A marvellous photo, Dave.

This drill hall was one of the earliest that I visited, and photographed on the first day of its' partial demolition. I understand it has undergone conversion into flats, with only the offices incorporated into the new building.

It provided premises for both the HQ, 4th (Staffordshire) Battery and ammunition column of the 3rd North Midland Brigade, RFA, and a Troop of D Squadron Staffordshire Yeomanry, plus a riding school.

I understand it was used as a telephone exchange for many years.

I doubt the GPO or BT dressed up for its re-opening....

Graeme

Dear All, I found this topic on a search for the Drill Hall in Lenham Road, Sutton, Surrey which was used for the 2nd VB East Surreys. My reason for searching was that my Great-Grandfather was living in Drill Hall House in the 1901 census & was a Sgt-Instructor (he was previously RMLI sergeant), his wifes' listed ocuupation is HMS - 2nd VB East Surrey. I have visited the area only to find the Drill Hall is now a multi-storey car park !!! Does anyone have a picture of it or suggestions where to find one or even info on the Drill Hall? Any help would be much appreciated. Many thanks....Andrei

graeme, have you been writing for the b.c. bugle?
enoch

Ar bay, Aynuck, aer kid.

(For those who live nearer the coast, a rough translation is; 'I have not, Enoch, my friend.' The Black Country Bugle is not the Journal of the Wolverhampton Light Infantry, it's a local newspaper devoted to, well, the Black Country, the bit sort of North West of Birmingham.)

Have I been missing something? Let me know!

Thanks
Graeme

in this week's bugle(page 14/15) there is a article called ' the black country's drill halls- beautiful buildings for square-bashing and square-tangoing!. there is nice edwardian picture of smethwick's drill hall. i thought you had written the article!

enoch

Andrei - appologies for not replying sooner.

Firstly, thanks for the indication of the demolition of Sutton's drill hall. Just shows how little these places are valued.

As far as photos go, I have nothing. However, your first port of call should be your local Library service archives, who may well have a picture. Ask the staff, who are usually incredibly helpful if you tell them precisely what you are looking for, search their indexes under Territorial, Volunteer, Army, Military and drill hall.

Try your local paper. If it's been around for a hundred years, as many have, their photographic archive may provide. Or give the features editor a call - they may run a piece on your researches.

If there's a museum for the East Surrey Regiment, they may be worth a call, but the lack of regimental info is the thing that started this project.....

Best of luck, if you find a photo I'd love a copy. If anything crops up I'll let you know.

Graeme

Thanks Enoch!

Off to the shops......

Graeme

Back from the shops.......

A wonderful two page spread on Black Country drill halls. Well written and researched, with some photos.

I spoke with the author of the piece today, and we may collaborate on another article. (or I'll send my notes and she'll write stuff...)

And yes, Enoch, I can see why you thought that I may have written it, it's got some of my phrasiology in it, from this very thread.....

Nice to be used as a resource!

Graeme

O. And if anyone wants a copy, http://www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/detail.asp?cat=General%20News&articleID=5320907 and five second class stamps. a real bargain.

Hello Graeme

DON’T.


Gwyn

Hello again Graeme

This raises issues which cause me concern and I have emailed you accordingly.

Gwyn

graeme, i look forward to the article! it may be just me but i think the bugle are publishing a lot more 1st world war articles(which i don't mind one bit)

i wait to be educated
enoch(nr old hill train station)

My position is simply that I think that Graeme should have the credit for his own words, his own research and his own intellectual property.

He has accumulated an amazing, impressive collection of material, some of it gifted by other people. He's a fluent, interesting and competent writer in his own right. I have actually seen his database and his powers of expression. I think he should get the personal recognition and the feeling of pride that the quality of his achievement deserves.

My objection is to people lifting someone else's words and passing them off uncredited as their own. It is simple enough to contact someone via the forum and ask permission, which would in most cases be freely given. Freeloading is intellectually, academically and morally offensive.

There are other issues which I have raised privately to Graeme and which I am not going to explain in public. However, he knows that I believe completely in the value of his project and the worth of his material, and in his capacity to publish it under his own name.

Gwyn

On reflection, and following enoch's comments and Gwyn's input, on and off forum, I have decided it would be better to write an article rather than pass on information.

That way, attention is drawn to the project, the Forum and the invaluable contribution of pictures and information from some very generous people.

Watch this space....

Graeme

I am so pleased to hear this, Graeme. I’m glad you had a rethink.

I know it will be good. I have complete confidence.

Best of luck.

G

The drill hall of what was 254 Battery RHA ( that's what it was between the wars) in Wood Lane, Shepherds Bush, London W12, is now a Community Centre and OAP's luncheon club.
Still has the RA badge in the stonework at the front.

Squirrel

Good luck with the article Graham. I understand Dragon's concerns and think you should have every credit for all this work.

Cheers,

Ste

Thanks, Squirrel, that's exactly what i need to know.

Still there, waiting for me to visit and photograph.

Nice to know it's still valued by the community it once served.

Graeme

Thanks for the encouragement, Ste.

Makes it all worthwhile.

Graeme

Reading Squirrel's message, I wondered how many of the elderly people using the drill hall are the children of the young men who trained there prior to the Great War. Ghosts........

Graeme

Page 46 of the attached will be of interest to you.


Dave

www.bristol-city.gov.uk/bcc_planningservices/pdf/wl_ashley.pdf

Thanks, Dave, you have some strange bedtime reading....

Another one getting a residential makeover.

Info from the developers' website;
Sion Developments has purchased the Drill Hall in Old Market Street. The building and surrounds have been steeped in Bristol history, having been a sugar warehouse and sugar refinery owned by Bristol Sugar Refining Co Ltd and then the Bristol & West Sugar Refinery. After bankruptcy of the sugar company, well known Bristolian Sir H H Wills engineered a swap of land and buildings moving the Gloucestershire Territorial Force Association from Queens Road in Clifton to the Drill Hall. This gave Bristol University further land for development. Most recently the Drill Hall has been a postal sorting office, but the Victorian buildings are now being converted by Sion, with advice from TLT, into 40 apartments. Large numbers of American troops were based in Bristol before D-Day,
and the Drill Hall, Old Market Street was the billet for the first black American soldiers stationed in Bristol. Racial tension between white and black American soldiers erupted into a huge brawl in Park Street/Great George Street on 15 July 1944.
And a picture from me;

Click to view attachmentThanks, Dave, you have some strange bedtime reading....

Another one getting a residential makeover.

Info from the developers' website;
Sion Developments has purchased the Drill Hall in Old Market Street. The building and surrounds have been steeped in Bristol history, having been a sugar warehouse and sugar refinery owned by Bristol Sugar Refining Co Ltd and then the Bristol & West Sugar Refinery. After bankruptcy of the sugar company, well known Bristolian Sir H H Wills engineered a swap of land and buildings moving the Gloucestershire Territorial Force Association from Queens Road in Clifton to the Drill Hall. This gave Bristol University further land for development. Most recently the Drill Hall has been a postal sorting office, but the Victorian buildings are now being converted by Sion, with advice from TLT, into 40 apartments. Large numbers of American troops were based in Bristol before D-Day,
and the Drill Hall, Old Market Street was the billet for the first black American soldiers stationed in Bristol. Racial tension between white and black American soldiers erupted into a huge brawl in Park Street/Great George Street on 15 July 1944.
And a picture from me;

Graeme

This may be of interest:

http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/townandco....aspx?id=151154

Dave

It is, Dave, as always.

Thanks

Graeme

One that I was told couldn’t exist, because “they didn’t use bricks in Wales before the Second World War”. The photo was taken just after sunset and I left the street in it to show context. The drill hall has been shoe-horned into its surrounding street.

The foundation stone is dated 1882.

I think the string course (right hand picture) is rather attractive.

Graeme has the good pictures and details. I removed my original post because I’ve now had some better prints back.

Gwyn

Pictures removed by me

Fine pictures, Gwyn

The mad thing is, most people would walk past this twice a day, six days a week, for twenty years, and never look up to see for whom the hall was built.

A generation marched away from this very building, and few came back.

The Saturday Night soldiers' last Saturday night.

Dull old places, but they mark a part of our history. And they're as valid as the granite pillars with lists of names and windblown wreaths, or the plaques in the churches. This is where sweethearts kissed their last kiss, children waved Daddy off to war, and the old and wise shed tears for the loss to come.

And, as he closed the doors on a nation's youth, the old drill sergeant wished them luck. "You'll need it, my lads..."

Graeme

Graeme

2001 article on the Connaught Drill Hall, Portsmouth


www.portsmouthsociety.org.uk/docs2001/nlmar01.pdf

I was caught in a traffic jam last night on the way from the office to my week-day home here in Portsmouth and stopped outside a building that had 1st.H.R.E.V on the lintel over the doors. I take this to be 1st Hampshire RE Vols. I will not be going that way again until I get back from holiday in the first week in June. Will take some photos then. The building which is in Hampshire Terrace is in use by Portsmouth University. There is a 1910 map on this site;

www.portsmouthcc.gov.uk/media/Cons_Guidelines_No_6_Part_3.pdf


Dave

Graeme

Don't know if you have had this one brought to your attention before, but here goes anyway

King's Lynn - Purfleet Quay

Headquarters of the Army Service Corps Norfolk & Suffolk Brigade

I know that because its still painted on the side of the building

Present use unkown

can do a photo if required

All The Best

Chris

Graeme,

I have been reading through the history of your project and was interested to see a reference to the Cast Iron Sixth. Is it possible for you to repost copies of the photographs of the drill hall in Farrringdon Road as I cannot seem to access the earlier attachments which were provided.

Dave

Thanks for the link to the Connaught, Dave, I'd not seen this.

However, a very cold visit to Portsmouth a year last January yielded the Hampshire terrace premises, listed in Kelly's 1911 Directory as 'Hampshire (Fortress) Royal Engineers; Nos. 1 & 2 Works Companies, Nos. 4 & 5 Electric Light Companies, Hampshire terrace, Southsea.' and, shown on the fabulous map, further premises in St Paul's Rd, listed as '1st Wessex Brigade Royal Field Artillery; headquarters, 1st and 2nd Hampshire Batteries & 1st Wessex Ammunition Column, St. Paul’s road, Southsea.'

As always, I'm indebted.

Graeme

Chris, I'm glad you came up with this.

The info I have lists the unit, in 1912 at least, in Tuesday Market Place; my Favourite North West Correspondent visited the town to find no drill hall there.

A photo would be oh, so good!

Thanks

Graeme

Happily, Dave. If you're visiting, it's hidden up an entrance. I walked past it twice!

Graeme

Its not far from the Tuesday Market Place - Can you e mail me off forum requesting the photo which I will do in about a month as I'm going away for a while & will act as reminder when I get back

All The Best

Chris

Gwyn

thats correct - I was in a bit of a rush yesterday so only looked at it from Kings St

All The Best

Chris

Graeme

The Hampshire Terrace drill hall is now the University's Wiltshire Building.
Current campus map below.

Dave

Gwyn

sorry I dont know anything about TS Vancouver, but will make enquiries

All The Best

Chris

Thanks, Dave.

Graeme

Graeme,

Many thanks, I shall make a point of visiting when I am next in London.

Regards,

Dave

Graham,

as promised some time ago, here are a couple of external pictures of the Drill Hall in St Helens, home of the 5th South Lancashires.

Click to view attachment
A front view, on Mill St, with the Lowe House Church in the background. The present Church was erected in the 1920s, replacing the less impressive structure that stood on the same site throughout the war.

Click to view attachment
Incsription over the main window of the hall itself; the bust is reputed to be a likeness of David Gamble, who founded the Volunteer battalion in the town in 1860, and constructed the building in 1861.

Click to view attachment
A view of the parade ground, to the rear of the building. The fence meeting the rear of the Hall represents a post war boundary, made to enclose the Church's garden.

The whole area is formed part of the St Mary's Lowe House RC Church complex, replete with schools, a large church, playground, Drill Hall and parade ground. Under current plans, the regeneration of the area will leave the Drill Hall and Church buildings intact, but will substantially alter the surrounding environment.

Cheers,

Ste

Graeme

From an earlier post on this thread I gather that info is light for north- and mid-Wales.

I'm aware of 2 drill halls in small mid-Wales market towns - the Old Drill Hall in Hereford Street, Presteigne, and the Drill Hall in Bowling Green Lane, Knighton. I don't know anything of their history, but they are still in use. That in Presteigne now appears to have some connection with the Welsh Assembly (gleaned from a google search), but the Knighton one still has TA (I think) and ACF and Air Cadet Org connections - home to Knighton 2 Troop ACF and 579 (Knighton) DF Air Cadet Org. It's also home to the Knighton Town Silver Band (of which, incidentally, my sister and her husband are veteran members...)

I remember attending dances at Knighton Drill Hall in the 60s/70s, and it hosted what I imagine was the ONLY mid-Wales gig by the blues-rock band Chicken Shack in 1969. Some 30 or so years earlier (3 Sep 1939), it was home to the 332nd (Radnor) Battery of 133rd Field Regt, RA (TA) - this also gleaned from google.

Do you have either of these in your database? I hope to visit the folks in Knighton in the next month or so and will try and get a photo and might pop over to Presteigne and have a look at theirs too.

All the best with the project.

Jim

Ste - lovely info, brilliant pictures, absolutely what we need.

The premises still exist, are still used and will, apparently, survive a while yet.

Good news.

nice building, grateful for the shot of the motto.

Thanks again

Graeme

Hello Jim

Excuse my intrusion into your dialogue!

I often go across into North Wales and in my travels there I have also taken the occasional picture.
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The difficulty is the lack of specific addresses; it’s a waste of time to embark on unfocussed ramblings round a town asking, ‘Anyone seen a drill hall?’ Graeme’s amazing database has given me a lot of information. Additionally, I have written numerous letters and emails to people whose details were given to me as possible sources of information. Recently one contained some addresses, which will be very helpful and someone very kindly sent some maps, but the usual reply is that it is a very interesting project but unfortunately the person concerned knows of no records, or knows that the records were destroyed.

I have obviously contacted some regional and town archives, but any references seem to be so hidden deep in text that only physically reading them will track them down, if they are there at all: some archivists have been pessimistic that there will be any mentions. I have other avenues of inquiry, such as newspapers. I don’t want to be too specific on the Internet about who’s sent me material and with whom I’m in contact. Sometimes the best leads come from people who live in the town or area and can say exactly what there is (or was) and where.

Gradually I am filling in my own little amateur Access database with my information, various sources, letters written / received, actions, plans, etc, but it isn’t something I would want a professional to see. Nor are my own creative scribblings about them worth anyone’s time reading.

Graeme knows about all this and he doesn’t mind my meddling. Having made another few phone calls yesterday (same story: no records unfortunately, wish we had), I am convinced of the importance of his project both in creating a detailed and thorough collection of information where no records existed and, as far as possible, assembling a photographic record of buildings which range from the semi-derelict walled space to the substantial, beautiful or eccentric.

Gwyn

Graeme,

thanks, no problem. I've got quite a bit more detail on the Drill Hall, including some gripping accounts of events there in the early days of the war. If you want more / different pics (got some others including a view showing the mess, oppopsite the main hall, now the Royal Naval Association Club) just shout. There is another inscription just below the flag pole (just visible in the first pic above): 'V 1861 R', which puts it neatly in context.

I think the St Helens Drill Hall is unusual in that the building an immediate environs are so little changed - for the moment!

Cheers,

Ste

Graeme

Sure was - I missed it, working in London at the time - but oldsters still remember it as the loudest occurrence ever known in Knighton. The band were high in the charts at the time, I believe, but honoured a booking made when they were still fairly small-time on the college and local dance hall circuit.

Regards,

Jim

Shoutin', Ste. send me all you've got!

Everything is valid in this project, as it covers military, social and architectural history, and as pertinently put in your post, for the moment.

These places are being lost daily as the urge to redevelop strikes. I was in Aylesbury on Sunday, and took a couple of pictures of the 'old' drill hall on Oxford Road, probably 1930s and therefore outside the scoope of my project, but it's been replaced by brand new premises next door, and the old place is going for housing.

Which is why i implore everyone to let me know about their local drill hall. Is it still there? And for how long? Let's record them before they're lost.

Thanks for your input, Ste.

I really am grateful.

Graeme

I just have to note the tireless efforts of my North West Corresponant in my project.

Gwyn has been supportive of my endeavours for some time now, and has turned uop some amazing stuff, going places I wouldn't even consider (Mountsorrel) and risking life and limb for pictures of the most unlikely buildings that provided premises for the training of the Saturday Night Soldiers.

I don't want to devalue the input of anyone who has responded to this thread, on or off-forum, but Gwyn has put in more effort than I have, and it's my project!

It's an impossible task; so little remains in terms of premises and records, and to have my friends on the Forum, and especially Gwyn, taking time to send stuff to me, is humbling.

Thanks.

Graeme

Thank you, Graeme.


No, all I’ve done is take a few pictures. I like taking pictures and I’ve always been interested in what vernacular and community buildings say to me. I usually take my camera out and about with me, so why not take a few photos for Graeme’s project? It’s as valid for me as photographing hubcaps outside Selfridges (avatar) or figures on local cenotaphs.

I haven’t done as much as Graeme has, by a million reductions. I don’t spend hours in the deep night trawling data and painstakingly making thousands, yes thousands, of records where there were none before, collating them with photos and other documentary evidence. He has a stunning range of material.

Do I risk life and limb? No... he means that when I found that one building was surrounded by others, the obvious thing to do was to go on top of the nearby car park roof and take a better picture that way. And by unlikely places, I think he means places like a lorry scrapyard where the drill hall is in use for engineering works on trucks.

Try asking local people about their town’s drill hall and the eyes of older ones will mist over and they’ll remember the dances or the bazaars, or the younger ones’ll p'raps say that their mum and dad met there; and even the other week I was talking to a mate who remembered the almost-art-deco one in the place where we grew up, and he said sadly that the town had lost its last large public indoor space; and it’s the same story over and over again. Hoardings. Demolition teams. Dust in the air. Supermarket or crinkly tin architectural disaster. Local people saying if only...

If only the cenotaphs could be unbuilt, if only the names could be uncarved, if only that bit of land cleared for a memorial could be grass again. We can at least do something about if only there were pictures of the buildings where it started for so many men.

Gwyn

I thought I'd share something of how I look at these places. I sent this to Graeme about a year ago after taking photos of a small Welsh drill hall.

.....

This post has gone to my blog, Lost Property.

Gwyn

Gwyn

Moody. Well moody.

Thanks

John