Are re-enactors anoracs or are they historians.

I went to a gala Saturday and it was full reenactors, all dressed up to the 9's in their uniforms, a bit like those who marched last week along the battlefields.

Some people were saying how smart and a great chance to see history at first hand, others were saying how sad grown men dressing up to play games like they did when they were kids, weren't they good enough to be in the real army.

I will keep my opinion to myself that way no one can give me stick for being a historian or an anorac.

Please debate.

Kevin

I think useful historical research has resulted from some re-enactment. I'm thinking in the field of Roman armour and equipment etc.

However, the majority of the obese Nazi's, aging paratroopers, and stunted members of the Imperial Guard that you see wandering around are, in my opinion, embarrassing. I put them in the sad men playing soldiers category I'm afraid. Sorry.....

Regards
Gavin

Both!

I speak from some experience having wielded a pike for four years in the King's Lifeguard of Foot, 6th Company, Newark Garrison, a part of the Sealed Knot.

Some are dedicated, knowledgeable and contribute in some measure to our understanding of their chosen period.

But you also get the lager lout brigade and the idiots. One of our 'senior officers' was a Major who, when in uniform, was the most pedantic, bullying, loud and annoying ass I've ever had the misfortune to meet. Demanding that we show deference to his rank when on display was fine and all part of the 'show', but when he began expecting it when you were putting your tent up soon made you realise that he was a self-important, ego-tripping t*sser. On civvy street he was a hairdresser.

I used to really enjoy the 'living history' occasions and the big battles the Sealed Knot put on (they can often be a couple of thousand a side) and felt that they really helped inform the general public of the pivotal role the civil wars played in our national story. Talking to the public and demonstrating things was always good fun, especially to open mouthed kids who always wanted to play with the muskets and swords.

I stopped being a member when remaining true to the past ceased to be of importance to our esteemed Major and a few of the idiots surrounding him. One of their 'classics' was when they decided to burnish their breastplates bright silver, in total defiance of the fact that civil war soldiers in the field did not do this, merely because they wanted to look good.

Hi all
I am going over the top. As a reguler soldier with 20+ years, i feel re-enactors is what the name say's about them actors playing at being soldiers. Most of the one's i have seen are overweight & over here.

As a reenactor myself

There are many different type of group that you can find . Our group like most ww1 group demand alot of respect for the period we portray .

This is probily due to the price of the period that is chosern. Periods such as roman , ww1 and victorian cost alot to set up as the groups do ask that you have the proper stuff.

Other period such as some aspects of ww2 , American civil war and english civil war are easy to get into and cheap to start up .

It is all dependant on what the group started up with to do.

I'm sorry but i do think you're being a bit unfair, the ones I saw at the weekend obviously put a lot of time and effort into creating the effect. A few of them are also ex services....altho why anyone would want to continue to wear a uniform that probably makes the old KF shirt feel like silk I don't know but each to their own. I would imagine they do get immune to mockery, it would take some front to tell your workmates that you dress up like a soldier during your time off. Is there some sort of official rank structure? promotion system? do you join as a Pte and move up?

Anyway the way things are going it may well be they are our last line of defence! remember the contempt we had for the TA (STABS) look where they are now.

Mick

Reminds me of an occasion a few years ago. I was wandering around a militaria fair in Surrey when some members of the Waffen SS came wandering in. (I'm not sure why they felt the occasion called for dressing up, but anyway...). One was browsing on a stall and called out to his mate to come and look at something. His friend bawled back "Say Sir when you talk to an officer". And no, he wasn't joking.

As they walked off, everyone stallholder in earshot was heard to mutter "T*ssers!"

I thought I was the only one that wondered why they dress up to go to Militaria fairs, Denison smocks seem to be the in thing up here. My wife refuses to go in saying she can't stand the smell of sweaty men in combat jackets (but hold on, isn't that what attracted her to me 25 years ago, or should that be me to her?)

Some are dedicated men who attempt to portray history as it really was. (Wearing a wool uniform in the summer in Georgia while re-enacting an ACW battle is not comfortable.)
Their uniforms are authentic to the day, not newly manufactured. They live in deplorable conditions and eat things which are definately not on the "Burger King" menu.
There are others who get a kick out of swaggering around, especially the Nazi goons, the "airborne" or the tankers, and wear the uniform just to be considered what they think is "cool."
As far as I am concerned, I consider penguins in a zoo to be "cool."
So, we have....some true historians, some showoffs, some befuddled as to their role in life, and some 'twixt a rock and a hard place and haven't jumped yet.
Like 'em or leave 'em, I really don't think they all can be categorized into either anoracks or historians.
DrB


P.S. Being a veteran, I am impressed with the true re-enactors and highly amused by the buffoons who "wannabe."

I'm of two minds on this subject.

I visited Gettysburg a few years ago, and watched a battle re-enactment that was very impressive. It gave me a better understanding of how the units must have looked moving about the field, and the amount of smoke and noise generated.

On the other hand, as a 20+ year veteran I have a hard time understanding some of the motivations involved. I must admit I especially have to wonder about the guys who dress up as SS. What exactly are they trying to re-enact?

Paul

I think anything that can help people to understand what happen during the great war is a good thing. The BBC reports on the pals march were accessible and well edited - I think they put across the fact that these men were doing the march out of a profound respect for the sacrifice of a previous generation.

I managed to say well done to a couple of them at Lochnagar - I think they were an important part of the commemorations - well done to them all in my view.

Agree with others that there are of course idiots who probably ruin the overall image of this type of activity

Maybe we should dig out our Nuremberg Judges re-enactment outfits!

Mick

And the re-enactment gallows!

Haven't been to the Beltring show but a friend of mine who goes alot said the SS Troops had their children dressed as Hitler Youth.
That is SICK.

They should be shown pictures of children in concentration camp uniforms

Gloria

These are eactly the idiots that barrynee are talking about and the reason why I don't go to miliary fairs, re-enactments, etc. Just what is so admirable about the SS, Hilter Youth, Gestapo, etc that makes people feel the need to dress up as them.

Stephen

Last year at the Hartlepool Headland, there were re-enactors, dressed in WW1 uniforms, WW2 Nazi's marching about, WW2 British Para's, the lot....There was an old fellow watching, he was stotting mad, can't repeat his words, but he was not amused at the WW2 Nazi's and British Para's re-enactors, his son had to lead him away, his son said to someone that his dad was a veteran of Arnhem, and was not amused at fat overweight grown men, taking the p*** of him and his mates....I honestly believe if his son hadn't led him away, he would have chinned one of them....the old lad must have been ninety.

What a pity he didn't.

He was probably still fitter than the lot of them put together.

I think reenactors can certainly have an educational use, they can bring history alive to school children and adults alike. But yeah, Nazi reenactors? You can't tell me some of them aren't getting a dubious thrill wearing the SS flashes and stomping around.

Similar to John's post above, I took my grandad to the Beltring War and Peace show. A veteran of the 8th Army, El Alamein, Italy- he found is slyly amusing to see men pretending to be soldiers ("they wouldn't do it if they knew what the army was really like") and plain couldn't understand why anyone in their right mind would want to dress up like a Nazi.

I'm curious what WW2 vets think about the ww2 re-enactors.

A few years back I mentioned to my father-in-law, who served in the German army in WWII, that there was a group of guys in America who dressed up in German uniforms and represented his unit.

He said one word while shaking his head, "Wahnsinn!" Crazy, nuts, insanity, lunacy--however you'd like to translate it.


Paul

on the Somme there were some truly horrible sights, long grey hair and a comfortable girth. As someone who I spent the weekend said, they were probably re-enacting labour corps rejects. We decided to name this group the Tubbytommies.
Others really looked the part and were not of the 'look at me' ilk, as a collector I could adhere to their attention to detail that I considered a form of respect.
Saw one chap dressed as Australian cavalry who really looked like he'd stepped out of the past, felt sorry for the gee gee though as it was baking hot.

im a reenactor, and i can tell you, there are no political ss units in the uk, many units protray , "waffen" ss, the fighting ss, by 1944 much of the waffen ss was made up of foreigners, and the camp guards, were a completely different part of the ss, camp guards were usually army rejects who then were chucked into being a camp guard, of course in my opinion, all the camp guards should have be shot or hanged. and i also dont like the pudgy reenactors. the waffen ss are the ones you see in the camo smocks, the waffen ss out numbered the army by the end of the war, they were the elite, " at first" but in id war it expanded, with french, belgians, people from the balkans all joining> so please know your history before you think all ww2 german reenactors are nazis, the ones you might be thinking of, the black uniformed ones are hated by the general axis reenactment community, they are weirdos who try to walk into proper displays, now most events have the policy of throwing out these low lifes until they change

I'm confused as to what some people classify official re-enacting as? Is it simply portraying soldiers of ones own country? Does portraying soldiers of other countries classify you as a traitor or a sad sack?

I am a young re-enactor who comes from a very military orientated family....I've had tracable family members in the army since the late Victorian era, most notably the Worcestershire regiment. However, my portrayle as a re-enactor is as a Wehrmacht soldier - or how some of you would contemptably describe as "Nazi's" - may I remind some of those biggeted people that not EVERY Nazi was a German, and not every German was a NAZI; The group I am apart of strives to portray these hard fighting men as realistically as possible, many of us are historians and collectors who spend literally thousands of pounds a year. We pride ourselves on the educational aspects we provide to jo public who often know nothing about the German side of things other than "them Nazis wot bombed our chip shop".

We have provided uniforms and men for television programs on the history channel, we are invited by museums to work along-side them (most notably Bovington tank museum two weeks ago), and some of us help to do research for media such as PC/console gaming so that future generations are not fed historically incorrect rubbish - and so that the second world war and its horror is kept in memory.

Hardly seems like the "swaggering Nazis" as described earlier.....especially as not one of the men or women I know in the hobby are practising right wing anti-semites.....Nazism FYOI is dead, it died 60 odd years ago and just as well it did, unfortunately we today are left with "white power" and racism, its sick but its has nothing to do with re-enacting.

This has been my first post here as I was directed from a ww2 re-enactment forum, I have occasionally popped in as a guest as do I have interest in WWI, especially as several of my family members were involved in it, one falling at the Somme saving his comrades.

Well, I'm a living history bod-I (as you might have guessed) portray a VAD of WW1 and Hadfield-Spears Private Ambulance of WW2.
(Not the starched pinny, tidy haired VADs, but the women with mud on the hem of their shortened ward dress)
Living history has its merits. Done well it can provide a really useful insight for kids -they can handle the kit and weaponry, ask silly questions and generally in the MTV induced lack of imagination age we live in, give them a better understanding of WW1/WW2.
Don't jump on the 'oh most of them are fat old gits' bandwagon or the 'oh he's dressed as a German ergo he's a Nazi' bandwagon, it's mindless.
Being very honest in the last ten years I've been doing this I've not had a bad encounter with a veteran yet.
There are bad Ww2 reenactors (as there are WW1) look at this months Best of British magazine-there is a whole gaggle of muppets who base their outfit on something they saw in Allo allo or Dads Army...
But then look at the Khaki Chums, who have drawn huge interest and raised a lot of money over the years.
I don't know about you, but anything that can draw the nations interest away from Beckham et al to remember real heroes is a good thing in my book. There were a fair few reenactors in the BBCs 'From Defeat to Victory' on sunday night.
Just don't lump us all in together....

Kitty- I think that's a fair point and I do see the value, in education of reenactors, not just of the world wars but other periods in history as well. As far as the "Nazi" tag goes, you're right to point out that not all German soldiers were Nazi party members. However, I can only talk about what I've seen and the fact remains that whatever the make up of Waffen SS units were, you're choosing to don uniforms from a massively sensitive era and there's many perfectly valid reasons why some people will find it offensive, some will find it weird. Maybe you see it as your role to challenge these views- well, okay. Personally, it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see why it would others.

I have been to Beltring many times and have seen a wide range of re-enactors, the Home Guard, the Poles, Free French, the Wermacht and the solitary Japanese Chap to name but a few. I am all for re-enacting as it is able to provide a spectacle for the uneducated to see a little bit of what it was like. Some of the secnes and camps etc at Beltring are absolutely fabulous and most informative and the groups should be truly applauded for all their hard work and effort.

I must however, draw the line somewhere and this is where people dress up in SS costumes and in particular as has already been mentioned attire their children in Hitler Youth - really this area of history should most definitely be left in the past, and certainly not re-enacted. Those people are in my opinion a little bit more than odd, and their whole interest in such is too unsavoury for public display.

On a lighter note, why do the majority of German re-enactors I have come across hail from Yorkshire ? Oberlutenant Ramsbottom speaking in a strong Yorkshire accent to Hauptmann Arkwright always cracks me up !!!! (P.S. This is not meant to offend those from the White Rose shire, but it is purely an observation)

ok, i have never seen anyone in the events i have been to who gets offended, infact in one were we had to cover up the ss insignia, many of the public said they didnt like that, and that they werent offended, censoring history is stupid, and hitler youth uniforms, well i can tell you no kid is going to stick on a uniform unless hes interested in that area of history, many kids want to reenact but cant cause they look to young but, hitler youth means they can, there are the odd nut balls, but they are shunned and hated, i do 12thss, which was made up of teenagers as well as older guys, they fought well at caen etc and its a good area for me cause im a teenager, plus the brit and american unit can fight us, and im from northern ireland ,so they aint all from yorkshire, lol

Uncle Bill - did you - or any other pal reading this for that matter - happen to get a photo of the Aussie cavalryman? If so, any chance of putting it up here?

Ciao,
GAC

I subscribe to the ANORAC theory myself. Good harmless fun perhaps but a bit pointless all the same...

Neil

no it isnt point less at all, we educate the public about history, in fact until i saw reenactors and asked them questions i never was much interested in history, museums bored me cause theyre always no touching, now i own my own deact kar98, possibly a smle some time soon, i like reading history books, but if all you do is read books you are an anorak! reenactors make history interesting rather than boring, for instance they way many of you think of the ss, you may have never known about the waffen ss, you would have been like many ill informed mops (members of public) who think, ss+nazi death camp guard, its a great way to meet people who are interested in the same things you are, and of course great fun to!

Goodness where to start...

Well first of all im a reenactor, although we prefer to call it Living History.
And yes you are right, there are many who simply see this as a hobby, some fun, playing soldiers and such.
But there are also those who take it all very serious, who feel they have a duty to educate the public and honour history.
I like to think im one of those.

I reenact a Dutch civilian in ww2, so nothing military.
I spend ages collecting the right paperwork, clothes, etc.
Most of my time at events im involved in discussions with the public, talking with them about the war.
Educating quite a few of them as there are so many misconceptions about the subject.
To me its just like acting in a movie, you take your role serious, everything must be perfect.
I KNOW for a fact that what we have done at events, schools and museums has made an inpact, especially the younger generation is much more interested in us then in reading books or listening to their teacher.

I also reenact the Great war, being a woman you wont see me at the front but in the Netherlands we had set up a Dutch border post.
There I was as a Belgium refugee.
Wearing dirty old clothes, carrying a ton of luggage, a rolled up blanket, etc.
The public was very interested and asked me many questions.

As for the veterans, yes most will get angry at reenactors who dont do it right, who dont take it seriously, who dont look the part.
But so would I!
The veterans I've met, the former resistance members ive spoken too and the countless civilians who lived trough the war all are very very positive about what we do.
They feel what we do keeps the subject alive amongst the younger generations.
They have thanked me for what we do, embarrassing me to the core as we are the ones that should (and do) be thanking them.

There are many reasons to reenact;
love of history, wanting to educate, experience and yes; fun.

I do it because I want to tell others about the subjects I find most interesting and I want them to learn about it, to remember it.
But also I want to experience the past.
Yes of course, what we do doesnt even come close to what it was really like, but its as close to history as you can get, even if its only 000.1% of the real thing.
For instance, ive read about riding bicycles with wooden tires for years, but now I have done it, I have experienced with wartime recipes, ive worn wartime clothing, etc.
No matter how fake those things are, they still help you understand the past a little bit more.
It adds to your knowledge.
And that cant happen enough.

So to conclude, yes there are silly fat old long haired men who just like to play soldiers for fun but there are also serious (reen)ACTORS who take part in Living History.
Just like all ww1 researchers arent all old men with glasses who spend most of their time in the libraries, we too are not all alike!

You will have to excuse Von Papen please ladies and gents, he is relatively new to the hobby (his particular group came about it Northern Ireland last year I believe) and thus his enthusiasm is on over-drive. However his points are valid:

. We educate in a hands on environment that brings ww2 closer to the public.

. Certain groups provide a HJ impression for the younger form of re-enactor - One group to note is the SBG, who I believe Mark was reffering to; the SBG put on a cracking Hitler Jugend impression, the children and teenagers envolved really know their history and are in no way sinister. As VP has said, why should aspects of history be blocked out from public view enless they break laws or are of a graphic nature? Surely by these children teaching future generations about how a whole nation was led blindly into war, they are providing the reason for it not to happen again?

. The Waffen SS were not the boogey men, neither were they all cold hearted killers who butchered women and children. Propper historians who do a depth of research into the second world war are now starting to conclude that there was very little difference between the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht; both had the same basic training, there was little or no kit specialisation (in fact some Wehrmacht units did take vehicles etc from SS pools, because of their "elitist" stature I.E. GD division) and the espris de'corps was similar.


Can I suggest ladies and gents, that if you are outraged by what you see at an event, do not just simply shrugg your shoulders and moan about it on a forum in a dark corner of cyber space. Go up to a re-enactor discuss with him - or her, why they do what they do, why they believe what they are doing should be seen, and what benefit they feel it brings. 99% of the public who come and speak to me at events, leave with a higher opinion of what we do than when they first walked by.

Hey marloes, its liquidshadowmk2 off the wwiireenacting forum (i dont really post much on there),

Some people do just see it as that guys and gals dressed up playing soliders, (if they wanted to that try paintball or airsoft)

Quite a few reenactors are ex-soldiers wanting to experience the army/air force/ navy in a different time period, the equipment and weapons.

Garron

As far as it is for educational purposes, all right for me. I know some re-enactors personally and I know that they are not bearded devils. As long as they do it somewhere on a restricted space or something, we live in a free world...

Further from the rest I absolutely don't like the sight of people walking around in their WW1 uniform on the battlefields, especially not on a public event like a funeral or a day of remembrance. If that's your way of remembering the fallen, fine, than do it somewhere private and please keep in mind that some people might not like the sight of it.

WW1 re-enactors performing 'battle-re-enactment' is, to my opinion, very inapropriate. If you want to feel the thrill of battle I can think of a good way, they will actually pay you for it there! On top of this, re-enactors forming honour guards at ceremonies simply makes my blood boil. That is something that should be restricted to people who have accepted the responsibility that comes with their uniform, such as policemen, firemen and serving soldiers or veterans. The fact that I have never been forced to wear a military uniform is something that my grandfather and great-grandfather fought for. Keeping that in mind, I simply don't understand why people want to wear it just for fun.

The scope of reenacters runs from the worst to the best.
However it seems that the media always picks the morons to talk too.
I have been reenacting the US civil war for 20 years and I have seen much of the worst..and some of the best.
I fit in somewhere in the middle.
I think reenacters help the cause..it gets people interested..and in the end thats what counts.

Dean

I completely agree.
IF at events in the Netherlands German ww2 troops are present, they put up a sign so people can choose to go another way.



I cant agree with myself on this.
One one hand a battle reenacting is indeed inapropriate but on the other hand (if done correctly) it can be impressive and add to the interest of the public.
Its not much different from making a movie or having a play.
Its like that tv show 'The Trench', I felt that was very well done and with a lot of respect.
A battle reenactment can be the same way, but yes, here too there are many who dont take it serious enough.
On the other hand, people have been reenacting battles as entertainment for centuries.
But if you want to do it just for fun (im no saint, I can see the fun in playing soldiers) then do it outside public view, like many do.
Its often the public and the organizers that want the reenactors to set up a battle at public events.



Again, it all depends on how its done.
There are many memorials and ceremonies where reenactors are asked to take part in.
I have done so, Ive felt uncomfortable being there portraying a member of the Resistance, but the public was touched by it and were happy for me to do so.
Even more important, real former resistance members felt the same, they felt what we did was good.
Same goes for the chaps who reenact soldiers from the past.
But our chaps have learned proper drill, proper ceremony etiquette, eventhough some have never been in teh army.
At one memorial our reenactors looked a lot better and did their job much better then the men of the real modern day army that were there as well.
Of course there are plonkers that just show up uninvited, that look like crap and cant even salute properly, yes they shouldnt be there.

And although I understand the feelings people sometimes have, as long as the kids learn from it and as long as the veterans think we are doing a good job, I wont stop.

Hmm, we'll be seeing the SS Das Reich reinactors at Oradour Sur Glane this summer then??

Your point about there being little difference between the Waffen SS and Wermacht rings true when you talk about the war in Russia. 25 million people weren't all killed by the EinsatzGruppen!

Steve

I have some media experience, ive worked for tv and such...

Oh god she is a reenactor and in the media... someone kick her!

Anyway, I can understand the press, a picture of a viking hiding from the rain under a modern umbrella or a Roman soldier with his mobile phone, are just too good not to use!
Also, we all know some impressions are controversial, so a nice photo of some SS soldiers or HJ boys with a nasty text next to the photo suggesting all sorts of neo nazi goingons, also sells a lot better then 'Actors bring history to live', 'amazingly authentic display brings the past closer to children', etc.

I actually find this mindset much more offensive than the actual reenactors. There is not a 'good' SS and 'bad' SS. They were essentially the same organization and most recent historians who do a depth of research are also uncovering the involvement of Wehrmacht and Police units in calculated extermination of civilians as well as the cross transfer of officers from different SS branches, and not just in the Totenkopf division.


My apologies to Chris Baker as this is not the purpose of his hosting this site but I grow weary of this.

This topic does seem to be drifting a bit but anyway...I can't agree with the above statement. I'm pretty well read on the subject, but still can't see how any German SS unit can be anything other than 'political'. The SS came into being as political muscle, and remained that way. Why would there be Waffen SS units fighting at the front alongside Heer units otherwise? They were the armed wing of the Nazi Party.

You can argue it's educational, but can anyone honestly claim that's the reason they do it. It comes down to the fact that you like dressing up as Germans!

Regards
Gavin

Lets not get into this.
I dont think SS were 'just another groups of soldiers', countless reenactors agree.
Its a ongoing discussion among historians and reenactors, either way, I dont think this thread is the right place for it.
We dont even allow SS reenactors at events in my country.

Hi Gavin

The Waffen SS was the armed forces version of the political body of the SS, they acted as seperate entities tied to the same organisation - The Nazi party. That does not however mean that they were all doing the same things. The Waffen SS was supposed to act as competition to the Wehrmacht, the generals and high command were pre-selected National Socialists, whilst the training elements and the men on the ground were initially made up of ex SSVT and Wehrmacht officers/enlisted men who volunteered to train this new fighting force. The Waffen SS went into Poland on horses and trucks whilst the wehrmacht held all the tanks, the SS had to prove through blood, their worth as a fighting force before the Nazi establishment would even start to order them "gucci" equipment such as tanks etc. The Waffen SS were not there to act as commissars or to be the likes of the NKVD, the SS was your political drum master, beating to the sound of National Socialism.

I'm not even a Waffen SS re-enactor and even I can see why people re-enact it. The same as I can see why some people re-enact NKVD....even though they openly admit that the organisation was far worse over 50 years than the SS was in 10

Yes the uniforms have more of an appeal to us than other uniforms do, its a factor I guess in why we re-enact, but its not the sole factor, and journalists and biggots use it to belittle what we do. I guess someone had it right when they said "Its much easier to knockdown other's sandcastles than to build your own".

My policy on this forum is normally to avoid the more obviously contentious threads, and on this one I have thus far restricted myself to requesting a photo of the Australian cavalry re-enactor at the Somme commemorations. As might be gathered from that request, I am not against such representations of military figures from history per se. However, I find some of the statements being made on this thread to be increasingly disturbing, and I wish to make my own position clear in no uncertain terms. Firstly, anyone who knows anything of the history of the years 1933-45 who then goes on to dress their kids in Hitler Youth paraphenalia is, in my humble opinion, a moral bankrupt.

I don't knnow about others, but frankly I've had enough of these aplogists for the SS putting up their sickening pseudo-history here. The SS was the SS - the cutting edge of Nazi racial and territorial policy, whether on the battlefield or in the concentration annd extermination camps. That the SS administered these activities through subdivisions does not take away from the fact that the organisation was a homogenous whole, under the control of Himmler and his minions.

In my view, von papen and woofer are using this thread to whitewash the Waffen SS whom they apparently so enjoy dressing up as.

Just two examples to make it clear to this unsavoury duo that we know our history hereabouts:

von papen wrote: "By 1944 much of the Waffen SS was made up of foreigners; and the camp guards were a completely different part of the SS."

Nonsense! Personnel were interchangeable between the camps and combat units. Indeed a division was formed from camp personnel.

woofer wrote: "The Waffen SS were not the boogey men, neither were they all cold hearted killers who butchered women and children. Propper historians who do a depth of research into the second world war are now starting to conclude that there was very little difference between the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht; both had the same basic training."

Nonsense again! Steve made the excellent and true point that, in fact, comparisons being drawn by historians between the German Army and the SS on the Eastern Front increasingly show that what they had most in common with each other was culpability in war crimes. As Neil put it, there was no such thing as a 'good' and a 'bad' SS, there was just the SS and its repellent ethos. After the war it suited many of the Waffen SS to peddle the line that 'we were soldiers like other soldiers'. This is becoming increasingly less of a get out clause as historians uncover the extent of the involvement of the 'ordinary' German Army in war crimes. Now the wannabe SS claim 'we're just re-enactors like other re-enactors.' Yeah, right.

If anyone wants to know about the Waffen SS's application of it's parent organization's murderous ethos on the battlefield, they need look no further than Hugh Sebag-Montefiore's recent excellent study Dunkirk: Fight to the Last Man. There they will read how, as early as 1940 (before the extermination of the Jews had even begun in the camps), the WAFFEN SS (note the emphasis) were murdering British prisoners of war wholesale as they pressed towards Dunkirk. If these bozos who strut around in Waffen SS uniforms in our country today cannot see how, in light of this, people are outraged by their insensitivity, then any smack in the nose they get from a surviving veteran should make the point more forcefully - and IMHO would be roundly deserved. And I doubt if there's a court in the land which would convict a veteran for taking such direct action!

Now, I hope these people will take the hint and get off this forum with their attempts to re-write history!

Ciao,
GAC

Please bring this discussion back to the original question - enough of the SS stuff, thank you very much. Try to concentrate on WW1.

In my view there is something about reenacting that is just about men dressing up as soldiers. However when such energies are directed towards a real historical and educational purpose then I think it can be considered worthwhile. I have been to a 'reenacted' English Civil War battle which gave an interesting (although somewhat limited) picture of what battles of that time would have looked like. I have heard that some of the American Civil War battle reenactments can be truly spectacular while the reenactors who take part in TV documentaries can also help to provide an image of what a certain time would have looked like.

For instance in the documentary last Sunday (The Somme, Defeat into Victory) and the rather better Channel 4 documentary about the 1st July 1916 (entitled simply The Somme), the reenactors who took part helped to create a powerful and realistic sense of what certain incidents duing the Battle of the Somme looked like. So reenactors can have their uses.
JGM

I have a real problem here. "Living History" I like: when the kids were younger, we used to make a lot of visits to English heritage do's with everything from Vikings/Romans/Civil War/Napoleonics. I have to say I learned a lot (I think the kids did, too), and - particularly - the VMS "Diehard Comapny" (late Victorian military) were excellent.

I don't even mind Great War and WW2 "Living History" (though, like a lot of you, I suspect, the SS bit disturbs me).

Where I do have problems is when I see them appearing in full fig at remembrance events: reversed rifles and so on at war memorials and what have you. Somehow it just doesn't look right. I don't know why; it just doesn't.

Hi all
There is one basic essential missing from the re-enactors play actors world the live battlefield, were your lucky if you come out a live, with all your body parts still in one peace, if you would like to a soldier join the ARMY there are lots of vacancy's. And then you can do as much soldiering as you like then, with a real men & the real enemy who fires back

Hmm... now I'm not a re-enactor and neither do I know any, but perhaps the people that do re-enact don't want to be soldiers. Perhaps they are simply people who go about their interest in history in a different way. Some people chose to spend many hours in dusty archives looking at old documents. Some dig up areas of interest in search of other forms of physical evidence. To me they are just different ways to understand history.

I think people here are getting very carried away along one (perhaps justified, for this forum) thread regarding WW1 re-enactors. But as already noted herein there are people who enact the Viking or Roman way of life (and certainly not restricted to the military side of those cultures either). Looking at the bigger picture I think I side with the historians.

However, I prepared to admit that people dressing their children as Hilter Youth or having an disturbing interest in pretending to be a member of the SS is questionable, but what about the nastier side of the Vikings or the Romans? I guess people see that purely as history whereas the 2 world wars are still too recent to be looked upon with such detached attitudes.

I actually think re-enactors at remembrance services are evocative and if handled correctly and with dignity a welcome addition which, as real survivors become rarer, will probably become more common. Now that might not sit comfortably with all of you out there, but then perhaps your ideas of what goes to make up a 'correct' form of remembrance don't meet with everyone's approval either. I think that perhaps we should all show a little of the tolerance of the ideas of others that so many have fought and died to preserve.

Regards,

Neil.

I have to agree Steve. I can't quite put my finger on why, but it's somehow not in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. I've always been impressed by the way Britain commemorates the dead of both World Wars. The Cenotaph, the graves maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, the village war memorial. All have a simplicity and quiet dignity that is timeless and emotive.

Personally, I think re-enactors are completely out of place here. Serving soldiers and veterans of course, even Boy Scouts and Brownies, but not some one dressed up as something he's not.

Regards
Gavin

I was at Bovington Tank Museum for their "Tank fest" day and while I was walking around the showground, I came across some re enactors, discussing others of their kind and their weaponry, tactics etc. They actualy believed, that were experiencing what their original units experienced! On the other side was the veterans hospitality tent. I tapped one on the shoulder and said, " Try in there, I'm sure you will get the answers you require"! The "not at home look" I received was expected! By the way, I watched a group of WW1 re enactors, march through the Lille gate the other day. Why are most, all fat, old and boreing? The pics I have of Tommy, are young, small, thin and gay ! So, if it is "Living History" then how about it fella's? Also, if it's soldiering you want, try your local army recruiting office, I'm sure they will be of help!