Hello,
Can anyone recommend Following the Tanks by Jean-Luc Gibot and Phillippe Gorczynski.
I'm trying to reseach a Captain who was a section commander with "E"battalion at Cambrai,winning an M.C. for the action at Bourlon Wood on 23/11/17.
Many thanks.
Stu.

Following the Tanks ranks with Trevor Pidgeon's The Tanks at Flers in that they are both labours of love and both are thoroughly recommended. Both give details of individual tanks involved and bear reading and re-reading.

I believe that the wife of a forum PAL was responsible for the english translation, which I found made easy reading.

Whether or not it adds to your research it is well worth acquiring (essential, even) if the tanks actions interest you.

Martin

Stu (or anyone else)

Does the Bovington Tank Museum hold records of tank actions in WW1?

Hi Martin,
Thanks for your reply,can you tell me if the info regarding individual tanks is taken just off the war diary or does it contain info on crews etc and actions involved in.
I have the M.C. group of the guy I'm researching,with the group came a copy of a hand written report made by one of the tanks crew,I'm trying to verify this info and have copies of all that is available through the PRO,but as yet have not found what I'm looking for,so far I only know what two tanks he was in charge off aswell as his citation.
Many thanks.
Stu.

Hi Robert,
I quite recently contacted the Tank museum regarding my reseach,unfortunately I was led to believe that they only really hold the same info as the war diaries.
However,I suggest that you contact them with your enquiry as they may be able to help you,but don't be suprised if they ask for a fee as some museums now do this.
Stu.

Stu - let me know who you're researching and I'll look him up in Gibot/Gorczynski
Cheers

Hi Graham,
Thats very good of you to offer,my man is Capt(temporary) Walter Emlyn Roberts,section commander of "E" battalion,his 2 tanks that he was in charge of were Eclipse II and Explorer
He was awarded the M.C. for the action at Bourlon Wood on the 23/11/17,his citation states that the tank he was in received a hit but carried on fighting in the enemies line until all ammunition was expended,although wounded he then returned on foot to arranged further ammunition and then returned to his other tank and engaged a further enemy position.
With his M.C. group came a copy of a hand written report by a Pte Dove who was awarded an M.M. for the same action,I'm tring to verify this info but so far have been unable to, so any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.
Stu.

Stu
“Following the Tanks” lists Acting Captain W E Roberts as being honoured with an MC on 23 November in action east of Moeuvres (i.e. towards Bourlon), in charge of No.3 Section (Eclipse II, Explorer and Earwig – curious name for a tank!). Eclipse was knocked out 350 yards east of the Canal du Nord. The book has an acccount by the driver, Private F S Dove, the only one of the crew uninjured – four killed, two wounded. “I remained with the tank until ordered in by 2/Lt. Fairbank”. Roberts is reported as giving directions to commanders of tanks (Eileen & Eve) near Round Trench (just over the Canal), but there are no more details.
Do you have any more information about him? Do you which tank he was in when it was damaged? How was the rest of his War?


Cheers

Hi Graham,
Thanks for looking him up for me.
Capt Roberts originally enlisted as a Pte in the 16th Londons(Queens Westminsters),to France Nov 1914,wounded GSW leg 1915,commisioned 11th Royal West Kents mid 1916,transfered sometime 1916 to Tank Corps,mentioned several other times in the battalions diary,one entry in Sept 1917 for unditching and repairing tanks under heavy fire,wounded in the face and back at Bourlon Wood(his M.C. action),hospitalised in the U.K. until sometime in 1918,not sure when he returned to action but was again hospitalised in the U.K. mid 1918 with V.D. which he had apparently been treating himself with Jayes Fluid and Sandalwood oil capsules OUCH !!!.
Not sure if he returned to active service,but was mobilized in 1921 for six months in the 4th London Armoured Car Section(never heard of that unit),according to the units address shown in his papers,I think they were part of his old unit the Westminsters,I wondered if this mobilization was due to the problems in Ireland,but there is nothing in his papers to suggest this.
As you can see I have a reasonable amount of research on him,it is however the report by Pte Dove that interests me as in my version he mentions Capt Roberts,but all i know is that he spent sometime in Eclipse II and Explorer but oddly enough there is no mention in the diary or my copy of Doves report of a tank called Earwig!I was hoping that the original copy of Doves report was kept with the battalions papers at the PRO but have so far not been able to turn up anything,the dealer whom I aquired the group from has not yet been able to contact the previous owner of the group to ask where this info came from.
All in all his is an interesting story but I feel there is more to discover,I'm also going to try a local newspaper search but after this I don't know what else to try.
I don't suppose there is a photo of him or any of the E battalion tanks mentioned in the book is there?
Thanks again for your help.
Stu.

Just noticed a (somewhat rare) English version of this book has appeared on e-bay.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/World-war-1-tank-boo...%3A2%7C294%3A50
I'm not the seller and I don't want to start a bidding war but..

Thought some-one might be interested

Stu

The Tanks on 23/11/1917
Eclipse II was commanded by Lt AK Tripe he was KIA 23/11/1917 and
Explorer was commanded by 2nd Lt F P Lenard

Also Pte Dove was listed as WIA on 23/11/1917 as well.

If you ever want to dispose of the group let me know as it would go well with my collection.

Simon

Bl**dy h*ll - it's at £100 and still 12 hours to go

Simon,

Have sent you a P.M.

Stuart

What did it finally go for?

Think I will dust my copy off and get it on there!

Regards,
Scottie.

I'm not the buyer. I'm afraid that in my opinion it contains too many errors to be worth that sort of money.

Gwyn

Stayed at £100

Crazy money!

"I'm afraid that in my opinion it contains too many errors to be worth that sort of money."

Are you going to give us an interesting review of its errors, Gwyn?

I'll provide a critique if you want.

The only part that lets it down is the listing of the tanks in the battle. As some examples of the problems:
- Eclipse II is said to be 2798, a Male. Eclipse II was a Male, but 2798 is a Female number. In fact 2798 was the number for the predecessor Eclipse.
- Both Egbert II and Flanders are said to be 2346. It is Egbert II that's wrongly identified, and Flanders was actually Flanders Fly.
- Empress II is given as 2590, which was actually the number for the predecessor Empress. Emperor II has the same problem.
- Faralone is said to be a Female, serial 2010, but this is a Male number.
- 2341 is said to be Extirpator, Exterminator and Fantan. Only the last is right. This is poor, as 2341 must be one of the most famous Mark IVs - it's the tank that started the Chinese eye tradition.
- Eldorado II is said to be 2587, but this is actually the number of its predecessor Eldorado, wrecked during Ypres III. Since Eldorado wasn't recovered until post war 2587 certainly wasn't at Cambrai.

I could go on as I'm afraid this isn't a complete catalogue of my issues with the listing. Unfortunately, because "Following the Tanks" is so highly regarded some of the problems are now cropping up in other books. For example, if one looks at pages 62 and 63 of Richard Pullen's "The Landships of Lincoln" (2nd edition) he has some terrific photos of Mark IV Male 2308, which he says became G2 Grouse and was lost on a tree stump during the Battle of Cambrai. "Following the Tanks" lists 2308 as G2 Grouse (although to be fair there is a footnote that says the listing was based on records dating before Cambrai). However 2308 G2 Grouse was actually ditched and burnt out on 31 July 1917 - which was a good while before Cambrai. In my view, which I recognise isn't widely shared, the tank order of battle in "Following the Tanks" is hugely misleading and this detracts from the remainder of the book.

That said, if you want to know about the tank actions at Cambrai there's probably no better book to read and the authors should be rightly commended for it. And none of this can take anything away from Phillippe Gorczynski's achievement in finding, raising and preserving the Mark IV Female, Deborah. But don't treat this book as if it's a Bible, and don't pay £100 for it.

Gwyn

The price indicates the fact that many recognise the usefulness of the book, and the difficulty in getting an English copy.
I had hoped that there might be a second print run associated with the 90th anniversary of the battle, as a number of people of this forum seeking information would seem to indicate a demand.

Gwyn, the details you give indicate to me that it would be worth publishing a revised list - are you conisdering doing so?

Stephen

Gwyn,

Thanks for your posting on this. I have amended my "Lincoln machines" database accordingly. Have you ever considered publishing your work on manufacturers numbers or indeed as delta has suggested a revised cambrai list?

Tanks3

Gents,
I know of a UK source that can supply it for about £30, mine signed by the author !

pm me to keep advertising rules in compliance.

Mick

My work on Mark IV numbers is a fairly academic work in three parts. Part one reconciles (well, to within one tank) Mark IV serials to production numbers and to orders. It helps identify which manufacturers built which tanks, though it doesn't solve that problem entirely. This part is completed but needs a small though important revision following a discovery made in June. Part 2 deals with the order in which Mark IVs were produced, and Part 3 deals with differences (usually minute or internal, or both) between early, mid and late production Mark IVs. I am still working on Parts 2 and 3.

It wasn't my intention to produce a revised listing for Cambrai, though I could probably do it without much difficulty. (I sense there is some demand...) It would necessarily need to acknowledge that there are some things we just don't know, and never will.

Gwyn

"It would necessarily need to acknowledge that there are some things we just don't know, and never will."

Words of truth, indeed - the more I research , the more gaps are revealed

Stephen

Hi Mick,
As a new member I dont have the ability to PM yet, but i am very interested in securing a copy of Following the Tanks so any info that you are allowed to pass on (per forum rules) would be greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Todd
todd_starkey66@yahoo.com

Gwyn,

Please do go ahead and produce the revised listing for Cambrai. I am sure you are correct in assuming there is a demand for this. I for one would welcome it!!

Tanks3

Moi aussi.

OK - it's on my "Must do!" list...

Gwyn

Hello,
As a new member I dont have the ability to PM yet, but i am very interested in securing a copy of "Following the Tanks" so if any member knows where I can locate one for a resonable price (not 100 pound plus) please contact me or please have Mick who stated in an earlier post of knowing a source do so. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Todd
todd_starkey66@yahoo.com

Yes, you are right to say that Foster made tank 2308 was lost at Ypres in July 1917, but that was not the end for this particular machine. As with many machines used in the Third Ypres, it was subsiquently recovered, repaired and reused for Cambrai in November 1917. It was lost when it became bellied on a tree stump at Cambrai and could not be recovered.

What is the source of your information BBB? Are you working from a primary source or from Richard Pullen's "Landships of Lincoln"? If you're using Pullen's book I think you're making the same mistake he has.

Whilst I accept that tanks were recovered from the battlefield at Third Ypres, repaired and re-issued, the fact is that if a tank needed recovering that was beyond the ability of the crew the tank would be struck off charge of the fighting battalion and taken on by a Tank Salvage Company. Once recovered it would be handed over to Central Workshops for repair, then Central Stores for re-issue to a fighting battalion. Thus for tank 2308 to be G2 "Grouse" on 31 July 1917, to be burnt out and then pass through a Salvage Company, then Workshops, then Stores to be reissued to the same company of the same fighting battalion and to be given the identity G2 "Grouse" once again is just too incredible to be believed.

Pullen makes his mistake, I believe, because he has ignored the warning in G&G that their identification of 2308 as G2 Grouse is based on a list compiled before the Battle of Cambrai - unfortunately they don't make clear just how long before the battle. I believe they have used a list from July 1917!

On the other hand of course, if you have some primary evidence that 2308 was indeed G2 Grouse at Cambrai I would be delighted to see it as it would increase our knowledge of tanks at the battle.

Gwyn

The works I.D. number of an individual tank always stayed with that machine throughout its life. If a tank was destroyed beyond repair it would be stripped for parts and a new tank with a new I.D. number would take its place. The four figure works I.D. number, such as 2308, would only ever appear on the tank to which it was allocated on the shop floor and would never be painted on the side of any other machine. This gave the military authorities tracability, so that they could follow any problems or mechanical failings back to the particular factory that produced the tank in question. If we are only interested in speaking about Male Mk IV 2308, I have a photograph showing 2308 at the factory, one of it on the battlefield after the Third Ypres and one of it being inspected by the Germans in the woods after Cambrai.

Months late as usual, I too would be interested in a revised order of battle, seeing as my grandfather was with the 11th Essex at Ribecourt.
(the preceding regiment had already gone through the village, so I don't know how much resistance there was - the casualty figures suggest relatively little. Pity they weren't so lucky on March 21st...).

Adrian

I agree with your understanding of serial numbers so that's great. I am interested in hearing that you have a photo of 2308 in woods after Cambrai. This is new to me and is the sort of primary evidence I was hoping you had. Are you able to post this photo, please? Or if not please send me a PM. The others are also of interest of course but they don't immediately add anything to what we already know - i.e. that 2308 was built at Fosters and that it was burnt out during Third Ypres. Thanks.

Gwyn