Whilst browsing through the local bookstore today, I picked up a biography of Monash.

It had the following picture with the caption that Monash was the first soldier for 200 years to be knighted in the field, after his Australian's offensive at Hamel in 1918.

Click to view attachment

Clearly a remarkable soldier, whom King George V had a great affection for, it made me wonder whom the last soldier to be knighted before he.

Dave

I'm not sure who was last knighted in the field before Monash but he certainly must have been a remarkable man given the moment in time, especially when you consider he was only a civilian soldier, Jewish and of German parentage.

Cheers,
Tim L.

Tim,

I didn't buy the book but I think I will; looks like an Australian that deserves more than most. On the cover it describes the beating he was given by Bean and Murdoch to try and get him sacked, mostly due to his background and that he didn't fit the 'proper lineage' for a General.

A bit of a story on the AWM website shows that Field Marshall Montgomery describes Monash as 'the best general in Western Europe during WWI'

Dave

Of course he does have a few bits and pieces named after him down your way, a great Victorian nonetheless..

*sob, thoughts of sunny Geelong!*

Dave

A man that deserves much more recogintion.

Kim

By the way Dave, which biography is it? There are a couple and I've got the one by Geoffrey Searle. Can recommend it too.

I know there was another one only reasonably recently but haven't read that one.

And yes there are a few things named after him. For instance, if I wished I could drive down the Monash Freeway, through the City of Monash and onto Monash University. And I'm sure there are more!

Cheers,
Tim L.

200 years back from 1918 would take you to the time of Queen Anne
and I don't suppose that she traveled to many battlefields
so it must have been either William (before) or George (after)
My money is on William; but whom did he knight?

Montgomery's comments come from his book 'A Concise History of Warfare'

Apart from at-home/down-under, Monash is also recognised in Israel where a village is named after him as well as streets in several towns

By the way, General Monash also picked up a GCMG as well as orders and decorations from France, Belgium and the USA, amongst others

This is his coat of arms [sorry about the quality of the repro]



The lion represents the Lion of Judah, and it is holding a pair of compasses symbolizing his engineering background
the five stars are for his country of birth, Australia
and the sword indicates his military career
The supporters represent 'An artilleryman and an infantryman of the AIF denote that the honour of knighthood was granted to the holder as the leader and representative of the soldiers of Australia.'


Michael
who is happy to agree with Monty

Couldn't find it through a quick search in Abebooks etc. I think it is relatively new, but may be a reprint. They had a quite a few copies on the shelf in Borders... it is the one with a portrait of him on front...(funnily enough! )

Dave

the 'old man'
probably taken on one of his last ANZAC Days

Dave,

The copy I've got is called Monash - A Biography (funnily enough) by Geoffrey Searle (2nd Edition) and has a profile portrait of his face against a dark background. The third edition is available now having been re-released last year I think but has a different cover (statue of monash on a horse).

The other book I've seen was called "Monash, the Outsider who won a war" by Roland Perry which was released about 2004-5. It's cover is a picture of Monash on a horse at a parade or similar.

If what you've seen was Searle's book then buy it. It was an award winner and very very good.

Cheers,
Tim L.

I think Sir Arthur Currie may have received his knighthood in France as well, in 1917 after Vimy.

Terry Reeves

I'd guess that the main reason why it hadn't happened for a long time would be that the monarch hadn't been in the field to knight soldiers. George II was the last British King to personally command his army in battle, at Dettingen in 1743. It would seem likely that the previous such ceremony would have happened around then. Up to & including William III (of Orange), the monarch would frequently have been with the army, so it would have been very common for soldiers to be knighted in the field.

Thanks for the post Micheal.

Cheers
Kim

I agree with Tim - Serle's book on Monash is brilliant - but I've heard the other one is pretty good too. (still debating whether I'll buy it as well!)

In his memory - don't forget his portrait can be seen on the $100 bill. I have one in my collection - but apart from this - I don't see them very often either.
And my dad worked for many years at Monash House - which was the head office of the SEC.

But what I find kind of sad (and a little strange) is that our great General doesn't have any recognition of his war service on his grave at the Brighton Cemetery:

Click to view attachment

Cheers, Frev

Michael, I have checked Pedersen, Searle, Smithers and Perry's book and can't find that picture. Most have one taken a little later when he was being knighted. One reveals that he tried to stand up after being tapped on the right shoulder to find the King was half way through the ceremony he wisely continued to kneel until told "arise Sir John". He was knighted with a General O'Keefe (who is he?).

One aspect of his post war life that is interesting to anyone who has earned a degree is that that he wrote his book The Australian Victores in France in 1918 and sent it to Oxford and Cambridge. He was given Law Doctorates for that and then sent it to Melbourne University and got an Engineering Doctorate for the same book. Not bad if you can do it.

Finally, there is an interesting connection with Maj Gen McCay who you will recall was a Defence Minister and worked on the same floor as Monash. I think Monash got some governement work from him. Later of course Monash rose to be his leader. I can't remember who started off higher up I think it may have been McCay. McCay was known for helping his soldiers up Gallipoli at gun point and lost about 80% soon after and for his fine work at Fromelles loosing at 5533 as casualties in 24 hours. I think his total experience in frontline work at Gallipoli was about 5 weeks.

Having said that I think Monash was a great leader and changed the thinking in the use of infantry. A remarkable man.

Chris.

Dave,

I still can't fully answer your original question, however the Monash University site here http://www.adm.monash.edu.au/records-archi...hn/sirjohn.html
indicates that my guess of King William was wrong and Gibbo/Martin was right; it is believed to have been George II at Dettingen: "General Monash received a knighthood from King George V at Bertangles, near Amiens, reputedly the first time a British sovereign had conferred a knighthood on the field of battle since King George II created knights at the battle of Dettingen in 1743."


Chris,

My impression reading this same Monash University site is that the Oxford University degree was Honorary and awarded in 1919 before he left for Europe for Australia
I think that the book was still being worked on at that time [I may be wrong but, didn't he do some of it on the ship during the voyage home?] and Melbourne University awarded him Doctorates in 1921 & 1922, one of which was indeed on the basis of the book

Sorry I cannot help with Gen O'Keefe;
Monash makes no mention of him in his letter home regarding the ceremony and I have not come across him elsewhere

regards
Michael

Michael, I expect that both the Cambridge and Oxford doctorates were honorary. Arguably the Engineering doctorate would have been as well. His writings were not released as a book until 1920 but they may have been released selectively earlier?

The notation for Gen O'Keefe was that he was knighted the same day O'Keefe DMS Army KCMG. So I would expect that he was a british general who was also the Director of Medical Services and perhaps not a career military doctor since his was a KCMG and not the order of the Bath which is more military.

That is the note in Monash's diary however the King noted giving KCB to both Monash and "O'Keeff[sic].

So he is the mystery man at present

Chris

This site will tell you.

Trooper Thomas Brown of Bland's King's Own Dragoons rescues the Guidon at the Battle of Dettingen and knighted by King George II who was leading the battle.

http://www.britishbattles.com/battle_of_dettingen.htm

Does anyone know what a Guidon is?

Chris.

Regiments flag, standard carried by the soldiers. It was what they rallied to when the battle became confusing or lost. To lose the guidon/standard was not good for your career. Goes back to medieval times or before.
Just of the top of my head, but there would be more info out there in google land.

Cheers
Kim

Chris,
More specifically a guidon is a cavalry regimental standard (or flag) - one to each regiment. It is embalzoned with the regimental device and any battle honours. Normally they are swallow tailed at the edge furtherest from the pike (or pole) to which the guidon is attached.

The equivalent for infantry regiments are the colours - two per battalion - the Regimental Colour and the King's or Queen's Colour depending on who is the monarch at the time they are presented to the unit. Last carried in battle at Liang's Nek in 1880.

Regards
Chris

Laying up of guidons at the Melbourne Shrine





and this guidon is in the chapel at Kapooka.

Remembering Arthur Currie: Canadian war hero
Updated Wed. Apr. 4 2007 10:27 PM ET
CTV.ca News

Arthur Currie, a farm boy from southwestern Ontario, entered the First World War without any professional military experience under his belt.

But using his brilliant tactical skills, Currie went on to lead the Canadian Corps to victory at Vimy Ridge, one of the bloodiest battles in recorded history, and he was credited with ultimately accelerating the end of the Great War.

"His slogan was pay the price of victory in shells -- not lives," said historian Jack Hyatt. "And if he did anything heroic it was that."

Currie was a towering figure at six-foot-two, but he wasn't what many people would consider a hero. He wasn't known for inspiring troops with Churchillian speeches; he was described as aloof by his troops and he even earned the nickname "Guts and Gaiters." But observers said despite his lack of skill with words, he still found ways to inspire the best out of his men, one by one and in small groups.

Currie prepared relentlessly for every battle, including the unexpected victory by Canadian battalions at the Battle of Vimy Ridge in April, 1917.

McGill University historian Desmond Morton said Canadians achieved the "impossible" during that attack, in which all four divisions of the Canadian Corps advanced on the Ridge as they came under heavy fire from three German defensive lines.

"Imagine crossing a canal under every kind of fire the Germans could bring to bear on you," Morton told CTV News. "How do you do that and not lose tens of thousands of men? Well, Currie did it."

One of Currie's war strategies was a French-invented technique called the "creeping barrage" in which troops advanced behind a rain of artillery which would fall just ahead of the front line.

From the French hilltop, the Canadian Corps was able to sweep into dug-in German positions, and the main position was in Canadian hands by the end of April 9.

Currie and the Canadian Corps were also successful at the November 1917 Battle of Passchendaele (the Third Battle of Ypres), although it cost the lives of 16,000 soldiers.

Currie was promoted to commander of the Canadian Corps after the success of Vimy Ridge. He became the first Canadian to lead the Canadian Corps, who had been led strictly by British commanders.

Currie was knighted on the battlefield by King George V and was described as "brilliant" by Britain's wartime leader David Lloyd George.

His pre-war story, however, is far from glorious. Before the Battle of Vimy Ridge, Currie was almost court-martialed for misappropriating $10,000 from a regiment in which he served to pay off a personal debt. The affair came to the attention of Sir Robert Borden, then Canada's prime minister, but he refused to court martial Canada's best soldier.

But those blemishes are but a blip in the radar for many, including those at Strathroy District Collegiate Institute, the southwestern Ontario high school Currie attended.

A history classroom there is named after him, an historic plaque commemorates his achievements, and a local legion hall bears his name.

"The second you know he's from Strathroy and you have that sort of connection with him, your ears perk up," said Strathroy student Amy Mendonca. "You listen a little more and you want to know more about him."

Nearly 3,600 Canadian students will be doing just that this weekend, as they join thousands of other Canadians in Vimy Ridge to commemorate the battle's 90th anniversary and honour this country's war heroes.

With a report from CTV's Graham Richardson

Internet Source: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...hub=CTVNewsAt11

Thanks for the guidon thing. So no one knows Gen O'Keefe.

Borden Battery, when was Currie knighted?

regards,

Chris.

After various internet searches, it is either 1917, directly after his feat or 1918, you never can tell unless it is a primary source, as most internet topics on Currie are exact quotes of each other! I would say they are close.

Turns out I think I posted the wrong pic in the first place, not that it really matters, and the book I saw was the Roland Perry account, which I think said the name under the caption as to who the fella previously knighted to Monash was.., I will check it out next time I am in Borders... until then I will keep searching!

Dave

He was also the first Allied general to enter Mons in November 1918 yet he graciously allowed the 5th Lancers to be the first British regiment to enter the town, as they had been the last to leave it during the retreat in 1914.

Currie was knighted in 1917 and most likely associated with either the Battle of Vimy Ridge and the Battle of Hill 70. However, I am having some difficultly finding the details of the knighthood. I am curious to find a source document and will continue to research this element in his biography.

Also, Currie and the Canadian Corps, after pushing 86 miles in 100 days from the Battle of Amiens and through the "hinge" of the Hindenburg line, did not graciously consent to standing to and enabling some of the British units to enter Mons first. However, as was repeated for the Free French forces entering the Paris in the Second World War - geo-political politics trumped battlefield movements.

Borden Battery

Dave, It is Roland Perry's book at page 384 that mentions General O'Keefe DMS Army KCMG as an entry in Monash's diary. In the King's diary (page 385) it mentions KCB for O'Keefe.

Chris

So Currie was the first to be knighted in the field for 200 years. Depending on Gen O'Keefe Monash was next or he can at least claim to be last?

Chris

Hang on mate.., surely we don't give up on 'our' bloke unless we see some solid evidence!! Even if Currie did beat him to it, and Roland Perry's claim is false,
then the proper Australian thing to do would be to somehow produce evidence that Currie grew on a farm in central NSW out Bathurst way, that he is actually
an Australian lad, who was forced to flee (to escape gambling debts after a lengthy game of 'two up') under an assumed name to Canada and gained a commission
into the Canadian Army.

I hear that one of his mare's may have even foaled Phar Lap on the same farm!

Dave

Now, now Dave.

Cheers
kim

Hi Dave,

Yes, yes, you are quite right. Nothing but conjecture from our dominion mates. Where is the evidence. I think Currie is an Australian name, now you mention it.

regards,

Chris.

quote: Currie was knighted in 1917 and most likely associated with either the Battle of Vimy Ridge and the Battle of Hill 70. However, I am having some difficultly finding the details of the knighthood. I am curious to find a source document and will continue to research this element in his biography.

See The London Gazette issue 30111 published 1 June 1917
"Chancery of the Order of
Saint Michael and Saint George,
Downing Street, 4th June, 1917.
The KING has been graciously pleased, on
the occasion of His Majesty's Birthday, to
give directions for the following promotions in,
and appointments to, the Most Distinguished
Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, for
services rendered in connection with Military
Operations in the Field,
To be Additional Members of the Second Glass
or Knights Commanders, of the said Most Distinguished
Order: —
CANADIAN FORCE.
Col. (temp. Maj.-Gen.) Arthur William Currie, C.B."

What is not so clear is when the accolade was actually conferred by KGV
The picture here appears on a couple of web-sites and clearly shows the ceremony taking place under canvas



But where and when? I'm still none the wiser
Does no one have a biography of Currie?

see The London Gazette Issue 30450 published on the 28 December 1917.

TUESDAY, 1 JANUARY, 1918. . .
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS
OF KNIGHTHOOD,
St. James's Palace, SW
1st. January, 1918.
The KING, has been graciously pleased to
give orders for the following promotions in, and
appointments to, the Most Honourable Order
of the Bath, for valuable services rendered in
connection with Military Operations in the
Field. Dated 1st Jan.-1918
To be Additional Members of the Military
Division of the Second-Class, or Knights
Commanders, of the said Most Honourable
Order:—
AUSTRALIAN FORCE
Maj.-Gen. John Monash, C.B.,

[and by coincidence the next-but-one entry is Currie's second knighthood *
CANADIAN FORCE.
Col. (T /Lt'.-Gen ) Sir Arthur William Currie,
K.C.M.G., C B]

So, Monash was knighted six months after Currie
And was dubbed by the King seven months after that on the battlefield
It would have be unusual for Currie to have been made to wait over a year for his
So I am inclined to think that he knelt by the king before Monash
However the fact that the occasion took place under canvas does not necessarily mean that it was on the battlefield.
If Currie did receive his on the battlefield, then why is there not more record of it, more photographs or more references to it in the diaries of those present at such an unusual event?
We need more help from our Canadian Pals on this


* There is a British naval story about Admiral A who sent a signal to Admiral B to congratulate him in similar circumstances; "Well Done. Twice a (k)night and at your age too"