Hi,
Have found relics from the Somme for sale on ebay, some of which are from Mametz Wood. There is a link which takes you to the sellers site, in which it mentions metal detecting.
I have been to the Somme a number of times, and are more than aware that relics are apparent when walking long the surface of the land, but is it right to sell them?

Do you mean morally right to sell them or legally right to sell them ?

Legally right to dig them up?

if you take something of someones land with out permission is it not just plain theft?

I believe that I have read in this forum that there are rules against metal detecting in France.

not sure whether this is true or not but I asked a question about 2 French detectorists on Redan Ridge and was told that detecting in the Somme Region is illegal but not in the Pas-de-Calais so they are very careful where they detect.

Mick

Metal detecting on public land is illegal, so is digging on private land (ie Mametz Wood). But, if permission is given by the owner of the (private) land then that is different.

The old subject of relics never goes away and is one of the biggest forum faves:

Metal Detectors on France

The chap selling this stuff is the subject of another on going discussion on this forum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Mick D

Is metal detectoring very productive on a WW1 battlefield anyway? The amount of "useless" metal (shell shards , etc) lying about must be so phenominal that they must be going off constantly!

Only ever detected on one battlefield (Oosterbeek) and, though a few significant finds were made, the majority was just "junk"- and that's a far less concentrated battlefield than most WW1 ones!

Dave

Metal detectng is utterly, totally and completely illegal on every battlefield in France.

Forget this nonsense about it's OK here and not there. Surprisingly, perhaps laws apply right across the country in France (and most other countries save the USA).

Anyone even caught with a detector in their car can look forward to a fine of up to 10,000 €. The court at Verdun hands down the maximum penalty several times a year.

Of course, if you don't want to pay a fine you can always dig up a nice big shell and throw it in the back of our car.

So, if I owned a piece of land in France, and a metal detector, it would be illegal for me to a, possess the metal detector and b, to use it on my own land?

Any reliable source for that information?

Inprinciple all battlefield sites are protectd unless the Prefet, etc decide otherwise. You need a permit to start digging up even your own land in an archaeological dig.

You need a permit also in the UK.

interesting then that its so common on Redan Ridge in full view, no attempt to hide the fact during the day. some contradictory comments, illegal on every battlefield in france? the whole of France was a battle ground. Can dig on private land? I don't think anyone here really knows. best keep well from metal detectors....the first question i was asked before my car was taken apart by those nice men in boiler suits and funny hats was 'do you have a metal detector?' maybe they were just making polite conversation but i dont think so.

Mick

can't wait to start landscaping my garden, will start with a few very deep pits.

Mick

The whole thing is sketchy I have detected with and without permission over 30 odd years in the UK and F&F.
I have always done it in France in the open in daylight, and have been approached by police in Normandy on a couple of occasions. Once they wished me luck and once they asked me nicely to move on. I have not detected for about 10 years now on the western front. Field walking is almost as productive, a large ammount of ferrous metal comes up anyway. I don't do it now as I have moral issues of my own to justify it, besides I am too old to jump fences, hedges and lay flat in ditches at night now, especially without the night vision headset!

These days I only do owner permission sites in the UK and work within the law together with local archeological societies etc. There is a code to follow detecting..........

RD

Hello

It's illegal everywhere to use a detector, not only on a battlefield. Even in your private land you are not allowed to dig if there are archeological artifacts. But it's difficult to prevent such a practice. You could write a mail to the Direction Régionale des Affaires Culturelles de Picardie (drac.picardie@culture.gouv.fr) with the name of the seller but I'm not sure that it will change something...

Best regards

See the "New Shop on the Somme" thread on CHIT-CHAT section where this issue is currently being debated. SG

parked at quarry cemty, near montauban, a while ago, brit registered car there as well. Two figures on the skyline, spotted me then there were none!
I went for a mooch up a farm track, to get some pics, leaving my son in the car, when i got back he said two guys, very very muddy had just come off the field, ..........with detectors!

shame he didnt get their car reg

yes they were the days. 3am to 5am on a foggy morn.

Mick

Read this thread carefully and you may be able to get names as well Willy !
Roland.

Just to actually answer the question that was being asked - unless it's dangerous (ie explosive) or breaks some law in the land in which it's being sold, then no, there is nothing legally wrong with selling such relics. Morally wrong is a different matter, but personally, it doesn't bother me though there are people who get quite fired up by this subject for some reason.

Dave

Be carefull though, wouldn't want any slander charges!

Mick

Can't see where?

Dave

Not sure if this is corect either! I also see many people useing them quite openly in France and they are always locals. I would of thought that they would know the law. The Diggers use them openly here in Belgium and my neighbour uses one on his land openly! It sounds to me, as if the law is as open to interpretation as ever!

Belgium ain't France, and locals ain't tourists.

I fully understand that different countries have different laws, but are you really suggesting that there are different laws for residents and visitors in France?

That seems a bit ridiculous.

Please explain Sir?

The law is One Thing,Enforcing it is Another...Are there any records of Successful prosecutions of People Metal Detecting in France or Belgium ???,or have any Forum members personally Heard of anyone actually having been Nicked for said Offence ?

perhaps the question could be asked a different way, does anyone have any evidence of anyone being prosecuted, having car confiscated for using a metal detector?


Mick

I thought the Question was perfectly clear..

Dave,

As a seller of militaria you probably don't have a problem with it; and I don't suppose most people have a problem with the detritus of the battlefield being picked up.

However, where I think most people do find it objectionable is when it verges on, or becomes, grave robbing i.e. removing items that may eventually identify, if nothing else, at least the regiment that a soldier belongs to. Evidence of this was very apparent on Trench Detectives. Some of the state of the shoulder titles on ebay suggest they have been in some form of mud for quite a while.

Aye

Tom McC

Tom.

Am I the "Dave" you refer to here? If not, I apologise, but if so, I'm a little confused by this statement.

Dave

Dave,

Reference battlefield relics, you stated:

but personally, it doesn't bother me though there are people who get quite fired up by this subject for some reason

Hopefully, this makes the issue less confusing.

Aye

Tom McC

Well, yes, it doesn't bother me at all and never has. Why would it?

I'm not a militaria dealer though. I used to collect militaria years ago and list a couple of items on my website that are surplus to my collection. On rare occasions, I might put something on eBay when I need the cash (usually for a trenchmap or a book), but I wouldn't class myself as a "seller of militaria" any more than anyone else is on this forum. It's that statement that confused me (and still does).

Dave

A dug up relic only retains its provenance of origin to the unearther and anyone prepared to trust his/her word. A label with "Found at Mametz Wood" would normally mean nothing to me in other circumstances, and particularly on ebay. Phil B

I've not got a problem with Somme Relics being sold.I'm not sure about the legality of them being collected from the fields by metal detectors and will be guided by others.My only concern is the moral one that by being left in situ or at least being recovered sympathetically they will help towards the partial identification of a casualty.
Few observations though
What's the difference between a relic recovered from a Battlefield and one sold by a Family? e.g.When visting Vimy Ridge a few years ago I saw a Princess Mary Tin that had clearly been recovered from the ground.I've got one at Home.I'm sure no-one would complain if I came to sell mine(it ain't for sale )Mine is a relic and would probably command a better price as it's in a much better condition than the one I saw in the Vimy Ridge Vistor Centre.
Same adage applies to Medals.They are a relic of the War and however one views them they are free to be bought and sold.
Finally-What happens to any relics that are found on Casualties e.g. Buttons,Badges,etc?Are they re-buried with the Casualty, held in a great archive by the CWGC or disposed of?
George

If the local gendarme is your father-in-law or your uncle you may well be able to do things that other people can't.

Still doesn't make it legal.

The subject comes up quite regularly on the French news - especially as we get to, for instance, the anniversary of Verdun - and they always say what the penalties are and always add that at Verdun alone the maximum fine of 10,000€ is handed down at least three times per year. Many lesser fines are handed down.

Of course, you could try getting caught deliberately and see what happens and then report.

Christina Holstein was stopped and interrogated once with her family as they were walking the battlefields in the pouring rain, on the grounds that only a collector would do that.

When I purchased my property in France, upon signing the required paperwork there was an interesting paragraph relating to any archaeological finds made on the property automatically belong to the state!

It is an offence to use a metal detector on any site deemed to be of archaeological or historical interest as deemed by the authorative body. The rules are very similar in France to those in the UK, with the exception that in France you apply to the Prefecture for a license to detect or dig a site of archaeological / historic interest. If you want to be 100% certain of not breaking the law, go and and detect on the beach - unless there is a local French bylaw which prohibits this activity also.

Firestep

I can concur with that, having purchased a property in Normandie last month.

If I find anything in my garden, I won't be telling anyone I've found it

I would hope you'd at least phone the DOVO or equivalent if you found live munitions in your back garden.

[quote name='Sgt_Hazell_Great_Grandson' date='Feb 10 2007, 08:41 AM' post='619116']


I have always been told it's illegal to use detectors anywhere in france, and to be honest i don't like the idea, even being in possesion of the smallest fragment picked up is i believe also illegal, but apart from around Verdun a blind eye is clearly turned on most occasions.

Still don't make it right though, just because you get away with it.

Steve, I think what you mean is - "If I find anything in my garden, I won't be telling anyone I've found it - as long as it's worth keeping!"

At least that's how I interpreted the paragraph when I signed

I may be barking up the wrong tree here but I was under the impression of you found something or bought something from a yokel you were asking for trouble at customs. If you buy something and get a receipt for it you were safe and customs wouldn't touch you. Please put me straight on this.

Kevin

[quote name='Kevinaka1888' date='Mar 2 2007, 07:57 PM' post='636029']

Kev if the "something" is anything that comes under i believe section 5 firearms and you got it, the men from customs will be putting on the rubber gloves, and you will be late for your tea!

Oh and also your car will resemble a meccano set.

Say I purchased a picklehaube from a dealer in France for a few hundred euros and has a receipt could the French customs still take it from me.

No Kevin they couldn't. Thats not what they're looking for. Its about being sensible. I keep getting criticised when I comment on here about keeping things in perspective but....Do not bring any object back that smells like explosives, looks like it might explode or is able to shoot someone. Chances are you won't even be stopped and searched but do not take that risk. If you are lucky enough to find a cap badge, button or id tag then put it in your pocket because if you are carrying something you shouldn't then they take everything associated with the item.

If you want a chat about what happens when you are stopped and arrested by French Police and customs, give me a bell.

By the way I have a couple of items for you that will be safe to bring back so pop round for a Leffe and bacon sandwich when you come over.

Mick

Cheers Mick the phone call cleared up a few things. I know now if I want to buy anything then it will be from a museum and not from a Zak or Shadrag Dingle.

Kevin

p.s congratulations on your promotion.

I have to say i visit France and Belgium 4-5 times a year and i do as many of the different battlegrounds as possible, and on my travels i do pick up relics from farmers and friends but nothing that has been dug using metal detectors,you simply dont have to, if you look in the right places.
The most successful places i find items are in the farmers spoil banks.

Each trip i try to add something unusual to my ever growing collection, and what i do not require i will sell, and the proceeds are then saved to go towards my next trip. Makes sense to me.

However i cant believe some of the stories i have heard, about people putting live munitions and other nasties in the boots of there cars,and then taking them on the ferries, etc., endangering the lives of hundreds, a big no no in my book and they should be banged up for a very long time no questions asked.


Alan