Dundee & Angus Branch of the Great War Forum - Meeting

Hi all, at long last, it’s about time that the Dundee and Angus contributors of this forum have a get together, the suggested time and venue is as follows:

When: 1400, Sunday 30th December 2007

Where: The Fisherman’s, Broughty Ferry, Dundee.

Our Scout section (Ian Robertson), sent out earlier in the year, has reported back to Battalion Headquarters that there is sufficient room and supplies to stage future operations from this location.

It is our intention to infiltrate this location, secure a patrol harbour, from which various patrols will be sent out on raids to procure pints of Scotland’s finest. The harbour protection party are to secure a table and proceed with banter and tall tales (The taller the better ). It is expected that plenty of pints will be captured and thoroughly interrogated!

If you are up for it, it will be great to meet up.

Aye

Tom McC

Tom,

Glad to report that I'll be there.
I'm sorry to see that you descibe the meeting as "Forum Pals". In my mind "Pals" refer to groups of extemely brave friends and workmates who joined up together and had to experience the worst deprivations of even the most basic human comfort while facing unimaginable horrors, mutilation and death...................on the other hand as we will be drinking in Dundee ,................

regards

Ian

Sorry to say that I will be back in Aberdeen, having missed you by about 4 days. Have a good time.

I look forward to leaving the Eastern approaches to Dundee, at Monifieth and withdraw to Broty', and with detemination close in on a few pints and severely annoy them

Tom

Ian,

"Glad to report that I'll be there.
I'm sorry to see that you descibe the meeting as "Forum Pals". In my mind "Pals" refer to groups of extemely brave friends and workmates who joined up together and had to experience the worst deprivations of even the most basic human comfort while facing unimaginable horrors, mutilation and death...................on the other hand as we will be drinking in Dundee ,................" Good to see you'll be coming along. Ian as Dundee did not have a pals battalion, and as a point of principle you are quite correct, to that end I am going to amend it tae chums

Here's a link to the Dundee Street Poet (for any ill-aquainted with Dundee vernacular, here it is in all its resplendent glory):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EflfRbrYkjE

Tom R,

It's a pity you can't make it. I cannot get up to Dundee till in between Christmas and Hogmany, but hopefully there will be more get-togethers in the near future.

Black Jock,

Good to see in true Highland Division style that you are working on a flanking manoeuvre

Aye

Tom McC

Yup!, "Right flanking, follow me!"

Will be there for sure.

L/Cpl N Munro 171052 1st Carnoustie Volunteers.



Neil

Here! 'ees no' bad. Izzee?

eh thot it wuz braw, ehv no herd wurdz like dockie,dub, cundie an tollie fur agiz! An auld favrit wiz "giez twa bridies; a plen ain an an ingin ain an a!"
Mind o'thon boy that uzti hiv a column in thi tully or journil ivri week cried "Meh Dundee"? Davie Phillips wiz ez name eh think.

Gentlemen, perhaps before ensconsing yourselves in the comfort of Jonathan Stewart's hostelry and availing yourselves of its amenities, you might care to take a stroll up to the building at 51 Queen Street. The former Regal Cinema and latterly Kingsway Bingo Hall was built in c.1870 as a drill hall for the 1st Forfarshire Artillery Volunteers, formed in 1860 to garrison Broughty Ferry Castle, and who were the origins of the Territorial RGA unit stationed at the Castle at the outbreak of the Great War. A further Great War connection is to be found inside the Hall. The panelling in the foyer and corridor areas (Mahogany, now painted) was salvaged from Kaiser William II's yacht the Homeric, after she had served as a Cunard Cruise ship following the First World War.

The former 1st Forfarshire Artillery Volunteers Hall:


The Castle itself, of course, was the base of the RGA manning it as a Coastal Defence at the outbreak of the Great War, and was equipped with antiaircraft guns and searchlights during the Second World War:



Finally, Broughty Ferry's long association with the Artillery is evidenced by the long-established Gunners Bar on King Street - within easy staggering distance of your arranged venue at the Fisherman's Tavern!

ciao
GAC

Hi all,

Good to see that we've almost a full battalion turnout

GAC,

Thanks very much for the very useful information; along with the RGA Volunteers, interestingly, there was also Submarine Miners at Broughty for a while. I liked the story about the mahagony, trust the Kaiser's wood pannelling to end up in Broughty Ferry. The 5th and the 4th Bns of the Black Watch had various war stations here until both battalions went off to the front - in the order given. That last photo of the Bro'ty Castle could well be our view from The Ship - another possible rallying point.

Aye

Tom McC

Ian,

I've noticed that the Dundonian quote referring to Forfar's potato-less answer to the Cornish pasty, is now emblazoned a T-shirt in the Dundee Tourist Information Office . Thought you would enjoy the poetry.

Aye

Tom McC

Tom,

Not only did I enjoy it but I e-mailed the link to my old Mum. I paid my usual Sunday visit earlier today and when I went 'round she was still chortling away! she will now post it to my Uncle in Oxford, who although he has lived most of his life in foreign parts (Oxford) is still a keen student of local history and dialect.
Many thanks for posting the link.

Regards

Ian

GAC,

Unfortunately the Regal/ bingo hall foyer was demolished many years ago. The photo you posted is the evevation around the corner in Church street. The entrance fronting Queen street is now a car showroom forecourt and the interior of the hall has been converted (I think) to provide the Garage with workshops.
I am pretty sure that Jonathan Stewart has sold the Fishermans to either a brewey or an outfit like Enterprise Inns
I used to occassionally go in the Gunners many years ago but I must admit I find it a bit driech, perhaps we'll end up there after we have visited some of the other pubs that are within staggering distance of The Fisherman's such as The Ship, The Ferry Inn, Jolly's, The Old Anchor inn, The Royal Arch, Jaques, Doc Ferry's, The Fort, The Eagle, The Post Office bar or the Occidental; after that lot we'd propably not care much!
Very smart picture of the castle.
I take it from this post and some of your others that you are from the area, no chance of you making it for the meet?

regards

Ian

Hi Ian,
As I understand it, the foyer of the old cinema bingo hall facing onto Queen Street was not the area containing the panelling from the Kaiser's yacht, which seems to have been used in the original drill hall and would hopefully have been saved by that being made a listed building in 1990, as documented here: DrillHall

I've not heard that Jonathan Stewart has sold the Fisherman's and am sure he was still mine host as of last year when I last imbibed in that area, when he also owned the Royal Arch, also in Broughty Ferry, and The Speedwell Bar - better known as 'Mennies' - in Dundee's Perth Road.

For the benefit of those who've never been there, that list of Broughty Ferry pubs Ian gives are located in something like a square mile! It used to be said that there were more millionaires in Broughty Ferry than any area of comparable size in the UK - I guess that applies to pubs nowadays!

And yes, the Gunners Arms is a bit of an old man's pub, isn't it? But I'm sure the squad of Forum Pals who will hit the area on December 30 could kick-start some life into it!

I don't come from Broughty Ferry myself, but some of my paternal family originated there. Unlikely I could make the December meet but I'll keep an eye on future dates - I hope you guys will establish an ongoing Forum outpost in the area - and hopefully can catch up with you all sometime in the New Year.

Regards,
George

Can I indulge in a little minor hi-jacking, please, folks?

While you are on the razz in Bro'ty, could you raise a glass, please, to Joseph Alexander Grimond Kirk - born Broughty, possibly a pre-war Territorial at the Castle, then emigrated. Returned as an ANZAC, went to Gallipoli, managed to wangle most of the rest of the war as a batman at HQ. Never returned to has family, went back to OZ... but was bright ginger, loved a good drink and a good fight and had a strong accent right to the end in 1979. I think he'd appreciate a glass being raised for him!

And... can I blag a big favour off someone please? If someone wanders by "Carbet Castle" at any point, could they take a snap of the house opposite, please?
(this one: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/education/bed/ferr...rbetframe.html)

That's where we think he was born - when I visited in 2000, I was fooled by the census into thinking they lived in Monifieth...

Thanks in anticipation,

Adrian

Adrian,

I'm sure we won't have a problem raising a glass (or two) in memory of this gentleman.

I'll get a photo of this house for you soon

regards

Ian

Thanks, Ian. If I were closer I'd join you, but we aren't that way until summer.

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

Broughty Ferry was in the Burgh of Monifieth until 1913, what was his relation to the Grimonds of Carbet Castle?

Tom

I will be in South America but might possibly think of you all. My wife is from Dundee so next time you have a get together I might be able to get her to drive me up so she can see her school friends and I can sink a couple of beers with you all.
A toast to James Young Duncan ( see below).
Aye
Malcolm

Hi Tom,

Yes, I found out about Bro'ty being in Monifieth - but not until I'd been!

Jo wasn't a relation as such, but the whole family worked for the Grimond household - first evidence 1861 census, last known four generations later in about 1955! My great grandmother was, as far as I can tell, named for the occupants of Carbet Castle as three of her four christian names were shared with staff there in 1881!

Jo's father was their coachman, his wife's mother was their nurse. I'm sure his wife was involved too, but the 1871 census has faded into illegibility. At least four of their offspring were also in service at Carbet (and Kinnettles), and the daughter of one of them worked for Amy Webber (nee Grimond) in Cambridgeshire until she died about 1955 - some record!

If you have an interest in the Grimonds I'd love to hear about it - though email/PM may be better, as this is a bit off-topic now!

Adrian

Hi Adrian

I am interested in that I worked in one of Grimonds works, there is an interesting post going on at the moment with "Dundee Fowk" click to the attached link

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=87490

Tom

GAC,

Much appreciate the reminder about the 1st Forfarshire Royal Garrison Artillery. In 1892, numbers 1st to 6th Batteries were in Dundee (1st being the 1st Position Battery) and 11th & 12th were in Broughty Ferry. HQ in Albany Quarters, Bell Street. There are plenty of photos of the batteries practicing at Barry Links. With the Haldane reforms resulting in the formation of the TF in 1908, this order of battle changes somewhat.

The Tay Division Submarine Miners Royal Engineers consisting of one Company plus a HQ (increasing to 4 Companies) was also based at Broughty Ferry. Its short lifespan lasted from formation in 1888 till 1907.

I believe there may be some photos and articles of both of these units in the museum within Broughty castle itself. Again, thanks for the reminder.

Malcolm,

Hopefully, there will be more get-togethers next year, and it will be great if you can come along.

Aye

Tom McC

I wonder if the Castle has other relics not on display that would be of interest?

tom

Thanks for that detail, Tom. Do you happen to know what the unit designations were for the establishment at Broughty Castle after it became a TF? I'd also be interested to learn if you have anything on how this TF from the Castle went to war after 1914 - was it broken up and dispersed amongst other established or new RGA units or did go off to France intact?

Tom [Black Jock] - interesting point. I know a lot of museum authorities have some real treasure troves of military material which is kept permanently in storage, never to be viewed by the public. This seems particularly true of some local authority museum trusts, where an element of pc has led to an emphasis on things like the social and gender aspects of local history, with the military artefacts in their collections often all but excluded. I guess any military material which could be on display at Broughty but isn't would probably be held by the Dundee Museum and Art Galleries at the McManus Galleries in Dundee city center.

ciao,
GAC

George
Re the Regal Cinema
There is an old picture house here in Stonehouse, the Rex, that was fitted out with the mohogany panels, staircases, chandelier, light fittings,foyer and pay booth etc from the kaiser's ship. Launched as the Columbus, 34,400 tons, 17th Dec 1913 at Danzig, it was ceded to Britain in 1919, and sold to the White Star Line and renamed the Homeric. It was sold as scrap for £74,000 and broken up by T W Ward at Inverkeithing in 1936. It took 14 railway waggon's to transport the contents for the interior of the picture house
to Stonehouse, the picture house being only a few hundred yards from the railway station.

Pictures of both cinema's here
http://www.scottishcinemas.org.uk/scotland/index.html


Wull

That's fascinating, Wull - I only knew of salvage from the Kaiser's yacht going to Broughty cinema and hadn't known of the Rex at Stonehouse benefitting in a similar way. What's incredible is that, given the high attrition rate for old cinemas, both of these have survived more or less intact! I hope that protection orders will ensure that both continue to survive and with them the remnants of the Kaiser's yacht! Thanks for the background detail to the Homeric, too - this could probably have made a good thread in the Ships and Navies section of the forum.


Regards,
George

GAC,

It would be interesting to find out what happened to the Broughty Ferry RGA; I don't think they were converted to RFA. At Dudhope there was a Battery of RFA TF, which I think may have been converted from RGA, also, the Highland Ammunition Column was also located there. They were part of 2nd Highland Brigade RFA, with their HQ in Brown St, Dundee (other Batteries were located at Arbroath & Leven). I believe these went on to serve in the Highland Division.

Aye

Tom McC

Adrian,
i haven't forgotten your request. I've been away the past week down south and I was hoping to get the picture over the weekend however outside forces (wife and daughter ) prevented me getting down to Queen street until after dark. I'll do it this weekend as I'm away during this week. Sorry for the delay

regards

Ian

Thanks Ian - I may be tardy replying, as I'll be off anything other than dial-up (if that!) for a few days over Christmas. But I'll be shouting to the rooftops when I do get online!

Adrian

Got my Leave Chit signed by CINCNAVHOME, hoped to meet u's on the 30th December at the Fisherman's, if you don't mind a mere L/Cpl (And a matelot at that!) drinking with the Officer's Mess!

quote name='Doc' date='Dec 19 2007, 08:57 PM' post='822613']
Got my Leave Chit signed by CINCNAVHOME, hoped to meet u's on the 30th December at the Fisherman's, if you don't mind a mere L/Cpl (And a matelot at that!) drinking with the Officer's Mess!
[/quote]
Doc,
'Bout time the below decks are gracing us with their presence. Needs a matelot to cross the big water of the Tay, and join the other ranks, in case you dont know the Fishermans, here's a photo. Look forward to meeting you.

Tom
Click to view attachment[

Tom,
Many thanks for the pic, it helps, as I don't have a suitable chart for those waters!

Doc,

Excuse the pun, 'good to have you onboard’; and its good that you're making the effort to come over from Fife.

Aye

Tom McC

Ian,

A bit more about the Dundee Street Poet:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...endid=114608148

Aye

Tom McC

Adrian,

I managed to take your pictures yesterday. It looks as it now may be used as staff quarters by the Indian Restuarant next door which is in a converted church.

Click to view attachment

Queen Street Elevation

Next
Click to view attachment

West Elevation

Next

Click to view attachment

Rear Elevation with entrance to Camphill road.

If you want the full size pictures; P.M. me with your e-mail address and I'll send them to you.

House looks a bit like Father Ted's on Craggy island!


regards

Ian

Cheers To Neil for telling me about this. I've never been on a lot recently as work has taken over.

I'll be delighted to be there at 2.00pm on the day. I live in the Ferry so its easy for me. I've never been in the pubs there since about 1/2 hr ago.

The Fishermans has been taken over by Belhaven and in my humble view the best pub by a mile is The Royal Arch.

I'll readily admit my overall knowledge of WW1 will be nothing like you guys ( i'm only into The Somme ) but thats not the point, i'd be delighted to meet you all and will even bring a fiver to see me till 6.00pm when i'll retire to go to Fat Sams !

I'm at work the next day so take it easy - ok nae chance !!

Bob Paterson

Bob,

Great that your coming along. Fisherman's is the Forming Up Point, the final objective is...is...is...okay, we'll make it up as we go along

Aye

Tom McC

Cheers Tom,

I'll bring Mrs P with me - its the least i can do to thank her for tramping The Somme with me !

Plus of course she'll take the car - Forthill Road uphill is apparently hard going after a few pints apparently !

Bob

Just a wee question - How would I recognize you guys! As a Matelot, I avoid the habit of walking up to strange men in pubs and starting a conversation in case of misunderstandings, though that reminds me of a story involving an bar in New Orleans some years ago!
At least the CINCNAVHOME will coming along to keep an eye on me!

We will be wearing pink carnations and carrying copies of the Peoples Friend.

Neil

Doc,

Look for a guy who's wife looks like Kate Moss. At that point you'll know thats not me.

It'll be easy - it will be like a Still Game outing to The Fishermans, i'll be Winston and my wife Isa !

I'll put on especially My Uncle Albert/ Jack Hawkins brown duffle coat. Locheelads would not be seen dead with The People's Friend !!

Bob

Hi All

It'd be great to put (real) names to faces BUT couple of questions:-

Are foreigners from Fife allowed??? and

Is it a boys only zone or is a mere female welcome???

Not used to meeting strange men in pubs you see.........

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
Loobylou

PS Have never bought a People's Friend (though I do know how important it is to the Dundee economy!)
I do however possess a Forum Badge

We'd be delighted to meet you. As Bob says Still game lookalikes sounds about right.

Neil

Hi Neil

Thanks for your reply - any resemblance to Isa is purely unintentional!

Is it in order to bring some photos (Western front) etc & some general questions?

This'll make a change from boring the family...

Looking forward to meeting you
Jane

Doc,

I will wear my Western Front Association button for ease of recognition. Either that, or, you come dressed as the sailor, and the rest of us can haggle over who wears: the motorcycle cop, construction worker, leather biker, and the native-American Chief's outfits .

Jane,

Great! bring some pictures for us to have a look at, but pease bring scans or copies of the originals, just in case anything happens to them.

Aye

Tom McC

Its the American Chief for me!, I'll wear my "red feathers"

Tom

Click to view attachment

[quote name='Tom A McCluskey' date='Dec 27 2007, 02:55 PM' post='826137']
Doc,

I will wear my Western Front Association button for ease of recognition. Either that, or, you come dressed as the sailor, and the rest of us can haggle over who wears: the motorcycle cop, construction worker, leather biker, and the native-American Chief's outfits .

Jane,

Great! bring some pictures for us to have a look at, but pease bring scans or copies of the originals, just in case anything happens to them.

Aye

Tom McC



Tom,

I think I'll not wear my uniform as all my medals give a backache!

Don the Doc

I left Dundee for Aberdeen today. Absolutely appalling Staff work! I am extremely envious of you. Have a really good time.