The memorial at Felinheli (Portdinorwig), North Wales bears the name of Captain W E Jones.

A document at the Bangor University Archives (no signature and no date) provides the information that he was William Evans Jones, 2nd RWF and that he was an Army Chaplain killed on Service in France 9th Oct 1918.

Is there a SDGW for Army Chaplains?

If he was killed in action how rare would this be?

I've looked in the Regimental Records, The War the Infantry Knew and also in Duty Done but allthough he is mentioned on numerous occasions there is nothing about his demise. I will look up the local papers next visit to the Archives but meanwhile does anyone know what happened to Rev William E Jones?


Hywyn

http://www.freewebs.com/denbob/gwbmlate.JPG

I would be quite sure that a lot of chaplains were killed in service. Father Willie Doyle of 16th Irish Div being an example which springs to mind.
The link above relates to a Chaplain MC and his citation would indicate that many of more these men risked life and limb than they are ever given credit for.

Des

Proper link! Scroll down to last page.

http://www.freewebs.com/denbob/1918.htm

Des

Thanks for that.
Thinking about it since posting it's quite obvious that, given that they did a lot of work at the front, there would be a number of casualties.
I wondert if there is an Army Chaplains 'expert' here on the Forum.

Hywyn

Hello Hywyn,
according to a website on Army Chaplains, over 300 hundred were killed in action in both WWI and II. It didn't give the names or denominations, as the chaplains ministered many faiths, but it could be an interesting piece of research for someone.

Regards,
Dave

163 named on SDGW

says your man was killed in action 8/10/18 attached to 2nd Bn RWF

Mick

Mick and Dave

Thanks a lot.
That's quite a number. Presumably volunteers. Brave men the lot of them putting themselves in harms way at the front like that ( like the RAMC)

As I said I wouldn't be surprised if an 'expert' doesn't come along soon.

Hywyn

http://www.freewebs.com/denbob/1917continued.htm

another two useful mentions of chaplains close to the action. Scroll to P 156 see Rfn Daniel Dunbar and award of MC to Canon A. E Ross.

Darn and another good mention on P 155!!

Oh and just remembered that Ross gets bar to MC at the start of 1918 pages!

from my version OSND: the impossible takes a little longer

Grumpy

Thanks a lot. I knew that my choice of words in the title would attract your attention <grin>

Can I impose by asking which village it was that they were attacking.

Hywyn

Des

Thanks for the further info. These were indeed brave men as evidenced by Rev Jones' actions.


Hywyn

Villers Outreaux

Great, thanks a lot.

Hywyn

CWGC lists 373 chaplains who died in WW1 - though this will include deaths from illness and accident.

Hello again Hywyn,
A check on the SDGW figures reveals that (according to this source) 62 Chaplains were killed in action; 32 died of wounds; and 2 were "killed" out of the total. Interestingly your man was recorded as "Evans-Jones".

The 2 "killed" (apparently a separate category to Died of Wounds(Gas) and Died through enemy action at sea - both nil returns) were Rev. Donald Fraser DSO, on 2 June 1918 and Rev. Edgar Noel Moore MC attached 20th Liverpool Regt. on 5 Jany 1918.

One Anglesey Chaplain died of wounds - a Rev. Thomas Jasper Shovel, from Linkinhorne, Cornwall, who had charge of the English Wesleyan Methodist chapel in Holyhead until he left in 1916. He was aged 34 when he DOW France & Flanders 5 October 1918, attached to the 2/2nd Wessex Field Ambulance RAMC. Buried Louverval Military Cemetery, Doignies, France.

He wasn't mentioned on the Holyhead War Memorial, or in the local Book of Honour - I only picked him up via a copy of the book Holyhead in the Great War, whose Roll of war dead is considerably larger than that on the memorial!

I thought your casualty had a memorial plaque in the parish church at Aberaeron, Ceredigion, having seen this a couple of times; but attaching him to a Yorkshire unit. On reflection, perhaps this was a different chaplain? If you know anyone going past on the coast road, perhaps they'd look in?
Regards,
Clive

Dear All,
I'm confused about the estimates I came across for both WWI and II, and the figures offered by Clive and Terry. Can anyone explain please?

Thanks,
Dave

Estimates are just that - estimates. They vary, no doubt, due to different criteria being used or varying source information.

The CWGC figure of 373 is an accurate total of the number of Commonwealth chaplains qualifying for commemoration by CWGC due to their deaths in WW1. This will include those dying of all causes anywhere in the world up to the cut-off date of 31.08.21.

SDGW is not a complete record of all deaths. It omits many especially those who died of illness etc, those who died in the UK and almost all deaths after 1918 including post-discharge deaths.

SPENCE Alexander Rev. Padre 36th Dept. Army Chaplains. Died of wounds as POW 31st March 1918. Father Alexander of Brookfield, Portglenone. Buried Roye New Brit. Cem. Somme. Comm. Ahoghill Church of Ireland.

Here's one case in point

Thanks for the explanation and example Gentlemen.

Regards,
Dave

Folks,
can I draw your attention to today's thread "Their Name Liveth For Evermore"?
LST_164

Pals should note that the CWGC total in addition to including Commonwealth and Dominion Chaplains almost certainly includes a number of Royal Navy Chaplains.

It certainly does.

There are twenty-four naval chaplains listed by CWGC as dying in WW1.

Thank you all for replying to this thread.

Clive
The Rev Jones in Aberaeron seems to be William Edgar Jones (No 95 ) on the list on the thread you linked to. What is interesting is that 'my' William Evans Jones is on that list twice!! Once in the E section and once in the Jones. ( There are only two Jones W E on CWGC for Army Chaplains- 'mine' and Rev William Edgar above) I'm going to post on there now.

Hywyn

Hi Terry,

Can you check this pse.

My list : The Reverends :
H A W Back
G A Grieg
D R Milner
W L Ford
B Gwydir
J D Dathain
W Hall
I M Lewis
G B Robinson
I M Lewis
A H G Creed
E G V Robson
A S O Sweet
C A Walton
P G Alexander
C W Lydall
G H Hewetson
G S Kewney
H D Dixon-Wright
G A Browning
W M Le Patourel
G W F Morgan
S J Phelan
A H J Pitt
W F Webber

The 2 Rev W E Jones on the CWGC Database. (note that in 'Cross of Sacrifice p.166, these two chaplains records have been confused).

Name: JONES, THE REV. W. E.
Initials: W E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Chaplain 4th Class
Regiment/Service: Army Chaplains' Department
Secondary Regiment: Royal Welsh Fusiliers
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 2nd Bn.
Age: 24
Date of Death: 08/10/1918
Additional information: The Rev. W. E. Son of Eliza Evans Jones, of Rowen, Portdinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late David Jones.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. E. 2.
Cemetery: PROSPECT HILL CEMETERY, GOUY


JONES, THE REV. WILLIAM EDGAR
Initials: W E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Chaplain 4th Class
Regiment/Service: Army Chaplains' Department
Secondary Regiment: Yorkshire Regiment
Secondary Unit Text: attd. 9th Bn
Age: 30
Date of Death: 24/10/1918
Additional information: Son of Mrs. A. Jones, of Garth, Aberayron, Cardiganshire, and the late Mr. J. B. Jones.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: II. D. 25.
Cemetery: ROISEL COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION

Audax

We agree on the naval list (I forgot to add one column!). Post amended

It could be argued that W E Jones` action was in the Lt Col H Jones class - admirable, but he shouldn`t have been there. One wonders whether the battalion CO, Lt Col Norman, knew he was going with the first wave, whether he carried a weapon and whether his local chaplain boss approved. Whatever, his men must have been most impressed by him. And so am I! I think I`m right in saying this was the final breakthrough of the Hindenburg system. Phil B

I have noticed a number of chaplains buried in various cemeteries in France and Belgium. However, I haven't yet found any that are more than 4th class! This hardly seems a very high distinction. What did they have to do to get up to the dizzy heights of being third class?
Incidentally, Andre Coillot has a cap badge for a NZEF Jewish Chaplain. How many of those could there have been?
Bruce

A 1915 Army List shows 32 Chaplains 1st class ranking as colonels, 7 2nd class ranking as Lt Cols, 42 3rd class ranking as majors and about 965 4th class ranking as captain. Phil B

Phil
I'm also impressed that he would have gone with the first wave when he clearly need not do so- whatever the reason that he went.

Bruce.

I don't know if you've seen the rank structure (Class etc)posted by Audax at post no 8 of this thread
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=53895&st=0


Hywyn

A Chaplain 1st Class -( Colonel) who died not in action, but on active service :

BLAKEWAY, Chaplain 1st Class, The Rev. PHILIP JOHN THOMAS, Army Chaplains' Department attd. Middlesex Hussars. 16th June 1915. Age 50. Son of Philip and Maria Blakeway; husband of Sybil Blakeway, of The Cottage, Halmaker, Chichester.

He died of Heart failure in Ismailia, Egypt. See de Ruvigny's Roll of Honour for his biographical note.

A

There is of course the Chaplain VC

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rev. Theodore Bayley Hardy, VC, DSO, MC (October 20, 1863 in Southernhay, Exeter - October 18, 1918) was an English recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest and most prestigious award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces. In addition to the VC, Hardy had been awarded the Military Cross and the Distinguished Service Order, making him one of the most decorated non-combatants of the First World War.

He was 54 years old, and a Padre in the Army Chaplains' Department, British Army, T/Chaplain to the Forces, 4th Class attached to 8th Battalion, The Lincolnshire Regiment during the First World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 5, 25, and 27 April 1918 near Bucquoy and east of Gommecourt, France, The Reverend Theodore Hardy showed most conspicuous bravery, tending the wounded under very heavy fire, absolutely regardless of his personal safety. Once he helped to bring in a wounded officer from 400 yards beyond the front line. Then, when an enemy shell exploded in one of our posts and several men were buried, he immediately went, under heavy fire, and managed to dig two of them out. On a third occasion he went out with a sergeant and brought in a wounded man who was lying within 10 yards of a German pillbox. King George V personally pinned the VC to Hardy's chest.

Despite pleas from his superiors both in the military and in religious life, and indeed an offer of a post in England from the King himself, Hardy would not leave the front.

He was wounded in action and died a week later in Rouen, France, on 18 October 1918.

He was buried at St. Sever Cemetery Extension, Rouen, France, in block S, plot V, row J, grave 1. There are memorials to Hardy at Carlisle Cathedral and in his old church at Hutton Roof in Cumbria.

His medals are displayed at The Museum of Army Chaplaincy (Amport, Hampshire, England).

My bit:
His daughter was in the VAD and apparently spent the evening before his investiture by the King cleaning her father's boots. She had the pleasure of seeing her father invested, particularly poignant I expect because his wife had died some years before.
David

Chaplains in New Zealand the statistics are interesting:

Nominal Rolls for WW1 contain 140 chaplains.

Decorations: CMG: 1, OBE: 3; MBE: 2, MC: 14; MID: 12; Brought to the notice of Secretary of State for war for valuable services at Home (England) towards a successful conclusion to the war: 10; and Serbian Order of the White Eagle 5th class (with swords): 1. A number of chaplains represented in these numbers were multiple recipients of awards.

Eight died i.e.

KIA:

11/86 William Grant (Presbyterian) Hill 60 Gallipoli, 28 August 1915
6/1215 James Joseph McMenamin (RC) Messines, 8 June 1917
41286 Guy Spencer Bryan-Brown (C of E) Passchendaele, 4 Oct 1917
48144 Alexander Allen (Methodist) Somme, 8 May 1918


DOW:

13/655 Patrick Dore, MC (RC) wounded Gallipoli 22 August 1915; died Auckland NZ 15 July 1918


Died as a result of an accident on active service:

70779 Cecil Alfred Mallett (C of E) France, 30 Sept 1918

Died of sickness:

42884 Frederick Rands (Methodist) Cologne, Germany, 14 Feb 1919


Died as a direct result of war service:

8/307A John Aldred Luxford, CMG (Methodist) Auckland NZ, 28 Jan 1921

Source: Men of Faith and Courage The Official History of New Zealand’s Army Chaplains by J Bryant Haigh (1983 The Word Publishers Ltd)


Zack

STRENGH OF THE ARMY CHAPLAINS’ DEPARTMENT
SOURCE: The War Office - Statistical Abstract of Information Regarding the Armies at Home and Abroad 1914-1920 (June 1920)

My original question was 'Is this rare'

My thanks to all who have so far contributed to the thread.

Studying the replies given has certainly opened my eyes to the work of this Department and I never imagined that there would be so many as is evidenced in Audaxs' post 33 ( these presumably being British Army and so therefore there being many many more from all the other countries)

It is quite obvious that the religious outlook during the War was different to that of today and it is comforting to see that this important aspect of Servicemens lives was being well and truly looked after by such courageous people.



Hywyn

Hywyn,

Here's another one for you.

Thomas Jasper SHOVEL
Chaplain 4th Class
Royal Army Chaplains Department
Attached to the 2/2nd Wessex Field Ambulance
Died Of Wounds on the 5th October 1918 aged 34

Thomas was born on the 2nd August 1884, the son of Thomas and Ellen Shovel of Upton Cross, Linkinhorne in Cornwall. He was ordained in July 1912 after which he worked in the Hitchin & Stevenage area under Reverend John Pellow. Reverend Shovell lived in Green Street, Stevenage and joined the Royal Army Chaplains Department on the 16th January 1918 as a Chaplain 4th Class (Captain). After a short introduction to Army life the Reverend Shovell embarked from Folkestone on the 29th January 1918 for France where he was attached to the 2/2 Wessex Field Ambulance on the Western Front. Thomas received the princely sum of 10 shillings a day for this work. He died on the 5th October 1918 from shrapnel wounds received in the field. His name is amongst those that are not recorded on the Stevenage War Memorial.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards

PAUL J.

Paul

Thanks for that.

If you see Clives post No 14 the Rev Shovel is mentioned in a book about Holyhead, Anglesey. It seems he is not mentioned on the 'home ' memorial in either town.

Hywyn

Hi

I think you will find that Chaplains still play a very important role in the armed forces - a retired General once said to me that you find very few atheists in the front line!

Keith

Keith

I doubt whether anyone could disagree with either yours or the Generals' view.

Hywyn

Paul
Further to my last. At least the Rev Shovel is commemorated on the Memorial kindly posted by Audax on this thread
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=53895&st=0

I've posted a thread asking if any Cornish Pal can find out if he is on the Linkinhorne memorial

Hywyn

Thanks to Dave (Heritage Plus) on the other thread for the info that there is a T Shovel on the Upton Memorial in Linkinhorne Parish.
There is only one T Shovel on CWGC and that is the Rev Shovel and only one T Shovel on MIR

I can now change this to insofar as he is commemorated on his 'home' memorial.


Hywyn

Rev T J Shovel was commemorated in the Upton Cross Methodist Chapel, which was part of the Liskeard and Looe Methodist Circuit. The chapel closed sometime in the 1980s. Is the Memorial still in situ?

T J Shovel had a 2 relatives still living in 1970s. The Reverend Cloudesly Shovel and Mr T Shovel. Both were elderly then. He also had a sister; Mrs Hender who used to worship at the Upton Cross Chapel.

Paul J and Hywyn,
Thanks for bringing up the late Rev. Jasper T.Shovel ACD, died 1918 - coincidentally, I have been given lots of info about him just this last week or so by Kath, including a picture of the Linkinhorne War Memorial on which he is named.

According to her sources, he was born at that place, a farmer's eldest son (father was Chairman of the Liskeard Union Board of Guardians), and (according to "Hills Arrangement 1969 edn., Methodist Ministers and Probationers who have Died in the Work") was ordained to the Wesleyan Methodist ministry in 1908. In The Holyhead Chronicle I found frequent mentions of him in charge of the English Wes.Meth. Chapel in Holyhead from at least August 1914 until March 1916 when he was said to be shortly departing for Preston (?!).

She also found a Times obituary for him (he was named in the Fallen Officers List on 15 October 1918). This stated that he was "killed on October 6 (sic)...while walking with a medical officer of the field ambulance". It went on to say he had been in the Wesleyan Ministry for 13 years (?an error), and that he had offered his services as a Chaplain at the outbreak of War, but had not been accepted until early in 1918. He was apparently at home on leave in August before returning to France on 8 Sept 1918.

It went on, "A younger brother, Lieutenant E.G.Shovel, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, is a journalist, and was in the London office of the Western Morning News before joining the Army." He wasn't killed, but sadly the only other SHOVEL on the CWGC lists for either War was Jasper's niece by another brother - Hazel Mary Shovel, ATS, died 1944 and buried Rilla Mill Wesleyan Chapelyard, Cornwall.

As I said on a previous occasion, he was named in the book Holyhead and the Great War but is not on the local memorial - though maybe he was on one in the English Methodist Chapel there.
Paul, what are the sources for his time in Stevenage?
LST_164

Click to view attachment

Mate,

If i may add, the AIF lost a number of Clergyman also.

But we lost the most when these men because of the limited postions as padre's in the AIF joinned as Privete soldiers

A number of these Pte soldiers were later prom to Capt padre as the the war went on and then meet their deaths then.

These men served in ALHR's during the war,

BERGIN Michael H. Rev Capt (KIA)
HUGHES George Thomas 201 L/Cpl (killed as Pte soldier on Anzac)
DUNBAR William James 1889 Pte (prom Capt Padre KIA)

Cheers

S.B

Hi,
Just a further fragment on Rev. JASPER SHOVEL (DOW 1918):

The Holyhead Chronicle of 11 August 1916 p.3 records his leaving presentation, and states he had been pastor of the Methodist Chapel in the town for 3 years. He was also said to be returning to his native Cornwall prior to taking up the new work in Preston.

Either he never got to Lancashire but diverted to Stevenage 1916-18, or he was in the latter place before 1913. Or maybe he was elsewhere (?Preston) between Aug. 1916 & January 1918. Paul J. - any comments re the source you've used on him?

Regards
LST_164

Looks if the people who run this site have a photo of Rev Shovel : http://www.ww1photos.com/ArmyChaplains.html - but you have to pay...

Many thanks, Audax - I haven't come across this site before, but will certainly bear it in mind for the future.

I tried to see what it might be, but it seems that the picture (& others) are "forthcoming" and should be available "in due course". It does say that photos are out of copyright & free for personal use, but we'll see...

Regards,
LST_164

Hwyn,

You might be interested to read the new information provided by RAB on concering the death of Rev W E Jones to be found here: Did chaplains receive training?

There were 4 Chaplains from Tipperary who died in ww1. There was another who was reported in the papers as having died in Gallipoli but he did not and was discharged back to 'civilian' life in 1918.
Regards.
Tom

It is really not too surprising that the overwhelming majority of chaplain casualties in the war were Fourth Class - the higher up the grade the chaplains were invariably involved in administration and to be found at Divisional, Corps and Army level (and beyond).
As I understand it, the establishment of chaplains in the modern army was fairly recently increased (ie in the last couple of years), despite the fall in size of the Regular Army.