Last weekend we visited the important German position of Bayernwald to find that in quite a few places the trenches were caving in and badly in need of some TLC.

Andy

However, this seemed to be the state of some of the trenches in more than one area.

Andy

Some work appeared to be taking place on these trenches in April, Andy. I wonder if the recent weather has set them back somewhat.

Dave

Hi Dave, Could well be, there was no sign of any work being carried out last weekend. Lets just hope that it is the recent wet weather and that some work is done to correct this before it gets too bad.

Andy

Mine shaft

Bayernwald

Well, it still beats this view... (shot late 90's at the same location)
Although this sad state did have it's own charm.

Roel

Sad to see the state of disrepair.

Your 2nd picture is quite worrying - and gives a reminder from a WW1 (and present day) perspective that trenches need regular maintenance.

Is there a Bayernwald equivalent to the the 'Friends of Lochnagar', i.e. a group of like-minded people who are willing to pitch in to regularly inspect/preserve such a site? I don't get over very often, but I'd be willing to lend support

It would be a great shame if school parties (and other tour groups) started to avoid Bayernwald on safety grounds.

David

I cannot really understand why there is a need to `restore` sites such as this. I think we may have seen the best of these places when they were not `improved` etc. The problem is that constant maintenance will be required in perpetuity and I think it would be good for people to consider this and other points when deciding to undertake such work. Must admit I appreciated it more like the photo (2001)

Norman

seadog,

With you all the way. Take the trenches on top of the Notre Dame de Lorette. Totally artificial. Your photo has all the atmosphere that has been lost at these restored sights.

My view anyhow!

Regards

TT

Thanks Trenchtrotter, I think we sometimes just need to stand in the places where the armies fought and suffered, and let our imagination work unfettered by (sometimes) bland recreations of a time long gone. It is not my wish or intention to disparage the work undertaken at Bayernwald and I would be the first to support the preservation of the bunkers and mine shaft. But perhaps sometimes less is enough.

Norman

I'm with you 100%, Norman.
How realistic are those reconstructed trenches anyway? They look realistic if you want to know how they looked the first days of the war. After that....
Roel

Bayernwald needs repair. Indeed.

The town of Heuvelland - (Wijtschate) will repair the trenches so the special engineer of the province of West-Flanders is in charge to do a 'solid' renovation that can stand for more than 20 years.

It certainly did!...

...

...though the health & safety brigade would have had a field day with this covered trench leading to a mine shaft (photos taken not too long after Andre's death to show the deterioration of the museum)...

It certainly did have a charm of its own before restoration. However, the restoration has taken place, for better or for worse, and, it seems a shame to allow it to decay any further than it already has. That was the point of showing the state as of last weekend.

Andy

I get your point, Andy. Now it's reconstructed it should be maintained.
But how original will it be, if it's going to be renovated to last at least 20 years, like Frie mentioned?
I doubt the troops in 14-18 built them strong enough to be in there for 20 years!

Roel

The points made by Roel are in my opinion extremely valid and call into question the whole ethos of the `restoration` and `improvement` of battlefield sites, in particular those of WW1. What is the purpose of such extensive recreations which cannot and will never replicate the original, this sometimes I regret to say seems almost `theme park` in its final manifestation. An alternative for Bayernwald would have been the preservation of the bunkers and (suitably protected) the mine shaft, whilst filling in the old museum trenches and clearing the site. Information boards would give a potted history and access would be unrestricted. After all, how original is the existing recreation and will the infrequent visitor leave with a sanitised impression of the horrors of WW1. A not dissimilar situation arises in Bristol where Brunels ship the SS Great Britain is now `as new` and resplendent as at her launch in 1843. Again the most evocative sight to me was when she returned from the Falklands as a hulk and the sight of this proud ship at the end of her working life was how she should be remembered, ditto Bayernwald. It is worth saying that what has been done can be undone.

Norman

Roel,

The engineer - expert - (2007 solutions) did already excellent reparations. The reparations will continue.

Concerning André.... He dug (his own ) trenches himself ! Nothing original, only money making...

He bought some pill boxes when the motorway near Geluveld was constructed. And he told ..... , he told....

Morning Frie

Can you finish off what seems a very interesting item please - seems to be missing.

thanks
Norman

Norman,

I appreciate your viewpoint, but feel it comes from a man who has the knowledge (no doubt the product of a deeply held interest) to imagine the view. Sadly we live in a world where the young generation do not go to a book or site like this to get the knowledge they need a trigger for their interest. If that means places such as this, which I think we all accept were reconstructions in any event, need to be maintained then so be it. If today's youth aren't given the opportunity to become interested then who in thirty years time will remember those who lost their lives?

Jon

Hi Jon

I of course completely respect your views and no doubt none of us is either completely wrong or completely right on the subject. I do however think that you cannot ignore the evidence of your own eyes when, for instance you see a crowd of laughing children standing in the `Passchendaele Experience` in the IFF Museum and wonder whether the presence of fake skulls etc under the floor is having any effect whatsoever on them. In complete contrast I was privileged to be at Tyne Cot when the remains of an `unknown soldier` was buried. A UK school party was there on a general visit clutching their standard-issue checklists, and getting bored, when some of them joined us at the short ceremony and showed a genuine interest and were moved by the proceedings when it was explained to them. I must say that these youngsters were a credit to their school and certainly understood what was happening. I see no reason at all to `dumb down` the subject and I firmly believe that to do so will have a retrograde effect on the understanding of those traumatic times.

Norman

I know Andre was a creative man in many ways -I'm one of the many he showed a painting supposedly painted by Hitler- but I never knew even his bunkers were fake.

Roel

The pillboxes he bought are now at the museum in Zonnebeke........... The bunkers at Bayernwald are the original..

Of course he did. He did actually dig some of them on the original lines though, using indentations present in the wood - in fact a couple were re-dug and are still now present in Croonaert Wood's modern guise (which , incidentally, mistakenly uses the line of a British post-1917 trench railway as one of the German comms trenches ). Much ,as you say, was pure fabrication though.

In my opinion, Croonaert Wood and Andre (for all his faults - some of which I hope do not get ressurected on here) were two of the most interesting features of the whole area in my formative years of battlefield wanderings.

Dave.

Hopefully, this will bring back a few happy memories for some....

To me Andre was one of the most colourful characters around. Always surrounded by battlefield-debris, grenades and wonderful stories.
He was one of the persons who sparkled my interest in WW1.

Roel

Croonaert - the post is brilliant!, never seen this before many thanks. Like Roel22 I believe that we owe Andre a debt and I will always remember creeping through the fence into the now dilapidated trenches etc, and the pure excitement of discovering pillboxes, the mine crater etc. One of the best sights to me was the giant pile of shellcases that seemed to get smaller year by year (maybe I did take one!).

Norman

Hi,

I agree with Dave, Roel and Norman.

Cnock

Bayernwald in the nineties

Bayernwald

Cnock - great pics, I am now getting very nostalgic and wanting to rush off to wonderful Belgium NOW. Must however wait until September. There must have been so many of us creeping around the old museum that its a wonder we did not bump into each other constantly!. By the way I recognise the shellcase on bottom right, I think its the one I brought back to its rightful home!.

Norman

Hi Norman,

Mr.Becquart



Hi Norman,

Mr.Becquart

The museum in the late seventies.

Regards,

Cnock

Many thanks Cnock for the photos, I did not see the museum but I certainly appreciated my visits to the site and they inspired my passion for the study of WW1. Mind you so did the good Belgium Beer in Ypres. Sometimes I think that we may have seen the best, but then a visit to the Hooge Crater Museum or the one in Zonnebeke restores my faith that there is still much to wonder at and appreciate in Flanders.

Best Wishes
Norman

Any further information on the state of repair at Bayernwald?
I am hoping to visit at the end of February 2008.
regards
John

Hi John,
I was there in early October. Some of the trenches were in good repair others were collapsing in in places. The bunkers had a few inches of water in them. Site well worth a visit though, as is the wee cemetery down the slope. Forgotten its name. Found shrapnel amongst the sugar beet as I walked to it.

Len

Important reparations are on the town budget of 2008. So works can only start in 2008.

Hello,
in the newspaper this week, new repairs planned in 2008 to restore bayernwald,This time the reparation should last for 20 years?!!!!
I hope they are right.
kind regards
sabine

And also planned in 2009. (every year)

Thanks everyone for the update.
I will give it a go, although end of February not the best time (weatherwise) to visit the battlefields.
Regards
John

Well, some rain adds to the feeling 'how it must have been...'
Have a nice trip!

Roel

When I tried to visit in the autumn the site had been secured, and there was a notice saying that one had to apply - I think it was to an office in Kemmel to arrange access. It was the last day of my visit so I didn't have the time unfortunately.

Hopefully I shall do better next time. The photographs, especially the earlier ones look really interesting.

Thank you Roel.
I have visited in snow, frost, fog and rain (and some sun) over the years and it does enhance onces preception of how it might have been.
The most poignant trip was about three years ago, there was heavy snow and we visited Plugstreet, I will always remember the quietness and the untrodden snow.

Thanks Keith for the information.
Regards
John

I visited the place in Sept last year, it's no real bother to obtain your ticket & code for entry from Kemmel tourist info. I can only add that when I was there, I was unable to visit on Sunday due to shooting in the adacent woods. So I suggest that you should plan your visit as soon as you get there !


Mick D

Was there in nov,you do need to go to the tourist informtion office in kemmel pay a couple of euros and they will give you a code to enter the gate,so you can gain access.Well worth a visit.

I didn't wish to imply that it would be a major problem; it was just unfortunate that the site was my last point of call late on a Sunday afternoon, when I had an early ferry to catch the next morning. Next time I will plan ahead.

I can add that it's well worth a visit, I visited last year and enjoyed it .

JD

Fascinating document. Many of the items listed appear to have disappeared or may be hidden in another part of the wood. Do we know just how much remains in addition to the bunkers, trenches and mineshafts?

BernardP

hi,

Bayernwald is only a minor part of the former site...