This photograph belonged to my father who died in 1981. He was in the King's Royal Rifle Corp from 1917 to 1919 - I think! This officer saved my dad's life by going over the top in his place - dad was only 16 - he lied about his age as so many did. I long to know who this brave man was, Can any one help at all?

Anne
Welcome to the Forum.

Do you know which battalion this amn and your father served in?

Please post as much info as you can.

He's a Second Lieutenant.

If you could post an enlargement of the cap badge it would help.

All the best with your research.

Stephen

Thank you Stephen for such a fast response. I have my father's Army service record from 1920 to his demob in 1947, but very little prior to then - I guess the early records were lost in WW2. My father was Captain George James Drayton RASC his no. was 17859.

However, on a form B265 (questions put to the Recruit before Enlistment dated March 1920) there is the following - I am not sure of interpretation so I'll copy it as it is written.

question 11 reply states "568205. Rfm.London Regt. Q W R. Also KRR. Corps & TRB. 2 years 3 months Demob 16.12.19."

Sadly he was always reluctant to discuss WW1, saying it was too awful to remember - although he would chat about the last one. He came up through the ranks and got his commission when he was 40. I am very proud of his memory.

The cap badge is the KRRC officers cap badge. This red corded boss is known within the 60th as the "Cherry".

Re the unknown officer. Was he killed? If he was you are in luck, even if he wasn't.

Try and gain access to late WW1 issues of the KRRC Chronicle. Officers probably get an obit, complete with their photo. This was the case in WW2, and I assume would also have been the case in WW1.

Hope this helps.

ps

QWR = Queens Westminster Rifles

Certainly is an officers cord-boss badge of a the Kings Royal Rifle's, but have you noticed something about it? The mouth piece of the horn is facing the wrong direction, as it should actually face to the right, this indicates that the photo may be reversed. The shoulder strap of his "Sam Browne", should also run from his right shoulder to left hip and not left to right.

Graham.

TRB = Training Reserve Battalion.

Graham.

May be the picture has been reversed

Thank you for all this - its great. Yes, the officer was killed. Please how do I access the KRRC Chronicle?

Just a quick suggestion; if you edit the title to include the regiment, it should attract some of the specialists on here and someone may well know who he is.

Worth a go ...

Anne

Try a search of this forum. Someone was asking about the KRRC Chronicle within the past week or two.

You would need to see the KRRC Chronicle for the late WW1 year in question. You could buy a copy second hand or, maybe, see it in a museum or library. However, being as you are not sure of the year in question, the best thing would be if someone who is a member of this forum would be kind enough to look and see if they recognise your officer.

I am sorry to say that I only have the KRRC Chronicles for WW2. However, it looks as if every officer killed in WW2 has an obit, complete with photo. Most of which are full page studio type pics. The KRRC was the regiment to belong to in order to be remembered, as long as you were an officer. The ORs just get their name and date of death.

The phot os definately reversed as the Sam Browne shoulder strap should be over the right shoulder.

Yours aye
OxfordYeoman

So this is how he should look:

Click to view attachment

Jim

Jim,
Perfect.

Graham.

And I gave him a bit of clean-up!

Ian

Thank you He looks so much better! I just need to find someone who has KRRC chronicle for 1917 and 1918 to see if he is listed there, with his photograph.

I really do appreciate all your help - wish I had found this site earlier!

Anne

The Royal Greenjackets Museum in Winchester holds the KRRC Chronicles and may be able to help you. I have found them to be very helpful in the past. They are based at Peninsula Barracks and have a website to browse. i have 2KRRC war records with names of dead officewrs but no photos.

Best of luck.
Mike

Thank you Mike. You are the second person to suggest the RGJ as a possible answer. I will contact them.


Anne

I have no doubt at all that this is a faithful account of a family legend but does it sound quite authentic? I can well imagine a compassionate officer sending the lad to the rear and safety for the time being, but it may be fanciful to say that the officer went in his place. Officers and Privates were not interchangeable. Far more likely that the officer was part of the attack force all along.

You may be correct. I have to say that my father's comments about this officer are some of the very few he ever made about that time of his life. Even then he would not reveal any details of when, where or whom. He said "It was too awful to talk about" (referring to the whole experience of the war) Concerning the officer when I asked who he was he said "He saved my life and lost his. He went in front of me" End of conversation.

Of course I wished I had asked more but I didn't. He went on to serve 33 years and rose through the ranks to be a captain in the RASC. A less fanciful man you could not meet!

I am in the same boat. I left it too late to ask my father about family matters. He never spoke one word to me about his brother Oscar who was killed in Delville Wood. He said almost nothing about it to my mother. I would not even know of Oscar’s existence if my mother had not pointed out his name to me on the local memorial when I was about three years old. Incredibly, that was just about the last time he was mentioned during my father’s lifetime.

Your father’s words suggest a different picture to me; one in which he did take part in the attack. The officer led them out of the trench and was killed by a bullet that would otherwise have hit your father. If this was what happened it explains why your father said the officer had saved his life. If your father had simply been sent out of the battle, he could never have known whether or not his life had been saved because he might have come through the battle without a scratch.

I hope you are able to trace the officer.

Regards,
Clive Maier

Anne

Please keep us posted on the results of your research with the Greenjackets.

Edwin

I read this in pretty much the same way as Clive. One can almost imagine your Father's understandable fear and this Officer saying something along the lines of, '"It'll be alright. Just follow me and do as I do".

He doesn't look too much beyond 16 himself does he?

I also hope that you find out who he is, If you do, please let us know.

I deeply appreciate the help and interest shown by the forum members. I have had a reply to my email from the curator at the RGJ museum, telling me to send the photograph. However, he isn't very hopeful unless I can be more exact about the battlion. I have my dad's service record and am attempting to decipher unfamiliar abreviations! It has to be guess work.

I will of course let people know when I find out who he is. Anne

Don't hesitate to ask for help. I can just about guarantee that someone will explain things if you ask.

Click to view attachment
I have got my son to downsize the page in question. I think this is the relevant one.Does it mean he went to France in April 1918? Thank you Andrew for your interest.

Looks like he joined the 11th Battalion KRRC in April 1918.

Ian

Looks like:

Regimental number 44403 or 44483 on top of form.

Transferred to 11th Kings Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) on 1-4-1918

Joined 11th Battalion KRRC at Havre on 4-4-1918

Pay rise on 10-4-1918

Admitted to "hospital" - 23-10-1918

Admitted to 60th Field Ambulance with P.U.O (Pyrexia of Unknown Origin, a fever of unknown origin...) - 23-10-1918
{60th Field Ambulance were one of the RAMC units attached to 20th Division, of which the 11th KRRC were part}

http://www.1914-1918.net/20div.htm

Admitted to No 12 Stationary Hospital {behind the lines at St Pol.} - 23-10-1918

Rejoined unit - 1-11-1918 {Bearing in mind the brevity of his illness this could have been a bout of "trench-fever"}

Admitted to No. 18 CCS (Casualty Clearing Station) B????? face - 12-2-1919 {18 CCS was a Doullens at this point}

Back to Duty - 18-2-1919

Retained with "H" Corps concentration camp for purpose of demobilisation - 1-2-1919

Transferred to 16th KRRC - 21-4-1919

Transferred to 2/16th (County of London) Battalion TF (Queen's Westminster Rifles) {2nd Line battalion of Queens Westminster Rifles} and given number 568205 - 21-4-1919
{2/16th QWR were part of 30th Division at that point}



Steve.

Nicely narrowed for the RGJ Museum.

An officer of 11th KRRC, killed between April 1918 and the end of the war.

Looking at the form above it does not mention the ASC between his joining the KRRC and his Demob.

Medal card of Drayton, George J
Corps Regiment No Rank
King's Royal Rifle Corps 44403 Private
Army Service Corps EMT/65541 Private

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=2


One wonders where the A.S.C. service fell? Was it post war, and included on his MIC anyway? Possibly so since he was later commissioned in the R.A.S.C.

His Training Reserve Battalion service would have been in the UK prior to his embarkation overseas and therefore not included on his Medal Card.

Steve.

Really appreciate the transcription, thank you. Steve what does A.S.C stand for? and MIC? He enlisted in September 1917 and I realise now he was just 17, not 16 (14,8,1900) the page previous to the one I have posted says he was posted to the 20th Training Reserve Battalion 23.10.17 Posted to 51st (Grad.)Bn KRRC on 16.1.18. The posted page continues on from this. Anne

From The Long, Long Trail (re 20th Div):

The Division was withdrawn after the heavy fighting of the Somme battles, moving on 20th April 1918 to an area south west of Amiens. During the summer months it received many new drafts of men, and from October 1918 it took part in the general advance that resulted in victory.

++

Maybe that narrows it down from say 4 April (his joining the Bn) and until 20 April; or October until 23rd of that month when admitted to hopsital (? 'flu). Still a bit of a needle and haystack job though!

Ian

A.S.C. = Army Service Corps, which I believe became the Royal Army Service Corps very soon after the War.

MIC = Medal Index Card. (We always abbreviate that one, and end up explaining!) These are the cards used by the Army to help in getting medals engraved correctly. These form an "old fashioned" card index (a vast one) to the Medal Roll books which are still held at the National Archives at Kew (though it is doubtful those will give you any more information than you already have).

The previous post that says "Medal Card of ..." is an example of what you can see on the online index of the Card Index (an index of an index, confusing...)

The Medal Cards can give you extra information without referring to the Medal Rolls and can be downloaded for £3.50 at the National Archives website (the link I posted). Having said all that it is possible that this card will to be a bog-standard "pair" MIC stating Victory Medal and British War Medal and no extra information, though it may have his date of Commission mentioned if it was before the cards were produced.

One never knows until one looks, though my feeling is that this card may not add much...

The Training Reserve Battalions were large battalions to which conscripts were sent for general training before being sent onto specific Regimental units, in his case via the 51st (Graduated) Battalion K.R.R.C. before going overseas.

At least the facts backed up what I had surmised!

Steve.

P.S. I'm slightly envious of the fine example of a service record you have got!

Ian

From what you say it could be narrowed down to three weeks, give or take a day.

If they didn't go into action until October: "from October 1918 it took part in the general advance that resulted in victory" and if the soldier went sick on 23rd October.....

Also, you can eliminate Captains and above from any list.

Lastly, even if the RGJ Museum does not have a pic of this man you can obtain a list of "possible suspects" from the War Diary, because officers killed should be named.

Then it might be possible to find an obit, with photo, in local papers or even get a photo from his school or family, and so on.

Beppo,

Yes,

4-20 April 1918

Whenever it commenced action in October -23 Oct 1918.

Almost there, eh?

Ian

4th-20th April 1918 throws up 7 names in 'Officer's Died' of whom one is a Captain. Of the Lt's, one died in German hands, one 'died', three died of wounds. The only KIA is 2 Lt Frederick Bernard Holborow of the 16th Battalion.
The DOW are: Hubert Arthur Cram, Bernard Hodges and Harold Joseph Shaw.
However, none of the above are 11 KRRC. Cram is the only for whom the battalion is not shown.

Only three 2/Lts died in this period. All with additional info, one with MC, but seems to be on a secondary unit. The only other 2/Lt deaths were back in March (4 died).

Total 11th casualties for this period: (all from CWGC)


month/ total/officers

Mar 75 (4 2/Lt., 3 Cpts., 1 Lt.Col)
Apr 21
May 7
Jun 8
Jul 9
Aug 8 (1 2/Lt.)
Sep 6
Oct 11 (1 2/Lt.)
Nov 5 (1 2/Lt.)

Name: BRANKER
Initials: W R
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps
Unit Text: attd. 11th Bn.
Secondary Regiment: Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 11th Bn.
Age: 33
Date of Death: 05/10/1918
Awards: MC
Additional Information: Son of James and Mary Branker, of Paisley; husband of Annie C. Hunter Branker, of 14, Argyll St., Paisley, Renfrewshire.
Casuality Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: I. C. 7.
Cemetery: PROSPECT HILL CEMETERY, GOUY


Name: JOHNSTON, BENJAMIN
Initials: B
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps
Unit Text: 11th Bn.
Age: 31
Date of Death: 03/11/1918
Additional Information: Husband of Annie Johnston, of 27, Campie Gardens, Musselburgh.
Casuality Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: II. B. 1.
Cemetery: POZNAN OLD GARRISON CEMETERY


Name: MAGGS, ERIC WILLIAM BRISTOWE
Initials: E W B
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps
Unit Text: 11th Bn.
Age: 23
Date of Death: 20/08/1918
Additional Information: Son of William Adolphus Maggs and Alice Maude Maggs, of Riversford, Northam, North Devon. Native of London.
Casuality Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: V. E. 6.
Cemetery: SUCRERIE CEMETERY, ABLAIN-ST. NAZAIRE

The only11 KRRC candiadate from 'Officers Died' is 2 Lt. Eric William Bristowe Maggs, KIA, 20/08/18 as named above.

There's nothing in the Official History about the battalion, brigade or division for that day, so I'm out of ideas.

(Incidentally, Officers Died states Johnston as having died 31/11/1918 in German hands. Some discrepancy there.)

Cram is shown as 16th Bn on CWGC.

Ian

On the assumption that the officer was killed in front of your grandad, and from the above input on officers died, I would start with Branker.

Johnston is too late, and Maggs' death in August appears to have been when the Div was out of the line.

However a good look at the Bn war diary will be necessary.

Ian

Sorry - it's not Branker. He was attached to the 11th Sherwood Foresters and was killed in battle near Prospect Hill where he is buried. He also gets mentioned in the battalion history.

Who are we left with?!

Looks about the right age too.

Geoff

Aged 23.

Do we know what the 11th KRRC were doing in August 1918? The Long Long Trail infers that the division was re-drafting until October.

Ian

Fairly quiet month, until near the end. Maggs' death is a bit isolated. Anyone in North Devon? Maggs' photo is sure to be in the local papers.

06/08
Gooderson AW (dow)

20/08
Maggs EWB

24/08
Simms TJ (kia)

27/08
Brann SC (not in SDGW)

28/08
Maidment CJ (dow)
Oak SH (kia)
Peskett M (kia)

30/08
Andrews WL (kia)

Geoff,

Thanks. It does not point to them having gone over the top in August, does it? Perhaps these August victims were casualties whilst in the Bn was in the line.

Ian

And a little bit of colour.

Ian

No does not. The main action, looking at the casualtys seems to be around March-April. However 'going over the top' could be a recce party or something.

Ian,

That's amazing. Bet it would look really good on a high-res version.

We've been assuming that this was an attack. Could it have been simpler? For example, the officer simply muscled ahead in a trench and got picked off by a sniper?

We are faced with quite a few vague leads on this one. Yes, it may indeed not have been a question of going over the top. Also he may not have been 11th Bn but from another, and temporarily attached to the 11th.

It will take a bit of trawling and or quick luck to identify him.

Ian

Ian what a transformation! Wish I could make the photo I have look like that., Well, I have sent off to the Royal Green Jackets - mentioned EWB Maggs just incase it helps. Thank you everyone. Anne