Chatting to Teddy at the Ulster Tower Cafe last week, he mentioned the growing problem of theft of cemetery registers. Worst of all was the large-scale removal of registers from the Thiepval Memorial. Came across an example myself in Newfoundland Memorial Park - Hunter's Cemetery had no register but a note apologised that theft had led to no register being kept there.

Is this widespread?

What kind of person behaves in such a manner? Should I take off my rose-tinted specs?

Ken

Believe it's been going on for quite a number of years now and wouldn't surprise me if someone hasn't just about got a full run of them or they're making their way to Ebay. To be honest nothing surprises me these days, just look at the amount of dug up stuff you find at Militaria fairs, even Crimean and South African battlefields have been turned over.

Graham.

It does seem to be on the increase, very sad. Especially where if you want a complete register they are easily available. But there are also some strange goings on...earlier this year me and my wife while out for a walk came across the registers to Serre No1 in the ditch just before the French cemetery.

Mick

The theft of registers has been happening for years but in this day and age, with the CWGC records being online, I can't see any excuse for their continuing disappearance.

If it's a growing problem then I can't offer an explanation - souvenier hunters or folk that hope that they can make a quick buck on e-bay?

Only compensation is that the genuine folk massively outnumber the sadly selfish ones! Makes you wonder who buys the stuff that's put on sale....

Regards

Ken

That's pretty unspeakable!

Hope you weren't walking along the main road, Mick. Nearly got wiped out last week by a pair of lorries when I tried to photograph the new memorial erected by the No Man's Land lads!

Regards

Ken

Ermmmm....i do, but the registers I'm bidding for and just won come from a reliable source. Just got both the Ancre and Bazentin cemetery registers for 16 quid.

Mick

that really is in a dodgy site. It looks great but hope its stays in good nick with the lorries and winter mud etc. Actually cycling along there is even more exciting!

Mick

The registers being stolen are almost always the computer produced type and not the old original printed version often seen for sale on Ebay.

Mick,
Weren't all the surplus registers from CWGC bought up a few years ago by a WFA member and offered for sale at about £3.50 each? It was in one of our 'Stand-To' mag's if my memory is correct, perhaps there may be some left, rather than pay £16.00 for two.

Graham.

I accept I'm stupid and just love the old grey ones. And if there i are any of the old grey Somme registers still going for £3.50 I'd bite your hand off if i haven't got them.

Mick

I took over the stock of registers from CWGC when they were about to dump them in 2000 - that is the announcement I think you remember. I collected them all personally by van from Maidenhead!

My first post on Chris' old forum was about this rescue.

I have sold most over the years and very few are now left in my possession - apart from my personal complete set of about 1500 registers.

It wouldn't be so bad if the lorries didn't regularly shed beets or mangel wurzels! Anyone would think it was a battlefield!!

Ken

Oops! Didn't mean to cast aspersions (or anything else for that matter!)

Ken

Yet it still sticks in the throat - or am I just being old-fashioned?

Ken

Didn't think you had casted an aspertion, by the way what do you do with a mangel wurzel, Ive never seen them on the vegetable shelves in M&S.

Mick

I was informed that some people have even been known to steal the actual cemetery signs themselves,and some of the Original Swords on Crosses of sacrifice have also been Taken..is this True do you think or maybe an Urban Myth ???.

The swords are often stolen in some countries for their scrap value.

CWGC often replaces these with a plastic type material.

Feed them to the livestock.... I think. By the way, where's the M & S in Auchonvillers?!!

Ken

I'm (almost) speechless. Morality can plumb some pretty murky depths!

Ken

Ken

No excuse but this is usually in very poor third world countries.

Turn left out of Avril's, pass Carphone warehouse, WH Smith and Oxfam, and if you get as far as Ratner's, you've gone too far!
Bruce
LOL

sometimes it feels that the back of the car and the kitchen is an annex of M&S.

You would have thought with the ease of access to CWGC would prevent it happening.

Mick

I've just found this thread, but are people stealing the books that visitors leave comments in, when they have vistited a particular cemetery or grave ?

Mick D

Mick

No. It is the cemetery register generally being stolen though the Visitor's Book is sometimes defaced.

This is not an ideal sollution, but Cemeteries plans are on the CWGC site, list of casualties can be founded on my web site.
I have created a Word file for each.

Just ask me.

Pierre

JUST BEEN READING COMMENTS,I JUST THINK IT IS WRONG, THERE SEEMS NO RESPECT FOR THE DEAD
VERY UPSETTING FOR THE VISITORS WHO WISH TO TRACE RELATIVES. PATRICK

To be honest i don't think there are many who rely on the books to identify a resting place. But they are invaluable when walking round cemeteries to build a picture of the men sharing the cemetery with 'your man' or just browsing.

Mick

Bit late now I know, but I have only just come across this thread. I too have just purchased on Ebay Etaples Military Cemetery Register - the first part - overseas troops. It is the genuine article. I didn't realise that they could be stolen and openly put up for auction. (Damn cheek) How niaive am I then? Unfortunately, I have no idea of its provenance. I assumed that this was an original copy produced for the open market at the same time as the register was produced for the cemetery.

(A very subdued Wargrave lass)

Don't worry. It will be the real thing.

There cemetery registers are now usually the computer produced versions - not the old printed ones. Also, the cemetery registers tend to be well thumbed and often marked by visitors.

The vast majority of registers were sold on the open market and to relatives.

I dont think anyone has produced any evidence that they are stolen and sold on an auction site...its easy to tell the modern, recently stolen ones anyway ....another urban myth?

Mick

I went to Cite Bonjean Cemetery in Armentiers last weekend as I was passing and knew a Quilliam was buried there, Unfortunatly the Register starting p - z was missing first half of the alphabet was there. So I had to walk every row until I found my man. Just inside the Cemetery Entrance were numerous pop bottles dog ends and rubbish left by who knows. I would have picked it all up but there was not even a bin in the street to put it in.

I purchased all the registers for the Naval and Helles Memorials direct from Commonwealth War Graves Commission which probably works out cheaper than expensive bay!

Paul - the estate close to this cemetery has got increasingly 'rough' in the past decade or so, sadly. I have taken a number of groups here, where we have disturbed young lovers amongst the headstones, found the register and visitors book burnt, and beer bottles tossed all over the place. Thankfully this is generally pretty rare still.

CWGC stopped selling printed registers several years ago though you can still order computer print-outs of any cemetery you wish.

Early January,I was at London Rd.cem for the 1st time & the book was missing.
1st time I've seen that in 37 yrs.

I have just returned from a visit to Niederzwerhen Cemetery and found the Cemetery List and Visitors Book intact and no sign of vandalism there. I attempted to photograph all headstones but a lot may not be considered up to standard expected by our friends compiling the Memorial War grave photo archive.As a novice I needed a reference to put my work in soime sort of order so I photographed every page (92) of the listings and made myself a rough book to check against my photos. I can not believe the CWGC would mind regarding any sort of copyright

I noticed the visitors book was probably over 75% signed by German Visitors with the occasional English/U.S entry such as "Nice Grass" and " F--k the War " to spoil it.Most were in the spirit of their visit.The Cemetery is fairly remote and if in Britain would no doubt have unsavoury visitors but due credit to the people of Kassel they still seem fairly fairy tale in their daily way of life like the Brothers Grimm who lived there.Incidentally I could find no reference to Niederzwerhen in the new CWGC "Rememberence" Book just out? Sorry I have drifted off subject.

Can I ask a question which I hope isn't too stupid? What are these registers, please? What information do they have? And if they are identifiable as stolen, how can they get sold on an auction site?

Thanks.

looks like the registers will have to be laminated and bound securly into a metal folder screwed into the table! Even then i bet the morons will try and unscrew it! There are plenty of shops/museums selling souvenir relics churned up from the fields without having to steal something which is important to the visitors. The visitors books are like all visitors books anywhere in that idiots will write something that is totally unapropriate in them. I do like looking at them to see what people have written, sometimes a snippet of a story that you wish to read more fully about a soldier at peace in the cemetry. I have seen swear words and vehement things written but the grave stones are more poignant and telling than anything an idiot can write in those books.

Max

The registers reproduce the information given on the CWGC website for each cemetery in booklet form. Most CWGC cemeteries have a box in a wall in which the register is kept along with a visitors' book. CWGC has always kept a list of the casualties on-site at its cemeteries for use by visitors.

These registers used to be printed works but these are now usually replaced by a computer produced version. The registers were also produced for sale by CWGC to relatives and to the general public. The sale of printed registers by CWGC stopped in 2001 but computer produced volumes are still available from them upon request. Therefore there are tens of thousands of these registers in public hands and are often to be found legitimally for sale on Ebay and by booksellers etc. There is nothing sinister of unusual about that.

Unfortunately, some people steal the registers from the cemetery box for their own use. Being charitable, perhaps they do not realise that these are available from CWGC. The copies kept in the boxes are usually very dog-eared and not very suitable for selling on Ebay to any serious collector.

The old printed registers were worthy works in their own right and good copies are sought after. The computer produced versions have no real value and can be regenerated at the touch of a button. A few of the older versions can still be found in some cemeteries but these have now mainly been replaced by the computer produced booklets.

Those that steal them are probably the same people who deface copies with their own scrawlings or who put inane or offensive comments in the visitors' books!

there are generally a few to be found on abebooks...all those that ive purchased from them appear not to be from cemeteries. you can usually tell if they have been in the damp and handled a few times. in fact they a quite cheap. so stealing them to sell doesnt seem that viable.

i wouldnt imagine there are many of the older, grey covered, copies left in cemeteries now. the current ones all clearly state do not remove. I don't know what the answer is, i have mentioned before that i once found the Serre registers in the ditch alongside the road, who on earth would do that???

Mick

I will add to that, I have bought a few off of that auction site and they appear to be privately purchased as well.

Mick

In a round-about and not very articulate way, I think the writer of the comment is saying 'Thanks for the effort and dedication that goes into the care of this cemetery'.

Thanks for the info Terry and Mick.

This is another grim thread.

I believe I posted on this thread some time ago and my post disappered. The point I made was as long as people will pay for originals the theft will continue to supply....economic rule of supply and demand! I mean no offence to anyone but it is a simple rule of life.

TT

There are no original ones left. the ones in the cemeteries are the same as those you purchase from CWGC except the ones in the cemeteries ask you not to remove them. So in effect they are being stolen for the sake of the price of a couple of pints.

Mick

As a Police Officer, I know that in a criminals mind that value is enough to warrant the theft !

Mick D

I think people are getting carried away in thinking these registers are stolen for monetary gain on any large scale and it is one of those urban myths.

They are all marked making them obviously stolen and I have never seen such a marked copy for sale anywhere (and I have seen many for sale!). Nor are they usually in a saleable condition having been subjected to the rigours of the weather and many visitors thumbing through them.

They are stolen for the personal use of the thief.

Thousands of genuine copies of original registers are available through the book trade and elsewhere and so the vast majority (if not all) for sale are quite legitimate.

I agree. I collect registers and have never come across any that have indicated they have been stolen. In fact i have just today received the Chatham Memorial registers from a bookseller, all perfect condition and about a fiver per book.

Mick

For my two pennies worth I think that some folk will simply take anything thats not fixed to a very large heavy object.

Why? Because they dont give it a second thought. Simple as that.

The registers probably end up in the bin at home.

Stupid kids most likely

As said in this thread before, this is nothing new.

I have just been reading some old Rifle Brigade Journals where they have made trips to the battlefields and a recurring theme in these is that:-

"Unfortunately in every cemetery visited, the book containing the details of those buried in it was missing, so the Battalions of the men concerned could not be traced, as this information is not given on the headstones."

Rifle Brigade Association Journal, December 1947.

Andy