During the period of occupation of France & Belgium what happened or who maintained the British and Commonwealth Memorials and cemeteries ?.

Where they looked after or simply left alone ?.

It might seem odd but I am very curious as to how the Germans viewed these.

At least some of the IWGC groundstaff remained at their posts. There is a story of a garnder at a cemetary on the Somme successfully hiding fugitive Allied aircrew in his tool-shed. I can't recall his name, unfortunately.

I have seen a number of Great War cemeteries that include WW2 graves. The one at Vlamertinge, where my GGGrandfather is buried, includes 5 BEF (I think) burials from the retreat to Dunkirk.

Another thread here on the forum has photos (kindly posted by Aurel Sercu) of Hitler viewing the Mening gate, which I understand suffered some minor damage during World War 2. So at least one famous German Great War veteran was curious about Allied memorials.

I haven't heard of deliberate abuse of Allied memorials of cemeteries during the German occupation of France and Belgium, but others might know of some examples. Of course, a degree of neglect was inevitable, and I suspect that the grass wass rather long by the time the Commission returned after the war!

Regards,

Ste

The cemeteries were essentially abandoned to nature during WW2. The Germans did not generally deliberatly damage them or the memorials but some were damaged during fighting.

However, there were some courageous souls who did continue to maintain the cemeteries to the best of their ability. Some of these were IWGC staff although most had escaped to UK and some unfortunately disappeared into labour camps. Also local people kept cemeteries tidy in some areas with tacit German agreement.

Some of these cemeteries also contained WW1 German troops and this may have contributed to their being left alone.

When IWGC got back after the war, the job was largely one of renovation rather than rebuilding - for which they were very thankful as they had to set about building WW2 cemeteries at the same time.

The occupying forces in general left the cemeteries alone but did blow up the Memorial to 418 th Regt who were victims of the first gas attack at Steenstart on 8th May 1941.
Aye
Malcolm

They also blew up the Aussie at Mt St Quentin near Peronne and the monument of Alsatian sandstone at COmpiegne but numbered pieces took them to Germany where French recovered it and you see it today.

Hi Everyone

Thanks for the quick answers, I had suspected that the Germans basically left everything alone, I have relatives at Le Touret and Thiepval and wanted to know that they had been left in peace.

There was some descration of allied memorials in WW2. The classic example was one removed from the forest at Compiegne and, of course, the famous "railway carriage" was removed from the clearing where the armistice was signed The clearing itself was "cleared" save that Foch's statue was left to gaze over Hitler's retribution for November 1918.

I think you will also find that a number of French memorials were damaged by German fire, though whether this was deliberate as opposed to gratuitous I am not sure. Visitors to Arras need only look at the French memorial in front of the railway station.

I thought I read somewhere, but I maybe wrong so don't quote me!! that the German high command told there troops not to damage cemeteries and I thought there where one or two very severe punishments on those who neglected those instructions

I'm not surprised they did this Paul. I may be wrong as I can't locate the photo but I think the statue depicted an Australian soldier standing on and bayonetting a German Eagle.
Not the kind of image they would want to leave standing.

That's true Andrew and also true of the one at Compiegne which had a Prussian Eagle bayoneted. Well it's bayonetted again but the replacement Ozzie one is much milder.

I have an original photo of Merville CWGC from 1940, when the war swept over France; my father took it when invading; so to speak about 2-3 weeks into the occupation: the headstones look pretty messy as if within the last 1 to 2 years the maintenance was not - let's say - too enthusiastic by those who should be responsible in times of prewar/peace

There is an interesting story about Serre Road No 2 cemetery during WW2. The CWGC gardener Mr Leach was left behind in 1940 when the other staff were evacuated. The cemetery contained 2 German graves and the Germans gave Mr Leach a bicycle so he could keep maintaining the graves. He lived at the time in Beaumont Hamel.
Mr Leach became involved in the organisation that helped Allied airmen escape from France. He hid over 40 airmen in the potting shed at the cemetery and after the War was decorated by both Britain and the USA.
Supposedly true but I am sure CWGC would confirm or deny this.

German troops also destroyed a French memorial to the XXX Corps (if I remember right), located on the Moreuil-Demuin road, on the slopes above the former place and near the wood where Gordon Flowerdew won his VC in 1918. The memorial was rebuilt after the war, and bears a plaque telling of its destruction.

There is a picture of a French Memorial in 13 Years After, Will R Bird, at Proyart? Will check spelling tonight unless someone knows. Looks very big an arc.Is it still there? Am trying to remember if I have seen it, thanks.

I posted a picture some time ago, under the category 'Western Front', showing most likely Bedford House a few months after the liberation. in 1944. The picture shows a lot of devastation, and a pile of cracked headstones. The picture was taken by Herbert Tomson, IWGC gardener. I'm not sure what caused the damage though. The headstones look overall quite derty, the trees and plants need a big cleanup, but the grass seems to have been mawn.

I'm quite sure Tyne Cot was taken care of by the local city workers of Passendale or Zonnebeke. All the IWGC-gardeners that did not get away were imprisoned, although it seems some exeptions were made, like for Irish gardeners.

regards,

Bert.

The memorial I mentioned yesterday that's pictured in the Bird book is/was at Proyart, do not know where that is but the other picture on the page was Rancourt so presume it's near there. It was a very large arch with a statue in the open space. It must be gone now. Any one know anything?

For a very interesting read about the CWGC may I suggest the book called 'The unending vigil' by Philip Longworth. I found it to be a fascinating history of the CWGC. It may still be available from the CWGC ?

Yes it is still available.

Bob.

Paul (G)
Last time I went there, the Proyart memorial was there, it's a smaller Arc De Triomphe, with a Poilu under the arch. There used to be 2 guns as well, not sure if they are there now. Proyart isn't far from Bray sur Somme.

Regards, Michelle


(PS my hair isn't blue, like my avatar, just dark brown with lots of grey)

Thanks much Michelle, I had said I thought I had seen this but just was not sure. WIll take a look at a map tonight and see if I can find this place.

I have a photo of the memorial to the 1st Australian Tunneling Co. The plaque shows bullet holes received by German soldiers during WW2. You can see this on my website or just click here.

Ryan

Ryan,
I can clearly see : these are definitive British bullet holes

Some kind of inspector clueso eh? I suggest you go and tell Tony Holt that one...

Ryan,
the point I want you to understand is: wherever is war, it doesn't make halt just because of a cemetery! Cemeteries are part of the landscape and no warrior thinks ethic when it comes to "you or me". They are protected but....maybe they are German bullet holes, so what? My Grandfather had to fight Commonwealth troops ON Hebuterne cemetery - I bet a lot of bullet holes. By the way, there were a lot of bomb holes on WW II cemeteries in Hamburg, Cologne, Bremen, Berlin, Dresden and and and. You got my point?

Sure, I just don't see why you felt you had to make it. The discussion was about cemeteries etc during WW2 and I was just pointing out the fact I had been to Hill 60 and had a photo should anyone want to see it showing the bullet holes reportedly put there by alledged retreating Germans. Nothing more political than that my friend.

Sorry, I'm a bit late with a reply.

The situation varied dramatically depending on the local commander.

In some places the cemeteries were more or less abandoned during the occupation with the old gardeners being forbidden to do anything. More common was that the gardeners were allowed to carry on with general maintenance and in at least one place (can't remember where) the commander gave orders that the regimental mowing machine was to be made available whenever the gardeners required it!

In contrast, in some places the SS actually went around German cemeteries ripping out Jewish headstones. These have now been replaced ands I am told (but I can't be definitive) that that is the reason why in most cemeteries the Jeiwsh graves have a stone headstone whereas the others have a metal cross.

As far as I am aware, the US cemeteries were left alone.

Dear Healdav,

I found your posting quite interesting, and I wondered where you got the info about IWGC gardeners staying on their posts.
Out of my own research, I know that every British gardener living in Ypres who did not manage to get away was imprisoned in a German lager (where they lived a fairly good live). I studied the city registers, and found no exeptions. The only exeptions being two little British girls (who live in maidenhead today), who lost track of their parents during the fled, and were given house arrest and were taken care of by their flemish neigbours. One of their other schoolmates from the Eton memorial school, who joined the French resistance, worked out a plan to get them to spain, but when the moment had come and he tried to make contact, the girls were too terrified and slammed the door when they saw him, without even asking what he was there for. The resistance man became overall commander of the IWGC-cemeteries staff in the East after the war. Evenually , him and the girls met up two years ago in Ypres, where he was finally able to tell them the purpose of his visit in 1941.
Another British boy stayed behind as his father was taken to a camp. He kept on causing trouble in school against German-minded teachers, and was eventually repatriated to Britain, where, I believe, he joined the Royal Navy at the end of the war. He still lives in Ypres today.

Clearly it depended very much on the regional commander, like you told. I heard the story about the British gardener hiding airmen in his cemetery from different sources, so definitly people stayed on post.

Interesting stuff for some research I should think

Bert.

I didn't say that it was British staff who carried on working. I was simply told by a Belgian that 'the staff' was allowed to carry on sometimes. I took this to mean Belgians, and maybe other local people who helped maintain them - perhaps as a form of resistance.

Healdav,

I see what you mean. The most distinct feature of the pre-WW2 IWGC-staff in Belgium was, however, that it was only made up by British. There were no Belgians working for the IWGC. There might have been a few expetions, but they couldn't have been more than let's say 5 or 10 persons. Only in very desolate spots in France did local people help out. But you are quite right that the cemeteries were taken care off, possibly by local communal-staff.

regards,

Bert.