Hi all
At the carboot today pick up a load of postcards of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow

No 3&4

Nos 5&6

Nos 7&8

More

& More

& & More

At last

Excellent pics!

If you don't mind me asking, did you get a bargain? Hope so, they would be a great addition to a collection!

Well done and thanks for sharing.
SteveB

Cheers Steve
I feel that I did at a carboot

Hi,

I'm very interested in the middle photo in Post #3 - the one showing a stricken battlecruiser. This is SMS Seydlitz - another example of it is as shown below (although the photo is the 'wrong way round'). What I am interested in is the capsized ship on the right - a heavy cruiser by the looks of it.

The thing is, this photo of Seydlitz, bow down and showing extensive damage, was reportedly taken after Jutland on her return to port and is regularly referenced. The enlarged version you have would suggest that this may not be the case - it could be a Scapa Flow instead, post-war. If so, then what is the identity of the capsized ship and where was this (there may be another capsized ship in the background too).

Andy.

Mystery solved - a bit of 'Googling' reveals that the photo is actually a composite showing Seydlitz after Jutland and after scuttling at Scapa Flow.

Andy.

For anyone who hasn`t read it, I can recommend the account of the salvageing of the ships in the post-war years by "two men and a dog". How all the holes were patched underwater with cement (yes, underwater) and the hull pumped full of air for days till the ship got free of the mud and shot to the surface. That must have been some sight! Anyone know the book`s name? Phil B

As a matter of interest, would many of the ships have been of use to us in WW2 had they survived?

Approximately how deep is Scapa Flow? I realize the sea floor varies considerably, but I was wondering approximately how deep the ships fell. Andy

Andy,
A few years ago I managed to do some diving on some of the wrecks and they vary in depth down to about 38 metres depending on how they lay.

Andy

Our own 10 WW1 'superdreadnoughts' - the Royal Sovereign and Queen Elizabeth classes were in service in WW2, but the former were always too slow at 21 knots ever to bring any enemy warships to decisive action. They were useful primarily for convoy escort where enemy surface ship attack was feared, and for shore bombardment - worthy rather than glamorous applications.

The QEs, capable of 24 knots, were more flexible and did some outstanding service against the Italian navy in the Med., although still far too slow to catch the likes of Scharnhorst or Scheer in open ocean. To make them battleworthy for WW2 took extensive reconstruction as well as the addition of more up to date gunnery aids. In their case the expense and effort just about paid off. But you'd have to question the value of trying to man captured ships with unfamiliar equipment and machinery with crews with no opportunity to gain the depth of experience that was so brilliantly demonstrated by ships like, for example, Warspite. After all, at the time the opportunity presented, no-one could dare suggest it was all going to happen again...

Regards,
MikB

This may be the book you are refering to,-

Bowman, Gerald : "The Man who bought a Navy" : Harrap & Co. 1998

Regards John

For non-divers if you ever get the chance to visit Orkney take a trip to Ophir and takethe boat out to the wrecks.
See http://homepage.mac.com/graham.holliday/scmprovingeye.htm
It is really good.
Aye
Malcolm

Call me obtuse, but I can't help wondering what the man at the helm of the "Ramna" thought when she suddenly stopped? There cannot be that many people have have run aground on a battleship, can there?

Adrian

I don't know about being of use to use in the Second World War, but didn't a lot of the metal from ships sunk at Scapa Flow find its way into the Apollo lunar modules? Something to do with radioactivity or some such?

Stephen, whilst I have no idea about this (but would be interested to know more) I would have thought the metal (which was recovered in the 1920's and 30's) would have been truly recycled long before the Apollo programme? You are not confusing with the wrecks from Bikini Atol, are you?

Ian

Looks like Google muddies the waters here! But there are a number of wrecks still there, obviously now very battered as they were considered a source of scrap into the 1970s. I have been told by a diving acquantance that small pieces are still removed as needed. How true this is, though... Wonder what Bill Stone would make of this thread?


http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/scuttle.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_Sound

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/jralston/rk/scapa/salvage.htm

Adrian

From the first website:

Bayern as raised in 1933. She fetched a scrap value of £110,000 nearly half of which was profit. The salvage operations on the various ships started in the early 1920's with most of the ships having been raised by the late 1930's. Since then fragments of ships have been raised and since Hiroshima they remain an important source of quality radioactive free metals necessary for certain types of sensitive scientific instruments.
++

Think that may confirm Stephen's thoughts.

Ian

Ian,

Yeah, that sounds about right. Some science johnny was on TV years ago explaining it, but I never quite understood it, just remembered that parts of Scapa Flow are on the moon !!

Thanks

Stephen,

Just think about it! Werner Von Braun helped design the space rockets and Krupps provided the steel! Ach du liebe....

Ian

I recall that one of the salvaged hulks went out of control while being floated along the Forth. It went sideways through the bridge with a few feet to spare on each side !

Ian,

The salvage operations were a truly epic tale (see book referenced above).

The upturned hulk had been towed from Scapa to the Firth of Forth, and a debate over who was to act as pilot distracted the tug crews. As the Forth bridge approached it was clear that the hulk was due to pass on one side of a pier and the tugs on another side.

The tow was quickly cast off, and the hulk allowed to drift alone on one channel. The tugs put on full speed to collect it on the other side of the bridge.

For some minutes the hulk was drifting totally out of control, with bridge supports and other shipping all potential targets!

But there is a lot more to the whole tale and well worth the read.

Ian

Yes Ian, this is indeed a good read and a fascinating event.

Two interesting books about Scapa Flow are 'The Grand Scuttle' by Dan van der Vat and 'Scapa' by James Miller (profusely illustrated and much on WW2).

Ian

As a silly side-issue: it would appear from three posts in a row that having the name 'Ian' has something to do with the scuttled German fleet at Scapa? Or can you offer a sillier explanation!

Ian

Which Ian are you asking?



Ian

Scary - half of me is Ian too...

AdrIAN

I enjoyed that book too
Great postcards, by the way Mr Monstar...

Anything wrong with bringing some technology to the USofA? If they hadn't access to Von Braun they would still today try to match the Sputnik...

The Imperial Navy most likely was sunk 2times: Germany bought vast amounts of Scapa Flow scrap from the German ships in the 30ties - a time when special ship steel was rare to obtain even for the Royal Navy . This steel has been used by Krupp for the build up of the German Kriegsmarine; mainly for Admiral Graf Spee and Tirpitz.
NASA bought some steel due to its low to nil radioactive contamination (remember all nuke explosions happened 1945 ff).
Depicted are 2 reference books