Could you tell me how to pronounce Poelcapelle correctly please.

Mick

Hi Mick,
Pretty much as its spelt 'Poelcappelle' ["Pole-Cap-Ell"].

Cheers
Rob

That's how I say it in my head but never having heard anyone pronounce it I wondered if it was correct

I know what you mean. Flemish placename pronunciation can be treacherous!

Cheers
TM

It's more like "Pool-ka-pell" with the stress on the "Pool".

Tom

Quite right Tom, but I didn't really want to get into the phonetic subtleties of 'Pool', Pohl', Puul', 'Phul', 'Phol', etc., or any of the other 100 & 1 Franco-Flemish variations, especially when there are far more dangerous and tricky beasts out there such as 'Wytschaete' and 'Heuvelland' or even... 'Godewaersvelde'!

Cheers
Rob

Thanks Tom

How about this one - Gravenstafel

Mick

Bt the way, I like the hat avatar

Aurel ought to be able to explain, or, better still...Charlotte at Varlet Farm....after all....they live there!
Bruce

As to Poelkapelle : Tom is correct. Except that the -e at the end is pronounced too. (As in your article "the", or the first vowel in "ago".)

As to Graventafel. Not easy to explain without using phonetical writing. (Which I could not type !)

First sound G- is something that does not exist in English. Certainly not the same as in Grave ! It's a sound deep in the throat, certainly in the kind of Dutch spoken in Holland. (But didn't G.B. Shaw call that sort of Dutch : not a language, but a throat disease ?
But don't worry if you cannot produce it. For we here, in our Province of West-Flanders, cannot pronounce it either. We make it an H. Like in Home. Try that one, and no one here will even notice that it is not correct !

Both -a-'s : very close to your -a- in "father", "path", "last", "calm", "palm". Our long -a- in Standard Dutch however is more palatal (hard part of the palate), whereas yours is more velar (soft part of the palate)

And both -e-'s are as in your article "the", or first vowel in "ago".

And the stress is on the first syllable.

Next time we meet (Tom and others), make sure you have done your homework !

Aurel

Wow!
Since I am soon to be made redundant, I had thought of trying to learn Flemish.

Now I am not so sure.........

Bruce

Would Welsh be easier(if less use in Ieper)?

Last time I was in the area I asked someone directions, which involved the pronunciation of Wijtschate.

The chap was extremely helpful, and his English was excellent (my Flemish is non-existent) but I have to say, if I hadn't known the name of the village I would never have thought this was the same word! I won't even try to suggest how it sounds - perhaps Aurel could, although I think he'll need more space than he did for gravenstafel!

No wonder the soldiers in the Great War called it Whitesheet!

Alan

Pronunciation of Wijtschate ? Piece of cake ...
Stress on the first syllable, which sounds very much like English "wait".

The rest :
W as in "Wipers" or "Whitesheet"
IJ as in "Lijssenthoek"
T as in "PloegsteerT".
SCH as in Bikschote
A as in "Graventafel"
T as in "PloegsteerT" again
E as the last sound in Boezinge, Poperinge, Vlamertinge, Zonnebeke, Passendale, Beselare, Voormezele, Zandvoorde and ... Poelkapelle

Which brings us back to where we started from...

(And, Bruce, let me know how successful your Welsh was in "Wipers"

Aurel

And to be correct: it has to be: 's Graventafel
With the 's, it makes it even more difficult

Thanks all

Aurel your description of Graventafel is easier for me to understand than you think. Much appreciated

Mick

I'm not surpised that Robert couldn't resist the urge to poke his nose in this ! These teachers are all the same ! Nitpickers ! (I know because I used to be one myself, now I can afford to look at it from some distance.)

And what he said about 's Graventafel being even more difficult to pronounce than Graventafel !?!?
How can you be so wrong, Robert ?!
's G- has exactly the same pronunciation as the -sch- in ... Wijtschate !
Piece of cake.

Aurel

Correct prononciation is only possible by either 'native' people or by people of the in " this case" dutch or flemish mother-tongue language (poelcapelle is indeed a flemish place).
Since more than 30 years, I am working in an international surrounding (lots of different languages are spoken) and it shows that correct prononciation of a dutch language word by non-dutch mother-tongue people is rather impossible.

Gilbert Deraedt

When I read through the war diaries and history books I'm never sure how locations are pronounced (particularly in Belgium). I appreciate that the language is very intricate and that a full understanding is almost impossible unless you've been brought up with it. At least I have a better understanding of the two villages thanks to our Pals in Flanders.

I've also noticed that there are a few variations on the spelling of the villages. Why is this?

Mick

Mick,

I can't remember when exactly spelling was changed, but it certainly was before my own primary school time. Let's say that is was approx. 1945 (but I stand to be corrected by other Flemish pals).

Before that time (and so also in the first decades of last century) villages that now are Boezinge, Pilkem, Dikkebus, Beselare, Poperinge, Dranouter, Voormezele, Wulvergem, Wijtschate, Geluveld, Passendale, were then : Boesinghe, Pilckem, Dikkebusch, Beselaere, Poperinghe, Dranoutre, Wulverghem, Wytschaete, Gheluvelt, Passchendaele.

Another think : some are not known in British sources in the old Dutch (Flemish) spelling, but in the French form. Though this is only for towns : Ypres, Menin, Roulers (then Rousselaere, now Roeselare), Courtrai (now Kortrijk).