored in its buildings, which include its churches, civic buildings, premises connected with utilities, schools, shops and hospitals, which have had to be deliberately planned for and provided. In the era prior to and including the Great War, the list of cornerstone buildings included the drill halls which you are e-recording and this is part of their significance and importance.

The contemporary archive material which I’ve sent you includes articles which convey the considerable pride with which towns regarded their drill halls and the immense public support which they attracted. For example, they may have been built with generous gifts of money from the public: the Congleton Chronicle records that, ‘The response to the appeal was both prompt and generous’, that there was a ‘hearty response’ and that Sir Walter Shakerley ‘generously’ donated the land. (1905)

Once the buildings were complete, local newspapers carried spirited reports with profuse enthusiasm: ‘fine building’,’ admirable’, ‘utmost value’, ‘greatly increased facilities’, ‘ample light’, ‘cannot fail to greatly benefit’ and ‘Altogether we think that not only the Volunteers but the town in general are to be congratulated’ (all Congleton). Lincoln: ‘very striking and effective appearance’, ‘skilfully carved [stonework]’, ‘magnificent proportions’, ‘acoustic properties…simply perfect’, ‘very special feature’, ‘comfortably and completely furnished’, ‘everything has been provided for and nothing has been overlooked’. (Lincolnshire Chronicle 1890)

And this is before one reads the descriptions of the high quality fitments and décor, including extensive use of mahogany, oak, carefully glazed brickwork, ornamental cast-ironwork, revolving shutters, beautiful chairs and even a library.

There is also evidence of planning for community use as well as their primary military functions. Continuing to refer to Congleton and Lincoln, the drill hall in Congleton was to be used for entertainments, shows and bazaars, while Lincoln drill hall was even fitted with a soup kitchen so that ‘in times of great distress in the city, when it becomes unfortunately necessary to feed many poor people and children… the hall shall be used for the purpose, without any fee whatsoever…’.

You’re not just e-saving semi-derelict spaces with walls round them; you’re e-recording buildings which mattered to every community in a way I think we can’t imagine now. You’ve read the reports of a very well attended three-day bazaar to fund one town’s drill hall, with the drill hall decked out as an army camp; I can’t imagine a fund-raising event today lasting three hours, let alone three busy and packed days.

How many of the population gave much thought to the truth that their proud buildings were part of a scheme which could mobilise on a national scale every man in every community to fight in a war, if required? I don’t know. The reports do focus on the military equipment and facilities, even down to soundproofing so that the adjoining neighbours wouldn’t hear the guns. (You were going to tell me what a morris tube was, by the way.)

Both the military and social history are factors in the importance of your project and you must not ever think that it’s futile.

Gwyn

Hello Graeme

Sorry I have not replied until now, but the Christmas period has been a little hectic!

Thank you for the information on the Stoney Lane Drill Hall. The information about the memorial stones was from the book by ND James - Before the Echoes Die Away. I need to look up the relevant pages again, but if my memory serves me right (not a foregone conclusion!) the stones were positioned after the hall was built.

Do you know when the Drill hall was rebuilt and when? We are coming up to Birmingham in February and I would like to take a picture of it if possible, my Great Uncle's name is commemorated there. He was a member of 242 Brigade.

We are used to Birmingham, having lived there for six years so know the area a little bit.

Hilary

Graeme

Opening of the new Drill Hall for the RFA and the Staffordshire Yeomanry in Bismark Road, Wolverhampton on 1 July 1911.

Source: The Uniforms of the British Yeomanry Forec 1794-1914 No:15 - Staffordshire Yeomanry

Dave