Out of interest, what does the first day of the Somme (1 July 1916) mean to you? Also, just how many people did go to the 90th anniversary service in France? I've heard estimates ranging from 3000 to 15,000. Any one have any newspaper articles they can scan and paste up? I'd be most interested.
Andy M
Full Version: First Day of the SOmme
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=55217
It was my first visit - won't be my last - diary and pics here.
It was my first visit - won't be my last - diary and pics here.
As someoneone who got interested in the mid 80s the two main books were Martin Middlebrooks 1st Day on the Somme amd Lyn McDonalds the Somme. For me it is very poignient but I know acknowledge there were more days in the Great war also.
We have to have a day to remember and this is second only to 11/11.
TT
We have to have a day to remember and this is second only to 11/11.
TT
A multi-levelled answer, Andy.
The first level is the wider one. My current project is researching Stockport's dead and 1 July isnt too big a deal in that - in terms of single unit casualties, I would be much more attached to 31/7/17 or 4/6/15.
On the first personal level, it was two days after Great Uncle Ben killed near Bienvillers so I can think of it as just another day when my ancestors were not killed.
However, on the second personal level, I know exactly where Grandad Tom was on 1 July and have walked the ground. And I can't say that, with such precision, about the rest of his service. In itself, it makes it special - but it's the ground between Maricourt and Montauban that's special , not so much the date (although the two are obviously intertwined).
John
The first level is the wider one. My current project is researching Stockport's dead and 1 July isnt too big a deal in that - in terms of single unit casualties, I would be much more attached to 31/7/17 or 4/6/15.
On the first personal level, it was two days after Great Uncle Ben killed near Bienvillers so I can think of it as just another day when my ancestors were not killed.
However, on the second personal level, I know exactly where Grandad Tom was on 1 July and have walked the ground. And I can't say that, with such precision, about the rest of his service. In itself, it makes it special - but it's the ground between Maricourt and Montauban that's special , not so much the date (although the two are obviously intertwined).
John
What gets my goat about the whole First of July thing is: what idiot ordered the troops to WALK to the German trenches after the barrage lifted? I can't remember what book I read it in, but a German trooper was quoted as saying; "Why did they walk? If they had charged our trenches, we would have been soundly routed". I know that the command assumed that the Germans would be wiped out by the week-long barrage, but why weren't they ordered to charge, just in case?
QUOTE (Rupert @ Mar 6 2007, 10:05 AM) 
What gets my goat about the whole First of July thing is: what idiot ordered the troops to WALK to the German trenches after the barrage lifted? I can't remember what book I read it in, but a German trooper was quoted as saying; "Why did they walk? If they had charged our trenches, we would have been soundly routed". I know that the command assumed that the Germans would be wiped out by the week-long barrage, but why weren't they ordered to charge, just in case?
Ever attempted to run carrying a rifle, full kit and extra SAA? (oh and uphill)
stevem
Not to mention broken ground churned up by shells etc and covered in battle field debris in some places.
They didn't ALL advance walking in straight lines carrying their rifles at the port.
Some were in sections, worms, indian file, artillery formation; some used the fire and movement techniques used in training.
They didn't ALL advance walking in straight lines carrying their rifles at the port.
Some were in sections, worms, indian file, artillery formation; some used the fire and movement techniques used in training.
QUOTE (Rupert @ Mar 6 2007, 10:05 AM)
What gets my goat about the whole First of July thing is: what idiot ordered the troops to WALK to the German trenches after the barrage lifted? I can't remember what book I read it in, but a German trooper was quoted as saying; "Why did they walk? If they had charged our trenches, we would have been soundly routed". I know that the command assumed that the Germans would be wiped out by the week-long barrage, but why weren't they ordered to charge, just in case?
A common misapprehension that every Empire troop lined up in front of his trench and then plodded forward " as if on parade". Different units employed different methods including cover and fire etc. The reason Commanders thought that New Army troops should move forward in a rigidly contolled fashion is to be found in the battle of Loos. It was found there, that New Army units under the command of inexperienced officers and NCOs, quickly lost all cohesion. They also lost all sense of direction. Some, at Loos, ended up advancing at almost right angles to the intended line of attack.
This topic was aired here:-http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65593&hl=skirmishers
All I would add is that the survivors of 1/7/16 (mainly Accrington Pals) to whom I have spoken bitterly resented being told to walk across nomansland. Phil B
All I would add is that the survivors of 1/7/16 (mainly Accrington Pals) to whom I have spoken bitterly resented being told to walk across nomansland. Phil B
Andy,
Hi, how are you?
Anyway, it comes as no secret that 1.7.16 is an obsession of mine that, over 15 years or more, has localised to Gommecourt. Thus one book done and another 50% written.
Personally, I blame Martin Middlebrook
'The First Day on the Somme', bought when I was looking for something to explain what I saw on my visits to the cemeteries, etc., in the early 90s, just got me hooked on the battle, the area, the people, the tragedy.
I find it interesting that no one has done a parallel book to FDotS looking at the tactical and technical issues relating to the attack in the same detail as Middlebrook did his 'personal' history of that day. Perhaps something to look at for the next weigthy tome
What is clear is that there are numerous misconceptions about the battle that linger on to this day. Prior and Wilson did something to dispel some of the myths, etc. in their book about the Somme but there is still so much more to discover.
I am afraid that, as the years go by, the emotional attachment to the men involved grows. On visits to the cemeteries I seek out names I know or have just discovered and I will admit to talking to them as if they could hear. No wonder my wife, usually sitting on the cemetery wall enjoying the sunshine, thinks I am barking. On a few occasions I have either met or been contacted by relatives anxious to know more about what happened. It is a pleasure to be able to point them in the right direction even if it is just for the small part of the battlefield I now know pretty well.
And, when researching the books, when I come across a survivor and then check their names in CWGC if they appear as killed at some later date I find it almost physically deflating.
So, there you go, obsession, a weird and wonderful thing.
Hi, how are you?
Anyway, it comes as no secret that 1.7.16 is an obsession of mine that, over 15 years or more, has localised to Gommecourt. Thus one book done and another 50% written.
Personally, I blame Martin Middlebrook
'The First Day on the Somme', bought when I was looking for something to explain what I saw on my visits to the cemeteries, etc., in the early 90s, just got me hooked on the battle, the area, the people, the tragedy.I find it interesting that no one has done a parallel book to FDotS looking at the tactical and technical issues relating to the attack in the same detail as Middlebrook did his 'personal' history of that day. Perhaps something to look at for the next weigthy tome
What is clear is that there are numerous misconceptions about the battle that linger on to this day. Prior and Wilson did something to dispel some of the myths, etc. in their book about the Somme but there is still so much more to discover.
I am afraid that, as the years go by, the emotional attachment to the men involved grows. On visits to the cemeteries I seek out names I know or have just discovered and I will admit to talking to them as if they could hear. No wonder my wife, usually sitting on the cemetery wall enjoying the sunshine, thinks I am barking. On a few occasions I have either met or been contacted by relatives anxious to know more about what happened. It is a pleasure to be able to point them in the right direction even if it is just for the small part of the battlefield I now know pretty well.
And, when researching the books, when I come across a survivor and then check their names in CWGC if they appear as killed at some later date I find it almost physically deflating.
So, there you go, obsession, a weird and wonderful thing.
The 56th are your men, Bill, in the same way as I see the 14th lads as mine...
Still happy to receive any snippets on those who served with the Swansea Battalion.
Bernard
Still happy to receive any snippets on those who served with the Swansea Battalion.
Bernard
It was a day of myth, legend and one of those days, and history has only a few, destined to signify a change in History .. a new or different epoch.
The reality of the day will or has been lost much like 3rd day at Gettysburg ... or the April Morning on Lexington Green. In a way, it's like reading the flight diary of the Enola Gay ... 1/7/16 or 7/1/16 so Americans can read it ... will live forever and because of that, it is shrouded in the million myths of experience and analysis that is human experience and the field we call History.
24 hours like the one before and the one after ... but what happened and what was supposed to happen were so different and it was one of those things that was both important in intention and in result - that we who speak English are forever changed.
My own belief is that there is no blame involved. There are a thousand "Ifs" ... it is our lot to study and try to understand ... and reflect and study somemore ... and remember the graves and those who woke on 2/7/16 both ...
The reality of the day will or has been lost much like 3rd day at Gettysburg ... or the April Morning on Lexington Green. In a way, it's like reading the flight diary of the Enola Gay ... 1/7/16 or 7/1/16 so Americans can read it ... will live forever and because of that, it is shrouded in the million myths of experience and analysis that is human experience and the field we call History.
24 hours like the one before and the one after ... but what happened and what was supposed to happen were so different and it was one of those things that was both important in intention and in result - that we who speak English are forever changed.
My own belief is that there is no blame involved. There are a thousand "Ifs" ... it is our lot to study and try to understand ... and reflect and study somemore ... and remember the graves and those who woke on 2/7/16 both ...
This is NOT a modern political point.
This has a linkage to the subject in hand.
A columnist in the Belfast Telegraph was writing recently about the effect of the 'troubles' on the former RUC (now PSNI).
The top man in the met. had told a conference in NI that what the RUC experienced 'then' was as nothing to the terrorist threat apparent 'now'.
He also rather foolishly stated (although in language terms he was perfectly correct) that the RUC had been a paramilitary force. Cue frenzied response.
NOW - if you are still here.
She wrote that the 3,600 fatal victims (from all 'sides') in the troubles if extrapolated to encompass the whole of the UK would have amounted to 100,000 dead. The fatalities amongst police (if extrapolated in a similar way) would have been 10,000 across the UK.
Still here ...?
Those figures relate to a 30-odd year period.
Now, it is pretty well accepted that the casualties of Ulster Div. on that first day of the Somme were in the region of 5,000 - some sources round it up to 5,500, others go for a more or less figure. Of those (depending who you quote) 2000 odd are KIA or DoW slightly afterwards.
And all this happening in a matter of a few hours.
Someone with mathematical expertise can do the sums. What I'm trying to say is that the EFFECT of 1st July on Ireland then/Northern Ireland now has to be viewed in that context.
I am equally sure there are similar 'parochial figures/extrapolations' which can be done for other regions.
I know the above is all statistics and hypothetical stuff but thought it was worth mentioning.
Please don't bite me for this one. I was just thinking about it!
QUOTE Of the 5,500 casualties suffered in this feat of arms, nearly half were killed. As a proportion of Ulster's population, these fatalities are the equivalent to over 100,000 of today's UK population. QUOTE
Googled ... above is from the MoD's own website.
See here:-
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceN...dAtTheSomme.htm
This has a linkage to the subject in hand.
A columnist in the Belfast Telegraph was writing recently about the effect of the 'troubles' on the former RUC (now PSNI).
The top man in the met. had told a conference in NI that what the RUC experienced 'then' was as nothing to the terrorist threat apparent 'now'.
He also rather foolishly stated (although in language terms he was perfectly correct) that the RUC had been a paramilitary force. Cue frenzied response.
NOW - if you are still here.
She wrote that the 3,600 fatal victims (from all 'sides') in the troubles if extrapolated to encompass the whole of the UK would have amounted to 100,000 dead. The fatalities amongst police (if extrapolated in a similar way) would have been 10,000 across the UK.
Still here ...?
Those figures relate to a 30-odd year period.
Now, it is pretty well accepted that the casualties of Ulster Div. on that first day of the Somme were in the region of 5,000 - some sources round it up to 5,500, others go for a more or less figure. Of those (depending who you quote) 2000 odd are KIA or DoW slightly afterwards.
And all this happening in a matter of a few hours.
Someone with mathematical expertise can do the sums. What I'm trying to say is that the EFFECT of 1st July on Ireland then/Northern Ireland now has to be viewed in that context.
I am equally sure there are similar 'parochial figures/extrapolations' which can be done for other regions.
I know the above is all statistics and hypothetical stuff but thought it was worth mentioning.
Please don't bite me for this one. I was just thinking about it!
QUOTE Of the 5,500 casualties suffered in this feat of arms, nearly half were killed. As a proportion of Ulster's population, these fatalities are the equivalent to over 100,000 of today's UK population. QUOTE
Googled ... above is from the MoD's own website.
See here:-
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceN...dAtTheSomme.htm
QUOTE (Rupert @ Mar 6 2007, 10:05 AM)
what idiot ordered the troops to WALK to the German trenches after the barrage lifted?
That'll be the "idiot" who gave the orders to 30th Division which, as you'll know, had really the only success of the day.
17/Manchester advanced "at the slowest walk" and still got there well before the artillery barrage had lifted from Montauban. As such they had to lie down in No Man's Land for 40 minutes.
(Source: diary of Lt K Callan-McArdle - IWM Archives).
As already said, no-one was daft enough to walk across in a unbroken line as we might envisage from Napoleonic times. The Manc's advanced in "blobs" as they had been trained to do and which they had practicised several times (including once without officers).
John
Brigade, or more likely battalion orders would show what form the advance of the individual units was to take.
As has been said, it varied. I am trying to remember where I read that about 20 per cent of the troops advanced in line, the rest in other formations and as JH has said it also depended on the artillery plan.
As has been said, it varied. I am trying to remember where I read that about 20 per cent of the troops advanced in line, the rest in other formations and as JH has said it also depended on the artillery plan.
QUOTE (truthergw @ Mar 6 2007, 10:39 AM)
The reason Commanders thought that New Army troops should move forward in a rigidly contolled fashion is to be found in the battle of Loos. It was found there, that New Army units under the command of inexperienced officers and NCOs, quickly lost all cohesion. They also lost all sense of direction.
Unfortunately, 9 of the assaulting divisions on 1/7/16 were New Army. This experience from 31 div may be typical of them:- Phil B
The 11th Borders ( New Army) advanced in blob formation according to the Battalion History, so at least 1 New Army unit not walking in line abreast, then.
I think this is another of the partial truths about July 1st that have become total truths.
I think this is another of the partial truths about July 1st that have become total truths.
Thanks a bunch for your replies all. Much appreciated, and keep'em coming. Any thoughts on how many people went to the 90th? Does anyone have newspaper coverage of the same? I can't immediately find anything on the Internet.
Andy M
Andy M
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