I've been approached about accompanying a group from St John Ambulance on a day trip to the Salient. Rather than the normal big attractions I would like to show them sites with a medical theme and tell them about the process of casualty evacuation at 3rd Ypres.

Do you know if there are any St John Ambulance personnel graves out there that we could visit or any other relevant sites

I wasn't sure where to post this request so Mods please feel free to move it if required

Mick

Mick

There are no St Johns Ambulance war graves in the Salient.

There is only one in France (at Etaples) - all others being in Iraq or India.

Essex Farm? St Julien Dressing Station Cemetery (original burials and then concentration graves)?

Brandhoek New Military Cemetery (Noel Chavasse VC and bar and near the site of the specialist dressing station to which he was evacuated), Noel Chavasse memorial in Brandhoek Churchyard.

The location of the dugout in Wieltje originally used as the RAP and the forward site in the region of Setques farm (east of Wieltje, I can give you the map reference) in the area of which Chavasse set up the dressing station in which he was mortally wounded (see Ann Clayton's book, Chavasse: Double VC). There are, within a couple of hundred metres of the Setques Farm location and easily seen from the road, some German bunkers that broadly match the description given in Ann's book (NB there is NO reason to believe that this is THE bunker but one of them is uncannily similar to the one described in a source quoted by Ann Clayton). Ann Clayton's book would give excellent background info on medical practice in relation to the fighting and out of the line; the Liverpool Scottish spent a lot of time in the Salient. It is possible to find approximately the location of the dugout in Wieltje where Chavasse would have originally had his aid post before moving it forward to follow the fighting on 31st July 1917

You can identify the location of the Culvert on the Menin Road (though I am sure the present Culvert will be the product of the Ieper Engineering Department) used by Chavasse as his aid post for the Liverpool Scottish during the First Action at Bellewaarde 16th June 1915 (aka Battle of Hooge) and relate it to the front line.

If you want some more detail of this and more precise locations (actually almost a contradiction as the Setques Farm location is approximate), e-mail me and I can put them on the 1:25000 map

"A Medico's Luck in the War" by Colonel David Rorie (OStJ) has a chapter giving an account of his time as OC of a 51st (Highland) Division Field Ambulance whan it was employed at Corps MDS at Gwalia Farm during 3rd Ypres

In Flanders Fields has a medical section and I think there is something either at Hooge Crater or at the Paschendaele Experience although a museum might be a bit ambitious within the time limitations of a day trip from Kent

Ian

Thanks chaps. I did reply yesterday but for some reason it hasn't appeared.

Terry, could you give me the details of the person at Etaples please

Ian, did you get my message?

Mick

Hello Michael,
Is this of any help? The 130th (St.John) Field Ambulance RAMC was raised in Wales in 1914 entirely from members of the St.John Ambulance Brigade. The unit had their unique subtitle, plus in the early days the men were allowed to wear their StJAB belts & belt plates, and wore the StJAB circular cloth badges on the lower left arm uniform cuff, even in khaki.

They were a sub-unit of the 38th (Welsh) Division, and accompanied that body overseas in December 1915. For a fuller history of the unit (& good uniform/ambulance pictures) see C.J.Parry, The Story of the Order of St.John in the Principality of Wales, Vol 1 1877-1945, published by the Hospitallers' Club of Wales, Cardiff (or maybe Newport), 1996. ISBN 0 907143 02 4 if you want to make a Library order.

Chapter 6 deals with the Great War. In brief, & germane to your Salient visit, the 38th Division arrived there in late July 1916 after the Mametz fighting. The Chapter contains a synopsis of their activities, mainly based on the official War Diary. The 130th arrived at Proven (major supply, medical & billeting centre behind the Salient) on 24 August 1916, and took over the existing medical facilities, laundries, baths & divisional rest centres. They supported the Division in its front-line duties until mid December, when the 38th moved back to reserve at Herzeele.

From 26 December the FA established a partial presence on the Canal Bank north of Ypres, the whole unit moving there in February 1917. Trench raids by the 38th provided their more noteworthy customers from then till June, when the Division withdrew to St.Hilaire to prepare for the opening of "Third Ypres". On 21 July an advance party of the FA was established at Sefton Camp, then moved to a bivouac camp at Coppernolle 27 July. When the offensive opened against Pilkem Ridge on 31 July, the FA was attached to 113 Brigade and was deluged with casualties in the following days (notably the dying Welsh soldier-poet, Hedd Wyn).

On 6 August the Division was pulled back to Proven where a hospital was established at Priory Camp. It earned several MMs and a DCM for this period. The 130th still had Advanced Dressing Stations at Fusilier Farm and Sussex Farm, and on the return of the Division to the line it took over the a new ADS at Cement House (alias Burnt Farm) near the Pilkem-Langemarck road on 20 August. The concrete blockhouse they used, shared with an RFA Aid Post, still stands today in a farmyard next to Cement House War Cemetery. It had been a German ADS, the larger room holding max. 16 stretcher cases and the smaller (an admission or dressing room) 2 stretcher cases at a time. Two further MMs were earned by the FA before it moved back to Proven on 9 September 1917. The Division finally left the Salient for the Armentieres sector two days later.

I know of one War Grave in the area from the 130th FA, namely Private 48583 Thomas Jones. Born Amlwch, Anglesey, he moved to South Wales and was a timber-man in the coal mines as well as a StJAB member. Resident of Pontycymmer, Glamorgan, when he enlisted at Cardiff. Died of wounds (GSW chest and abdomen) at 46th CCS on 7 May 1917 aged 31, and buried in Mendinghem Military Cemetery, Proven, in Plot II Row C Grave 14. Though not mentioned in the book, I seem to remember reading that Jones was amongst several casualties when a shell hit a car or ambulance, but he was the only fatality. I'll try to attach his picture if I can.

PS- Anyone who reads the full text in Parry's volume and finds errors or omissions can blame me - I did the main editing for this chapter!
Regards,
LST_164

Click to view attachment

Mick

Name: BAIN, ANNIE WATSON
Initials: A W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Nursing Sister
Regiment/Service: St. John's Ambulance Brigade
Unit Text: St. John's Ambulance Brigade Hospital
Age: 30
Date of Death: 01/06/1918
Additional information: Order of St John. Daughter of James and Helen Bain, of Harrismith, O.F.S., South Africa.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XXVIII. M. 3.
Cemetery: ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY

Terry, thanks for the info

LST_164, yes that's very helpful - thank you. Is your interest in them a geographical one or are you researching medical units?

Mick

Mick

Adding to the information Terry posted, Sister Annie Watson Bain OStJ MID was killed on 1/6/18 during an air raid. I also have three RAMC personnel listed who were killed in the same air raid and buried at Estaples Military Cemetery.

During 22/7/17 - 31/5/18 The St.John Ambulance Brigade Hosptial was sited at Estaples. It was said to be the best designed, and the best equiped, military hospital in France. It moved to Trouville in Oct 18 until Feb 1919. The hospital itself was established on 2/3/15.
I note from your first post that the tour is taking place on the Salient but I have more info on the hospital if it will help.


Adding to LST_164's post, 130 (St John) Field Ambulance was raised by the St. Davids Centre of the St. John Ambulance Brigade as No 2 Field Ambulance by Herbert Lewis. Commanded by Lt. Col. J E Davis DSO RAMC> Re-numbered on 27th March 1915.

'C/O 1914 -1919: Lt-Col John Edward Henry DAVIES., DSO 1918, Kt of Grace OStJ, MID, MRCS, LRCP, LSA, JP. [ex-Cap VB R. Welsh Fus.]'

I have one other grave listed as serving with the 130 (St John) Fld. Amb.

Dozinghem Cemetery, Westvleteren, Belgium:
79109 Pte Herbert Charles BILLS. Died of wounds 3/9/17 aged 25.

They were involved in the Battles of Ypres 31 July - 6 Aug and 19 Aug - 11 Sept. Also the Battle of Pilkhem Ridge 31 July - 2 Aug. They then went back to the Somme.

i hope this extra bit of information also helps

Barbara

Hello Mick !

For detailed information about the Venerable Order of St John and the St John Ambulance Brigade during the First World War (to serve as a background), I would highly recommend reading THE KNIGHTS OF ST JOHN IN THE BRITISH EMPIRE by E.J. King. There are also two pictures of the hospital at Etaples - one of which shows the scene after the bombing.

Both the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (based in Rome), and the Johanniter, also provided hospitaller services during the First World War. I can provide a couple of pictures of the former's hospital trains, operated by their Italian and Bohemian/Austrian branches, should you be interested.

Regards

Wayne

From E.J. King - pages 199 and 200 :

But of all the work that was done by the Knights of St. John during the great War, nothing appeals more closely to the sentiment and tradition of their Order than the direct relief that was given to the sick and wounded in their hospitals. The most important of these was the Hospital at Etaples, of which we are told that 'those who have inspected it are unstinted in their praise, and that it is considered one of the best of its type in France'. This hospital owed its inception to the St. John Ambulance Brigade, by whose name it was known; it was staffed by the Brigade and was commanded by their Chief Commissioner, Colonel Sir James Clark, Knight of Justice of the Order. The Physician-in-Charge was Lieut.-Colonel C. J. Trimble, Knight of Grace and Commissioner of No. 4 District, and the Surgeon-in-Charge was Lieut.-Colonel S. M. Smith, Knight of Grace.

The Hospital was classified as a Base Clearing Hospital; it was opened for the reception of wounded on September 8th, 1915, and was one of the most up-to-date in existance, comprising Pathological, X-ray, Dental, and Electro-cardiograph Departments. It consisted of two small wards, each of 20 beds, for officers, and 16 large wards, each of 30 beds, for other ranks. Of the latter, 11 wards were reserved for surgical cases and the remainder for medical cases, the officers' wards taking both classes.

The Hospital, which was of huts, therefore consisted of 520 beds, but during the operations on the Somme in 1916 and additionalo 64 beds were brought into use, and during the heavy fighting in the spring of 1918, t5he total number of beds was increased from 520 to 744, the officers' accommodation being brought up to 88 beds. His Royal Highness the Grand Prior inspected the Hospital during 1916, and on September 17th, 1917, it was visited by H.R.H. Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyle. During 1917 the Chapel was erected with the aid of funds specially collected for the purpose by Lady Perrott, and was dedicated on November 16th by the Bishop of New Westminster. Colonel Sir James Clark relinquished command of the Hospital in July 1916, and was succeeded by Colonel C. J. Trimble, the Physician-in-Charge, who remained in command until the Hospital closed down two-and-a-half years later.


A WARD IN THE HOSPITAL AT ETAPLES

From E.J. King pages 200 and 201 :

In May, 1918, occurred those incidents so disgraceful to the honour of the German Army which perhaps caused more indignation in England than anything else during the war, the bombing of the hospitals at Etaples. The reasons for this action, which was grossly offensive to the conscience of the civilized world, are not even yet clearly understood. Presumably it was not due to sheer brutality, as was at one time supposed. In that case it must have formed part of a deliberate policy of reprisals for some imaginary or accidental injury, or else it must have been due to honest accident, owing to certain Army depots being in that neighbourhood. But the latter is an explanation extremely difficult, if not impossible, to beieve. Whatever the causes may have been, on the night of May 19th German aircraft arrived over the Hospital and dropped a few bombs, doing a certaqin amount of damage. But this was only a foretaste of the wrath to come, and eleven days later, on the night of May 31st, a most determined attack with bombs and machine-guns was made upon the buildings. One ward received a direct hit and was blown to pieces, six wards were reduced to ruins, and three others were severely damaged. Sister Baines, four orderlies, and eleven patients were killed outright, whilst two doctors, five sisters, and many orderlies and patients were wounded.

It is impossible to speek too highly of the way in which the Hospital Staff carried out their duties during that terrible night; no more can be said than that it was worthy of the highest traditions of the Venerable Oder of St. John of Jerusalem. In recognition of the gallantry of their conduct, His Royal Highness the Grand Prior conferred the gold medal of the Order for saving life upon Lieut.-Colonel C. J. Trimble, of whom it was said that during the bombardments 'he was constantly passing through the various departments and entrenchments of the Hospital, encouraging the patients and personnel and directing operations. It was largely due to the fact that he displayed such coolness and disregard for his personal safety that so many escaped injury and that no panic occurred'. The silver medal was conferred upon two of the medical officers, Captain Frederick Hall and Captain William Wilson, 'in recognition of their gallantry, devotion to duty and saving life on the occasion of air raids on the St. John Ambulance Brigade Hospital at Etaples'. The bronze medal was conferred for the same reasons upon three medical officers, nine other ranks, and one patient.

Captain J. Van S. Taylor
Captain W. E. Coe
Captain A. D. Brunwin
Sergt. J. Baron
Corp. J. E. Johnson
Pte. F. H. Pike
Pte. H. J. Brownbill
Pte. F. Robbins
Pte. A. Nickells
Pte. W. Ellis
Pte. H. N. Parker
Pte. H. Mould
Gunner Alfred Lee, a patient.

As a result of the air raids, the military authorities ordered the removal of the Hospital from Etaples to Trouville, or rather the heights above the village of Deauville. The demolition for the purpose of removal began in the middle of June, the cost being met out of a fund raised as a result of a special appeal by the Director of the Ambulance Department of the Order. Most valuable assistance was rendered during the removal by Mr. F. S. Phillips, a Donat of the Order. The newly erected Hospital received its first convoy of wounded on October 23rd, 1918, and on January 20th, 1919, it was demobilized. The memory of the work that was done by their Hospital during the Great War will always be recalled with pride by the Knights of St. John, whilst the manner in which their duties were carried out by the Hospital Staff is best recorded in the concluding words of Colonel Trimble's Farewell Order, 'You have, by your self-denial and zeal, individually and collectively fulfilled in no uncertain way the mottoes of the ancient Order of St. John, 'pro fide' and 'pro utilitate hominum'


THE HOSPITAL AT ETAPLES AFTER THE GERMAN BOMBARDMENT

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentHi Michael & Barbara -
Michael - as regards your question, my interest in 130th (St.John) Field Ambulance RAMC was based on their Welsh connections. I was approached by Mr C J Parry to check his information on the unit as part of his wider StJAB work (ran to 2 sizeable volumes) and ended up rewriting the relevant chapter and adding medical/casevac details from various readily available sources, in order to provide a background to their war service and inform the more general readership.

Hence my statement that I could probably be shot down in flames on some points by those with a more specialised knowledge of RAMC organisation and practice! But to be fair he'd laid his hands on most of the unit war diary, which helped me a great deal, and some really good photos of personnel and ambulances etc. I attach from this set a couple of shots showing use of the StJAB cuff badge and their square belt-plate.

Barbara - thanks for your response.
The casualty H C BILLS is certainly from the 130th FA, but on checking I find he was from Kent, so may not have been an original (and therefore not an ex-StJAB member) recruit. His later regimental number also suggests this.

I'm sorry to say that the volume I quoted has no info on his demise. I have a feeling that maybe my "edition" was re-edited before publication? I do have my original typescript and the copy war diary SOMEWHERE, but several house moves have left me uncertain of their exact whereabouts in my attic...

Regards,
LST_164

Hi LST_164 & Mick

Thanks for pointing out that Pte H C Bills may not be an ex-StJAB member. I'm sure your right as you have studied in depth, I have no more information on him.

I must admit I'm finding it hard trying to work out this numbering lark. I've now found references to

61267 Pte Reginald Charles BELL SJAB kia 20/5/18 aged 23
61303 Pte John McCONWAY SJAB dow 20/5/18 Aged 25
61308 Pte John SCOTT SJAB killed [air raid] 1/6/18 age 37
61227 Sgt Charles YOUNG SJAB killed [air raid] 1/6/18 age 33
then 69236 Pte Harry CLARKE SJAB kia 20/5/18 ag 23
then 48589 Pte Isaac ROBERTS SJAB killed 1/6/18 [air raid] aged 38
all buried Estaple Military Cemetery.

For 130th Fld Amb -

Distinquished Conduct Medal:
48579 Staff/Sgt (act Sgt-Maj) G T Davis (Pontardawe) [LG 3 Sep 1919]
For consistent good work and devotion to duty. He has served with field ambulance for three and a half years, and has been acting Sgt-Major for the last nine months. On many occasions he has led his stretcher bearers through areas swept by enemy fire. In doing so he has always displayed marked courage. He did exceptionally good work during the fighting of July/August 1917, when his coolness and steadiness under shell fire inspired confidence in the men under him, and encouraged them to carry on until all the wounded were successfully evacuated.

This would have been during the Battle of Ypres, so maybe of interest to the group.

Barbara

Barbara,
I was interested to see your list of casualties. They are listed by the CWGC site as RAMC but with SJAB as a sub-unit, which is probably why Terry's initial search didn't pick them up.

The RAMC regt. numbers of some of the men are quite close together, suggesting that they enlisted (?as a body of SJAB men) not far apart in time and were kept together as part of a specific RAMC unit. Other regt number or RAMC specialists on the Forum can probably advise you better than I. The practice did exist however of central authorities granting a "block" of soldiers' identification numbers to special or "locally" raised formations, so I would expect the RAMC numbers of the original 130th FA men to be very close together.

Once they began to be detached to other duties, became casualties or otherwise departed, their places would be filled by RAMC men from elsewhere whose numbers would obviously bear no relation to the unit or to the original series.

Some of these units were put together, then split up before they ever got abroad. A case in point was the "Welsh Students Company RAMC", which was formed in 1916 from theological students who till then had refused to become "fighting" soldiers, but were prepared to enlist in advance of conscription, if they could serve together and perform humanitarian work. Having been embodied, however, the formation was quickly dispersed amongst the RAMC generally. Many of these men actually ended up on the Salonika Front, and casualties can be roughly identified by reference to their number block.

Honours and awards & other casualties to the 130th FA are (usually) noted in CJ Parry's book mentioned earlier in the thread. Has good detailled accounts of the struggle to deal with casualties at Mametz Wood July 1916.

As regards Parry's book, it really is full of good photos & info about the 130th FA and other SJAB activities in Wales and the Hospitals etc in France. I note that back in 1997 it was being offered direct by the Hospitallers' Club of Wales, Cardiff, at a very reasonable £20 for two sizeable hardback volumes covering 1877-1945/1946-1995, whereas bookshops then retailed them at £34. Maybe they still have copies for sale? Postage very much extra!! I would add more photos of the distinctive Welsh SJAB ambulances etc but I don't want to infringe copyright too much.

I do have a copy of Who's Who in Wales, 1921, which gives biographical details about a wide range of people, including civilian medical/RAMC/SJAB/BRCS etc, men and women, so if there's anyone specific you need looking up I'll be glad to do so.

Cheers,
LST_164

There are seven RAMC men whose unit is listed by CWGC as 'St John'...

BELL, REGINALD CHARLES
PHILLIPS, IEUAN
McCONWAY, JOHN
SCOTT, JOHN
YOUNG, CHARLES
CLARK, H
ROBERTS, ISAAC

Thanks LST_164 for your advise on numbering. I am aware that the different Territorial Units all started from no 1 so many RAMC personnel had the same numbering, hence the new numbering system in 1917. The regulars would be a different story though I quess, I'm adding to a database now so I will look out for that.

I'm definatley interested in buying C J Parry's book, I will see if I can locate it.

Thanks also for the offer of look ups in Who's Who in Wales 1921, I have a copy of Who was Who 1916 -1928, as well as Rolls of Honour and many reference books in connection with the Medical Services so am happy to return the favour. One reference book which may be of interest to you if you don't already have it is Welsh Army Corps 1914 - 1919.


Terry

I note from your post above that I am missing PHILLIPS IEUAN from my list, which I can now add. Thats twice you helped me in one day, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Barbara

Your detailed input to this thread is much appreciated. It's also nice to see that it has created some extra dialogue for the enthusiasts.

Although the tour will be in the Salient, the story of the hospital at Etaples will have to be told. In fact I'm thinking of putting a powerpoint presentation to deliver before we go.

Wayne, it would be great if you could post the pictures of the hospital trains.

Just a thought, how about a Pals Medical Tour of the Western Front next year? I'm realising that it is a fascinating subject.

Thanks everyone

Hello Mick !

Happy to oblige. Here is a very brief background which might help towards a better understanding of the international character of this institution.

The Order of St John (known today as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta), from its humble beginnings during the 11th century, considered hospitaller duties to be one of its main areas of operation. This mission has been maintained throughout its history as it was forced to move headquarters from the Holy Land to Cyprus (1291 - 1310), Rhodes (1310 - 1523), Malta (1530 - 1798) and Rome (1834 - present).

For purposes of administration, the Order was divided into eight main groups : France, Provence, Auvergne, Castille (Leon & Portugal), Aragon, England, Italy and Germany. All other areas were assigned to one of these - i.e. England also comprised Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

It is also important to point out that the Venerable Order had orginally started off as a Victorian attempt to revive the English branch of the Order, which had been suppressed by Henry VIII. However, things did not go according to plan and the organisation became a British Order of Chivalry (which in turn founded the St John Ambulance).

During the First World War, both the French and Italian branches provided assistance to the allied cause. These included hospital trains and field hospitals. The branches located behind German lines, provided like services for the combattants on that side.

The following five pictures are from the book by Rudolf Prokopowski ORDRE SOUVERAIN ET MILITAIRE JEROSOLYMITAIN DE MALTE, published in 1950.

Regards

Wayne

Page 229 :

HOSPITAL TRAIN OF THE KNIGHT'S ASSOCIATION OF THE TONGUE OF ITALY

Page 229 :

INTERIOR OF A RAILWAY CARRIAGE OF THE ASSOCIATION, WITH FIELD ALTAR.

Page 249 :

A TRAIN OF THE GRAND PRIORY OF BOHEMIA AND AUSTRIA, WITH GRAND MASTER THUN-HOHENSTEIN.

Page 249 :

MILITARY SANITARY SERVICE OF THE GRAND PRIORY OF BOHEMIA AND AUSTRIA.

Page 264 :

MILITARY SANITARY SERVICE OFFICERS OF THE RHENISH-WESTPHALIAN ASSOCIATION - BAVARIAN COMMITTEE.

Wayne

Thanks for these

Mick,

You're welcome. If there is anything else I can help with, please do not hesitate to let me know.

Regards

Wayne

hello Ian,

It's been some time since you responded to the initial request but I'm trying to pinpoint the position of Setques Farm in relation to Wieltje, Mousetrap Farm and the Steenbeck. Any information you can provide would be really useful. If you have a map that shows this position I'd be doubly grateful.


Harry