I apologize but I realize that there is already some overlap amongst the topics in this strand and that what I may suggest may already have been suggested etc....

Are there not LEGAL remedies regarding the respect for the dead in most if not ALL European countries?

Are there not LEGAL remedies regarding the respect for protected historical sites?

One of the problems is that much of the western front was and now IS in still semi- if not isolated rural areas so that immediate and large number of voices are NOT heard quickly enough. Thus developers, speculators, etc...knowledgable and experienced enough especially locally or regionally can very very quickly devestate large tracts. Farmers themselves can be bought if enough cash or goods are forthcoming especially with an aging population in Europe and elsewhere. Souvenir hunters, scavengers, eBayer potential vendors etc...are just the vultures who feed on the carion of semi-abandoned lands.

Surely if a large collective of European lawyers could pool resources and effectively lobby using current laws (enforcement of same perhaps by revisions of penalties in such laws)then the most harmful effects might be avoided or greatly diminished. Perhaps I am wishful thinking or overly idealistic but my understanding of Europe generally is that it has moved much closer to being a European Community in reality and not just political theory etc....

I hope the above l.

John
Toronto, CANADA

YES.

But much DEPENDS on just exactly WHAT you wish them to ACHIEVE.

then there is the cost of policing, as mentioned previously you could designate most of the area a protected war grave site as there are still missing, like some shipwrecks are declared but unless you put big fences and barricades around you cant keep people out. but then ramblers complain, as do farmers and the green parties spoilt views..

Considering that 'war sites' covers about 90% of the territory of the continent, something has to give somewhere.

In an hour's drive from me I can take you to 1870, 1914-18, 1939-45, 1684, and umpteen other wars all on sites that are mixed up together.

I even know of one cross roads where there are memorials to all those wars.

If some battlefield somewhere was not built on we would all be living in a rather tall building on stilts (so as to do the least damage).

Oh, yes and I can take you to two WW2 resistance sites within 200 metres of my home, not to mention the Napoleon site a kilometre away.

Would you tell us where the X roads is (or should that be 'are'? ). Healdav?

Cheers

Chris

Realistically all those previoius wars had nowhere near the intensive logistical let alone battlefield areas of ww1 so that is a far fetched figure of 90 per cent of the land as being of prime military historical significance. However we are still left with what do you preserve if you must priortize?

Battlefield sites of major battles?
Battlefield sites of minor battles?
Battlefield sites dear to a significant number of your country's current population?
Trench lines that are the best preserved but not necessarily the most significant?
Communicaiton,support lines and trenches?
Command headquarters?
Special types of fortifications such as pill boxes, gun emplacements, etc...?
and on and on!

John

Not far from Mars la Tour. Basically, head north towards Pont à Mousson and you will fid them. There are markers on the Michelin maps.

Not to mention that some forts were used in different wars, so if you exclude one war, do you exclude the bits that were used in the next?

Ahoj!
I live in Warsaw - after the Warsaw uprising, with 200,000 civilian casualties (mostly murdered by various German formations, Wermacht included) and 30-50,000 Home Army fighters dead, there would not be a place to erect a house in an 8 kilometer radius from the city center.
Borys

Noted. Many thanks.

Chris

John

I most certainly respect your views and understand your sentiment, but we cannot go around making museums out of other peoples countries, whatever the motivation.

"are just the vultures who feed on the carion of semi-abandoned lands. "

Where is this semi-abandoned land.

Andy

Real estate and developers amongst others MIGHT tell you a little (if they think they can sell YOU such semi-abandoned) lands! You have misread my statements though. We cannot make museums out of vast tracts of land (what about the population explosion?) BUT surely we can try to reasonably (spoken like the true western education rationalistic historian!) prioritize WHAT we do try to realistically preserve.
John

Have read this sort of thing on a number of other threads.

And it always comes down to ‘you can’t go around buying another country's land’ or ‘how would the French react if you bought their land?’

Eh?

I have a house in France, thanks. I didn’t take it on the point of a bayonet but paid for it. Get on quite well with the locals too. In fact quite a number of other Brits have property over there as well. Some of whom are quite well known on this site.

So the fact is, if you have the money and the owner wishes to sell - you can buy it. If all the owners of High Wood (I’m told there are a number) wish to sell then they’ll take your Euros as much as anyone else’s.

If you have the cash you could buy anything. I don’t know, perhaps a mine crater or Theipval wood or… has that been done before? (Must have used Euros then?)

No the real question is how do you raise the money? And if you did, what would you buy?

Do you have a list and as you raise the cash buy them?
Or do you raise the cash and only buy when an important site is threatened?

I have my own view. But please stop with the French or Belgians won’t like it if we give them money, that’s just tosh.

Who decides what to preserve and thus what someone at any given time considers historically valuable or significant? We all know that that there are thousands multiplied many times of shipwrecks around the British Isles many of which would according to current British shipwreck legislation be of national significance but they are NOT located or if known have already been pillaged or destroyed by modern wreckers. I do NOT have simple or even basic answers say as to which western front ww1 battlefields should be preserved or which parts, etc.... I thought I would start this thread to elicit answers from persons who have far more experience, who live in the areas affected, and who have an abiding interest in such preservation (or for that matter are against it). The laws of supply and demand in capitalist economies indeed in most urbanized countries have already witnessed the wholesale destruction of historical inner cities hearts and historical architecture. It doesn't take an Einstein cranium to figure out that rural "wasteland" or fallow land etc....which comprises by far most of the western front is wide open to speculators and anyone with as you know the cash.
John

Unfortunately John, as with any collective, I feel it would be difficult to decide 'what' and 'when' to save. Also an undertaking like you describe would rely on a pooling of resources(money) and once again the collective nature of such things gives differing opinions as to what is and isn't worth buying. (A sad fact of the current idea of Supporters Trusts owning their football clubs is, no one can agree and the clubs is left in limbo. Unfortunately from that the clubs thus owned are not doing too well at present. My local club toyed with this idea , but the club, I hate to say it is better off in the hands of one man.)
The running of things by committee is fraught with problems and very beaurocratic. So, I think, will any such scheme to pool together and save historic sites be at a disadvantage.
The advantage thus lies with the more 'focused' developer who goes after what they want and has more control over the finances they command.

1-0 win over Bradford yesterday gives us 6 points from the last 2 games. So good new year.

One man is OK as long as it isn't Michael Knighton or his spawn.

Your focus on committees is somewhat off the mark though arguably not much! Clearly if I am implying that organized political action is necessary to save unpreserved and/or what is already endangered preserved areas of the Western Front then committees inevitably would arise due to the democratic process.
Ironically mass citizen armies fighting to officially and ostensibly to preserve freedom and liberty suffering mass casualties have their resting places ignored disturbed and disrespected by the power that fuels western liberal democracies: money! Imagine in say 20, 30, 50 or even 100 years how the Western Front may or may NOT be preserved due to the changing perceptions of history and the significance or importance of World War I. Some might or will argue good riddance to memories of such a nationalistic, colonialistic an imperialistic derived war - bulldoze all the monuments, fill in the trenches, and relandscape the cemeteries as parks or subdivisions. Others will argue strenuously that everything possible should be done to preserve as much as possible - the question is though as the population increases and we have less and less arable lands even such preservationists might be challenged by the again irony of citizen gardens (seen in both World Wars of course) to make every available hectare food productive.
John

One man is OK as long as it isn't Michael Knighton or his spawn.

Believe me, that is what I was thinking as I typed, Borderman- (as someone who joined the boycott-the one good thing the trust did before , in my opinion, it imploded and decided to sue the club).That is another subject and indeed another forum.....
Great New year- about 11 points from League One safety- that'll do me....


John
Apart from my distrust of commitees, your post is a good point well made. I have no answer- that is I fear in the hands of governments and the burgeoning world population....

I'm really tring to not get drawn into this but if I see anothe moronic post about looted war wrecks I really will lose my f*&^ing fruit... There has NOT BEEN ONE CASE EVER of divers or salvers removing human remains from war wrecks in UK waters illegaly or for gain or whatever and being arrested, charged or prosecuted for it. What gets shifted is munitions where the depth is such that the wreck can be dived easily or it presents a danger to navigation.

When a wreck gets trashed in UK waters its to remove the risks above or its because understandably twitchy sub patrols mistook a wreck for a stationary u-boot and let fly (this happened a lot more than the MOD would like to admit).

I can tell you what usually happens when a new wreck is found - it gets photgraphed, measued and sometimes when this isn't enough a small item that can give and ID is taken, the vessel ID'd and it gets reported to the Receiver Of Wreck. For obviously military vessels, stuff only gets moved when the MOD gives approval. if you want the details, I'll happily do a separate lonf, dull post covering the intricacies and difficulities of amateur maritime archeaology!

Without people like me and my mates the world wouldn't bl**dy know where most of the war wrecks are and a lot of people, family and otherwise wouldn't find out what happened to the crew.

The next time someone insinuates that wearing a wetsuit equates in even the tiniest way to grave robbing, my nexy post will be 'You - outside, now!'

Oh and BTW there are in excess of 250,000 wrecks in UK waters, most lacking a positive ID.

Rant over

Your personalized response to the potential for illegal salvage is not entirely on target. You state that there is not one case of essentially what you might refer to as "grave robbing" - yet I do know that churches in Great Britain used to be (and perhaps still are) regularly broken into or have valuable objects stolen from them including funerary or commemorative to the dead objects. Clearly unless one were to find the coffin of Sir Francis Drake or some other notable (an underwater King Tut so to speak) amateurs themselves might be squeamish handling human remains and after such a long period underwater real valuables would not be necessarily that valuable (eg. paper money). Typically it is the cargo or the purser's safe or ship fittings that are far more easily handled or recognized as having value thus precluding much human remains handling. Your point that amateur archaelogists contribute a good deal is well taken and generally agreed upon - even though this is controversial within underwater archaeological communities. Part of the problem I think is public misperception : too many Hollywood or other movies or movies made for tv that depict such "evil black suited" gold hungry scavengers scouring the seas - when the vast majority of recreational amateur scuba divers just want to have safe legal fun. Hope you are feeling better now!
Also look at the other posts about thefts from the Western Front museums, displays and memorial sites.
John

Surely if a large collective of European lawyers could pool resources,then the most harmful effects might be avoided or greatly diminished. Perhaps I am wishful thinking or overly idealistic but my understanding of Europe generally is that it has moved much closer to being a European Community in reality and not just political theory etc....
John
Toronto, CANADA
John,you'd have a better chance of getting a collection of lawyers from Quebec(while its still Canadian)as they all speak French.As to a collective of euro lawyers,with all the rubbish that goes on in single language countries,what chance would you stand with German,French ,Flamand, English etc.
Oh,Didnt your gov.just give away a chunk of Vimy ridge to make a bypass?Sovereign territory,I was told.
David

Pessimism over or about lawyers may be quite due but if one sets one's goals in this case say preservation for future generations of say critical components (whatever criteria you apply in this case) of the Western Front then legal underpinnings, backing and official expertise are essential. Evading the issues by referring to disagreements or problems in one country is just that: evasion. No one says that Western Front preservation is a piece of cake because of what I referred to in my previous post: a seemingly happy, expanding and economically vibrant united Europe. Why don't various Europeans (and others!) sponsor a major Western Front preservation conference and try to come up with specific criteria, differing solutions, regional diversities, previous solutions underatken, etc....for this?
Merci pour votre contribution Monsieur!
John
Toronto

What would you call a collective of euro lawyers?

A fudge?
A gravy boat?
?

A bunch of hardworking dedicated legal eagles intent on serving not only their respective communities but mankind at large by acting on the significance of the Western Front(s) that they attempt to preserve.
John

Human beings are perishable, but justice survives as long as there are people who think

Woah! this floored me!!! First I have heard of this! Any links on such a move by the government??

Bypass is nearing completion mate.
Not as bad as it sounds.France & Canada talked a lot about this topic before anything started & it wont affect the Visitors centre or monuments.I think there are several posts on this,been planned for a while.As to the ridge,I havent seen a map of the route,only the works in progress.Ill have a look on google earth or see if I can take any photos there this w/e.

I think that you are way off the mark here. I never had to produce my passport when I visited Vimy Ridge

Andy

Canadian soil sound any better to you Andy?Or am I gettin further off the mark?

No it doesn't because its just not accurate. It may have been loaned/given in perpetuity to the Canadian people (I don't know if this is true??) but the Canadians do not hold sovereignty and therefore it cannot be described as Canadian soil.

Andy

You've got me thinking now mate.
Is there/has there been a thread on whether land given in perpetuity belongs to the donor country or to the recipient?I understood that our(Commonwealth)cemetary's were indeed ours & never to be moved/built upon etc.& if not,why bother calling them that?
Is it all nothing but 80 yr old politics that dont count today?Give me any info you've got on it,please as,I'd like to find out more.
Ta.Dave

Dave

As far as I am aware the land only "belongs" to the recipient country in the same way as you or I own our houses. Ownership does not allow for political autonomy within the property and would therefore be subject to the donor countrys law in the same way as with everyone elses property, and I suppose this could mean compulsory re-possesion in the event of a perceived national greater good.

France, Belgium, Turkey etc have not ceded sovereignty on any of the land donated for the purposes of military burials.

Andy

H.M.S Hampshire. & its gold from the 80's this is a classical rape & pillage story. The goverment is not far behind along with trying to sell the fuel oil from H.M.S Royal Oak. Oh & dont forget N.A.S.A for the high grade Armour plate for space craft etc. Scapa flow has more than been raided.
Dave.

Chocolate fireguard?

Okay, I knew of one that was underway the last couple of years, its not bad at all... I thought they had given MORE away for more roads... *whew*

It^'s all very well people talking about 'preserving' battlefield' sites, but where do you stop?

In my village and not 200 metres from where I am now there are two sites that are of interest, where evaders were hidden in WW2.

A couple of miles away there is a site where artillery was sited during the great siege of Luxembourg by Vauban in 1684. There is also a trail that was used to bring up the cavalry.

The entire city centre of Luxembourg is built on and among the remains of the biggest fortress in northern Europe. Stop building? Pull down what's there?

I go to a village just over the border in France to a commemoration each year. There was a small battle there in 1914. Tut, tut, they have built housing on the site. The site of the first battle in which Rommel was involved is not far from there and, my goodness, they have rebuilt the village and built new houses, right where he would have stood.!

How about Bastogne? Please can they build a few houses and the odd new road?

Liège has been rebuilt since the battles of 1914 and all the forts are surrounded by new housing estates.

Much of the Battle of the Bulge front line and battle scenes have been built over. Anyone want to complain?

All this lot are within an hour's drive of my home. A bit further afield - about 15 minutes, are the entire Verdun area. That' not just a restricted are, but a place the size of a city - Les Eparges, the forts down to St. Mihiel, etc. etc.

Much though I would like to see what the battlefields of whichever era were like at that time, you have to be realistic. You cannot preserve everything. I notice no one complains about the reforesting that has gone on - preventing visitors seeing just how it was - and how many people here refuse to use the carp parks at the various sites. They are after all built on the battlefield. Are the new museums and visitors centres to be torn down as they desecrate the sites?

The city of Strasbourg has barely anything left of its fortress. It was all deliberately torn down.

Life has to go on, and something somewhere has to give. How many castles were bult on the site of Iron Age forts, should they be torn down and the forts rebuilt somehow? You tell me.

Dead easy in the USA where there are no battlefield sites except for the Civil War.