Going on from Will's piece on the pronounciation of Loos, can anyone give me pointers on the following places please?

St. Quentin. (France) Is it St. Kwentin as in the Johhny Cash song?
Holnon. (France) I say it as it is written.. Hol non.
Lens.

I have enough problems with the English language, and I'm hopless with foreign ones! You should hear me mutilate the Gaelic (Scots) language

L'Aa ?

Huy ?

Lee

Lens - I pronounce as Lons
I know that St Quentin is not pronounced the same as Cash's St Quentin.
Although I was told the correct French pronouncation on a tour, but as its not a
place name I have to use very often I can no longer remember what it was.

Geoff

son-ken-'tan (emphasis on last syllable) with a nasal n and said virtually as one word

But then apparently I speak Alsacien so who knows.

Gwyn

Hello Geoff,

Most of the people also pronounce it like that although it appears most of the locals drop the s-sound at the end.


About the St Quentin: Gwyn is quite correct although the first part is pronounced somewhat differently, it is more a bit like the e in end.


Jan

just had a thought on all this pronounciation stuff.

who in the UK pronounces Paris the same way as the French do ie we say as it's spelt whereas the french pronounce it more like 'parie'. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is Nice, who in the UK pronounces it as the English word n-ice, everybody I know pronounes it as 'niece', similarly Albert - I pronounce it 'Al-bear'.

Perhaps we should start saying Paris the same way as the French - just to show some consistency!! The more I think about it, the more Paris seems to be the exception to the rule really!!!

Geoff, Gwyn & Jan - Thank you very much, greatly appreciated!

LB - L'Aa? Huy? If they are Gaelic words, then I'm lost! I've got Malcolm MacLennan's 'A Pronounciation and Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language' and I can't see the words.

France, I fear. As beyond my O Level French as your Gaelic!

Not that I speak either properly but..............

Cna do ag ionnsachadh na Frangeis!


Aye
Malcolm

Wasn't it Sir John French's execrable but excusable mispronunciation of Huy that got Lanrezac all riled up and thinking French was an idiot?

What is the correct pronounciation for Thiepval? Does it have an acute accent on the e? I have heard "te-epval" "theepval" "teepval"

All suggestions gratefully recieved!

Sir John Frenchs' awful french was about Huy

Regards, Michelle

Isn't it ironic that someone who spoke such apparently execrable French should be called French!


Simon Bull

Could any one give me the correct pronunciaton for these-

Bapaume- Bap-owm/ Bap-ohm/ Bap-owmay?

Authuille- Or-theel/Owtheel/Owth-wheel?

My french is as excerable as Sir John's , I'm afraid

Regards
Spike

Bapaume: Bap-ohm
Authuille: Oht-wheel

Jan

Thiepval is, I think, "te-epval".

That's working on the basis that in French, if it's spelt the same , it sounds the same and I know someone called Thiery.

However, on the same basis. If Paris is paree, then is Arras pronounced "Arra"?

John

No John, contrary to what you might think the inhabitants call it ARRRAZZZZ

Aye
Malcolm

OK

Is Serre pronounced Seer or Sair? or what

I have always pronounced it in my own mind as Serray- until I was corrected!

Malcolm - Something about learning the French language, probably...
cna = ?
do = your, to, for?
ag = ?
na = don't, than?

Did you pick up gaelic locally or do a course?

Aye,
Lee

Teach Yourself Gaelic!! hard book to get into.

I did ( am ) not learning the French Language

and not much Gaelic either!



Aye
Malcolm

I have that book, it glares at me from the bookshelf!

Chris is correct in saying Huy was the name that FM French had trouble
pronouncing, and if anyone watches the 60's BBC Great War, Spears appears
in one of the early episodes relating the incident and gives the correct
pronunciation.

Also I was told earlier in the year that Mametz is pronounced Ma-may
is that correct

Geoff

I say again:

L'Aa

Huy

Anyone?

I feel the Forum Users Official Phonetic Pronunciation Guide, with Accompanying Tape or CD, coming on...

Just the thing to while away that tedious journey to the Channel Ports. Pop it in the car's CD player and you're well away, chanting and muttering to yourself as you drive, like some sort of mantra.

I'll do the copy and the promotional blurb if someone will do the techy bit.

Gwyn... sen-ken-tan... sen-ken-tan... sen-ken-tan...sen-ken-tan...sen-ken-tan...

When I was in a NATO team assessing NATO Air bases for readiness for war, there was a convention that, the team being a very mixed bunch, with English as the official language, everything was Anglicised to the nth degree by all. Hence Bruxells, which gave a lot of pleasure, not only at Christmas.

Oh, and L'Aa? My efforts sound, shall we say, constipated? Whereas Huy sounds as if I am sick.

Langley

I hope you have a copy of the above series because there's no way I could
pronounce verbally let alone spell the pronunciation.

Geoff

Sorry, I can't help it, but this is one of the most amusing threads I have ever seen. Please, do not think that I would like to joke about the enjoyable British way to massacre the pronunciation of French and Flemish names. It's just that trying to make clear what the exact pronunciation is, is a hopeless task, a losing battle...

- We can't use phonetical writing (not being able to type the correct signs)...
- Even if we could, are the Forum members able to read it ?
- And if we try to reflect the pronunciation by means of normal spelling, the confusion might even increase !

One might compare the pronunciation of a specific French name with the pronunciation of some English words, but the problem is that very often (even most of the time) these French sounds do not exist in English. E.g. Saint Quentin ... I cannot find of 3 simple English words that have the same vowel sounds as in Saint, Quen- and -tin. (The problem also being that the vowels have a nasal quality.)

Of course, one could refer to well-known French words, and say :
- Saint and -tin as in French "vin" (English wine)
- Quen- as the last syllable in French "restaurant" (and with k- of course, not kw- !)

But then who can assure us if the French pronunciation of these "simple" French words by an Englishman is correct ?

I think we have to learn to live with this, and see the massacre of French and Dutch (Flemish) pronunciation as one of the charms of the Britons.

Another amusing aspect : I (and other people in the Ypres area) have since long given up to teach British visitors the correct pronunciation of "Hooge" (Hooge Crater Museum, Hooge Crater Cemetery. (The correct Dutch pronunciation is a long monophthong -oo- (as in ... French Loos ! ), and a -g- as in... well, I can't explain, since the sound of this consonant does not exist in English, and not in French either !)

So what do I (we) do ? When speaking to British visitors, we simply adopt the 'ridiculous' English pronunciation, and pronounce it like English "huge" (but without the -j-).

I'll be following the development of this thread with interest. And ... amusement. Smiling.

But I have to say : Jan is doing is fine job.

Aurel

I really would like to help, but

Are there any takers for my previous posting please re. Serre?

If you can do that French-style guttural "r" sound at the end, and pronounce it so it rhymes with "air" you'll be about right.

Mind you, local people often tend to refer to it as "Serre-Les-Puisieux" (Sair' -lay-PWIZ-Yuh.)

Local pronunciations can be an added difficulty. It's a bit like trying to explain that Gloucester is pronounced "Gloster". Years ago I had some confusion with someone telling me he'd met me some time before, in "Beaumel" - a place I'd never been to. I bluffed for a while until I realised that "Beaumel" is Beaumont-Hamel!

Tom

Aurel

Many years ago, a Dutch friend (sadly deceased) tried to teach me this - as in Gouda cheese. It really just sounds like I'm trying to get rid of plegm in my throat (but my pal reckoned it was a reasonable attempt). No offence intended towards your wonderful language and/or the Flemish dialect.

John

John,

As the risk of getting off topic ... (It should have been in Utterly Off-Topic instead of Western Front ...) But as in a former life I was a language teacher ...

Here in Flanders our standard language is Dutch. The same as in the Netherlands. However there are some differences. Also in pronunciation. A very typical difference is that (most of) the Dutch have a very distinct way of pronouncing the sound -g-. "Getting rid of phlegm" ? That sounds like a good description !
Actually, I remember that one of your British authors once said : "Dutch ? That's not a language ! It's a throat disease !" (I wish I remembered his name. Could it have been G.B. Shaw ?)
We here in Flanders have a much softer -g-. And actually, here in this province (West-Flanders, including the Ypres area) we have no -g- at all ! We pronounce the -g- as -h-, and most people, especially the ones that are not used to speaking the standard language, only their dialect, cannot even produce it the way it should be done. So "Hooge" sounds as "Hoohe".

And as Tom referred to Gloucester / 'Gloster' ... Years ago I was in London with a party, near Piccadilly Circus, and one of us asked a Londoner to tell the way to Lei-ces-ter Square. "Lei-ces-ter Square you said ? There is no such place in London." It took us 3 passers-by to hear : "Lei-ces-ter Square ? You no doubt mean Lester Square !!"

One more thing : if ever you are back in Ypres, having an hour or so to spare, ask 100 (or 1000) natives crossing the Market Place to read "Worcestershire sauce". Your Ypres stay will have an enjoyable last chapter.

Aurel

Bapaume: Bap-ohm
Authuille: Oht-wheel
Jan



Thanks Jan-or should that be mercy buckets

Dear Pals

Eagerly awaited - the first photo of a Pal clutching a bottle of Lea & Perrins in the Grote Markt. Pink trousers - optional extra.

John

(PS: Aurel - congratulations on getting the name right . Ask 100 Brits and 95 will tell you it's "worcester sauce". This used to be a regular one in a pub quiz.)