Three questions please.


1)What was the largest gun used in the East African campaign?


2)The gun shown in the picture was photographed in East Africa during the campaign. Is this possibly one of the guns savaged from the HMS Pegasus?


3)Photographs of the Pegasus guns published on the net and elsewhere reflect the same steel wheels but not the Recuperator Ram/Recoil Cylinder evident in this picture. Can it be that the cylinders could have been fitted to some of the Pegasus guns and not to others? The gun in the picture appears to be Royal Navy 4-inch Mark 7 Breech Loading gun.


Looking forward to your replies.

Kalla

This appears to be from the same action
similar gun & men in similar kit (what is that hanging over the shoulders of that man?)



Blumberg has it in his book 'Britain's Sea Soldiers' and he captions it
"4-inch guns in Action in East Africa"
To be honest, I'm not yet up to this chapter of the book, but it opens with a ref to
"Early in 1916 as there was a shortage of heavy artillery, the Admiralty agreed to send out four 4-inch Mark VII. B.L......"
This appears to be 'over and above' the two 4-inch Naval guns from HMS Pegasus - (the battery was known as HMS Peggy) – quote: "With this force was another battery of two 4-inch Naval guns from HMS Pagasus"
From this it would appear that there were six 4-inch guns involved, but only two of them from Pegasus

caveat - I am open to correction here as I have just skipped though this chapter on seeing your post

regards
Michael

The "thing" is a spine protector - these were issued in hot climates, as at the time it was thought that heat stroke was caused by overheating of the spine! If you look close everyone is wearing one - issued kit.
You might find this link interesting - there is are refererences to spine protectors and also the Pegasus guns.http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol066ed.html

Thank you very much David and Michael for your advice. Some very usefull information indeed.

Just to add to the matter, I have also been given the attached image of an unidentified gun used in the East African Campaign. Clearly a different carriage to the one in my previous post but the gun also provided with the cylinder on top of the barrel. Any idea of the size of this gun and whether it could also be one of the non-Pegasus examples imported to GEA?

Have a good day,
Kalla

Hi,

The Peggy guns information I've drawn from the "Konigsberg" book by Kevin Patience and Kevin has gone into detail about the guns used in Africa. I've permission from Kevin to use the photographs so I've included them here plus some additional information (from the book) for you and other folks interested in the Pegasus Guns.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/He...toVZanzibar.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/He...GunsMombasa.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/He...ca/PeggyIII.jpg

The Pegasus guns were salvaged of which five of the eight were fitted with wheels and carriages. One was left unmounted and being given serial numbers commencing with the number 53,56,236,257 and 266 respectively to marry up with the names Peggy I-VI and with the author identifying No 53 named Peggy III and Number 56 being identified as Peggy IV. The author has also sighted that two other guns were beyond repair. The 3 Pdrs were also fitted for land use as well. Two of the 4 inch guns were allocated to the islands defences, four were taken to Mombasa and one was mounted in a gun emplacement around the entrance to Kilindini harbour.

The unmounted 4 inch was railed to Kisumu on Lake Victoria and was mounted on the foredeck of the steamer Winifred. The gun saw action in supporting the landings at Bukoba in June 1915. The crew manning this gun were detached from HMS Hyacinth.

Peggy III and IV were taken to Maktau and became known as No 2 Heavy battery under command of Capt Orde-Browne and manned by Royal and South African Navy crews.

Their action at Kondoa Irangi on 6 July was replied ironically in kind by a Konigsberg Gun. As the author has noted two naval guns that fought at sea now engaging on land.

No 2 Battery was disbanded in late 1916 and togther with the Winifred gun were returned to Zanzibar and stored.

I hope this little bit of information may assit you and others.

Best Wishes.

Helen

Hi Kalla,

The unidentified artilley piece looks like a QF 4.7-in gun.

Best Wishes

Helen

Has anyone gone looking through the Admiralty records to look for the paper trail on the guns?

The photographs show No 11 Battery ( renumbered to No 15 whilst in country) , Mk VII 4 " Naval Guns manned by the RMA. These are not the guns from the Pegasus.

No 3 Heavy Battery renamed as 10 Battery was armed with the Mk III Pegasus guns.

Roop

Thanks Helen, very informative and certainly of great help.



The four holed steel wheels of the Peggy gun on the LHS of the first Patience photograph appear to be of the same design as the steel wheels shown in my original post. Can this be? I was under the impression that the four holed wheels was a local, once off, design produced for the guns at Zanzibar shortly after its removal from the deck of the Pegasus.
Could the fact that the 4-inch Mark VII guns sent out by the Admiralty later on, had been provided with wheels either exactly the same, or very close to the Zanzibar design, indicate that the four holed wheel design was part of a standard Admiralty design?


Roop, good of you to confirm that the gun in my original post formed part of No. 11 Battery and is indeed a Mk VII. Any idea where I can obtain details/ drawings of the Mk III BL gun (Peggy gun)?



A Merry Christmas to all.

I'm off to go and see what's under the tree; indications are that I will not be diappointed.....

Both wheel designs have their origins in an earlier age. Naval guns had been fitted with this wheel type from around the boer war period, similarly the "triangular" design.

One wonders where the wheels used in East Africa actually came from? Maybe the Cape.






Roop

I have no firm evidence that any Koenigsbeg guns were at Kondoa Irangi and have comment to the contrary gained from German prisoners.

Roop

Helen
Have you any comment on the two Pegasus guns captured by the Schutztruppe at Ngominyi?
We have been discussing these in thread: [url="http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?


And a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you too.


Good photograph of the Pegasus gun Harry, thanks.
It provides a clear view of the upper barrel area confirming that no Recuperator Ram/ Recoil Cylinders were fixed to the top of the gun.

Have you seen the following:

"On the 29th October a small post at Ngominyi was compelled to surrender to a very superior strength of the enemy after a resolute and gallant defence. Two naval 12 pounder guns lost here were retaken by us in the course of operations almost immediately afterwards. Captain Clerk, commanding the post, was killed." ( From the Smuts Despatch printed in the London Gazette 17 April 1917).

Enjoy your day.
Kalla

Hi Guys, I've replied to the other thread, but in short the author hasn't expanded on the guns history.

I'll send an e-mail to Kevin and ask.

Best Wishes

Helen

Hi The author Kevin Patience has indicated in his book "Konigsberg" on page 135 quote" The second Dar es Salaam gun under Lt Kohtz, exploded while being used at Kondoa Irangi. The barrel was returned to Dar es Salaam but was unrepairable and buried. His replacement gun was removed from the Goetzen at Kigoma, mounted on the other wheels and used to shell Kondoa Irangi. It was nicknamed 'Coughing Clara' by the South African troops when it shelled and woke them every morning at first light. It was moved tot he defence of Tabora, and abandoned before the town was captured on 19 September 1916."

I hope that this may assist you and others.

God Bless

Helen

Lovely pic of the Pegasus gun Harry, thanks. It appears to be well maintained sporting what seems to be a fresh coat of paint.
In contrast, your pic of the Konigsberg gun posted on the other thread shows fairly dense vegetation surrounding the carriage. Wonder if this is cleared from time to time.

Kalla

I have re read all of my references and still have no evidence of a Konigsberg gun at Kondoa Irangi and maintain that there were no such guns there. Can we have some indication of original documentary evidence please.


Roop

Roop, are you looking for more concrete evidence than the following:

Page 202 Tip and Run ( Edward Paice 2007) ........ "He began with daily bombardments from the Burungi Heights by two naval guns, one from the Konigsberg and one landed by thr Blockade-runner Kronberg, in an attempt to soften up the South African Defences; "

And further down the page ........."the German guns again began their 'Daily Hate', the stupendous noise of each boom reverberating around the hills that enclosed Kondoa.


Greetings
Kalla

Hi Kalla,

Yes, although there are numerous references to Konigsburg guns at Kondoa, my information from german prisoners suggests the opposite and infers that both guns were landed possibly by the Maria von Stettin. The artillery duels themselves are well recorded. I shall check Edward Paices reference with this regard.


Roop

Kalla
Lettow in his "Reminiscences" on page 135 states:

"We had brought with us two naval guns, one 3.5-inch and one 4-inch, on travelling carriages, and at once got them into action. From our dominating position they bombarded, apparently with good effect, the enemy's camps south of Kondoa."

On page 138 he states:

"Our artillery - the two mountain guns and two field howitzers, which had come out in the second store-ship, had also arrived - fired on such favourable targets as presented themselves. The buildings of Kondoa-Irangi, where General van Deventer had arrived, were also fired at occasionally by our 4-inch gun."

Crowe, an artillery expert, in his "General Smuts' Campaign in East Africa" on page 25 states:

"From her (the Konigsberg) they obtained ten 4.1-inch (10.5 cm.) and some 3.46-inch (8.8 cm.) guns. Later they received a battery of 4.1-inch (10.5 cm) howitzers .....by the ship which ran the blockade and made her way into Sudi Bay in March 1916."

On page 119 he states:

"On May 9th the enemy occupied all the high ground on the south-east of Kondoa, having driven back our piquets. At about four p.m. they opened fire at long range with a naval 4.1-inch gun."

"Meanwhile they kept up a continuous gun fire with their 4.1-inch and field guns on the village."

Thus it is probably correct to say that at least one ex-Konigsberg gun was in action at Kondoa Irangi in the early stages of the battle.

The problem with books is that they do not always tell you the actual facts, and a lot of conjecture can creep in. Kevin Patience's "Konigsberg" is a fine book but it lacks the professional details (such as an index & list of sources verifying facts) to be a true history, and that is a great pity.

Edward Paice's "Tip and Run" is one of the best attempts yet to tell, in an entertaining fashion, the facts about a poorly-documented but long and confusing campaign fought over a vast swathe of Africa. Paice has a well organised index, bibliography, chapter notes and Appendices but even he makes omissions and indulges himself in sweeping statements.

Anderson's "The Forgotten Front" has all the necessary pieces but contains blatant little errors that make you wonder about the overall validity of the book (should you find that you can plough your way through it).

Kondoa exercises a vital point when he wants verification - without that history is only conjecture.

Have a Happy and Prosperous New Year
Harry

Roop

The artillery are 'not my thing' but Hordern, in the Official History, makes mention of "a Konigsberg 4.1-inch gun used at Kondoa Irangi was firing home-made iron shell filled with black powder." in the footnotes on page 280.

This footnote referred to the text "on the afternoon of the 9th a German gun opened from South Hill, compelling withdrawal of the outposts on Rock Rabbit Ridge".

Regards

Steve

Thanks for that Steve, I had missed that in re-reading and it does indicate one being there early in the action as suggested by Harry.

Roop

"Kondoa exercises a vital point when he wants verification - without that history is only conjecture."




So true Harry. Thanks for a very detailed and for me, very informative reply. You have certainly prompted even further reading on the matter..

Yet another source outlining the movements of the Konigsberg guns is the book by R.K. Lochner titled Kampf im Rufiji-Delta. The map on page 327 indicates that two guns made it to Kondoa, one from Dar-Es-Salaam which came to grief on 18/5/1916 and a second which was taken from Lake Tanganjika (Gotzen), via Kondoa, to Korogwe where the "termination date" is given as 18/09/1916.



May you have a very Happy New Year.
Kalla

Thanks again for the extra snippet re Kondoa gun Kalla. Thus my prisoner report is actually correct for the period in question ie 4th June onwards whereby only the "imported" guns are said to have been in action.


Roop

Hi Harry, Thanks for the additional information. I didn't get round to my books on this topic (as I've both the said books) that Roop has requested and also I still need to say hello to Kevin in Africa.

Roop, may I ask please what sources you are using.

Take care guys and thanks again.

Helen

Hi Helen,

My source is one of a collection of letters and diaries from men of the Hull Heavy Battery RGA (11th Howitzer Battery) who were at Kondoa Irangi and Chenene etc.

If you go to my profile and click Gallery you will see some familiar places.

Thanks everyone for your input.


Roop

Thanks Roop

Referring to this:

The four holed steel wheels of the Peggy gun on the LHS of the first Patience photograph appear to be of the same design as the steel wheels shown in my original post. Can this be? I was under the impression that the four holed wheels was a local, once off, design produced for the guns at Zanzibar shortly after its removal from the deck of the Pegasus.
Could the fact that the 4-inch Mark VII guns sent out by the Admiralty later on, had been provided with wheels either exactly the same, or very close to the Zanzibar design, indicate that the four holed wheel design was part of a standard Admiralty design?


I have just read the following in Britain's Sea Soldiers (Blumberg), page 395:

"Meanwhile all the other Royal Marines had been collected into one Battery
at Dar-es-Salaam which was organised in four sub-sections, each capable of acting
independently. Some reinforcements had been sent to Lindi to receive one of
the 4-inch guns which was sent there from Voi, and on 10th April, 1917. Captain
Ellison and Lieutenant Guy with one sub-section and equipment left Dar-es-Salaam
to join them. On their arrival they found that the gun had been fired with the
tampeon in, the muzzle was blown away and one man badly wounded. Ellison
with great initiative got four inches cut off the muzzle and brought the gun into
action and the German 4.1 inch gun was silenced as soon as the British gun opened
fire. This gun was fitted with narrow wheels, but Captain Ellison told the General
Officer Commanding that he had seen two wheels at Zanzibar which would be
very useful and these when brought over in H.M.S. Thistle and fitted proved
invaluable for the work."


Can it be that the gun shown in the pictures posted at the start of this thread is the one that is referred to in the Paragraph above?
Thanks to input provided earlier the gun in the pictures has been identified as a non-Peggy naval example. Given that the wheels are the same as the four holed wheels manufactured for the Peggy guns at Zanzibar, can the wheels be a spare set which which was then brought down in HMS Thistle to be fitted to the gun at Lindi?


Kalla

Kalla,

Given your paragraph above, it is possible this gun is the one referred to. It seems the muzzle is damaged compared with other photographs of similar guns.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...st&p=823376

Roop

Thanks Roop,

This is about as good as I can get of the barrel, the image is slightly out of focus. I'm no barrel expert but will try to compare to others if I can find good enough images.

Kalla

Guys

Some more questions than answers.

Another version of the images in posts 1& 2 http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?phrase="3271847"


It is very likely that one or more of the railway or harbour workshops (of what would post WW1 become the East African Railways and Harbours), could have had the skilled men and machine tools to build the steel disc wheels shown. There are not only 4-hole and 6-hole versions but the form of the ribs / spokes also varies (see also the Kevin Patience images and the Pegasus Gun at Mombasa). It would seem that as in the ABW these extemporized carriages have steel disc wheels of widely differing designs. British practice was to use wooden spoke wheels. The bore of the Pegasus Gun at Mombasa in post # 16 also appears to be closer to 3 inches than 4 inches but perspective and scale are funny old things.


In Chapter 32, Blumberg says the RMA took "four 4-inch and four 12 pr 18 cwt guns on field carriages to assist the South African Forces in the campaign against German S.W. Africa." These equipments were dismounted 4-inch BL naval guns and the newish 12 pr 18 cwt (3-inch 50 cal) anti-destroyer guns. The latter were upgraded versions of the old (but famous 'Long 12') 12 pr 12 cwt (3-inch 40 cal) and had been developed for the new battleships (Dreadnaught herself had 27 (or 24 or 22). The British 4-inch naval guns should not be confused with the German 10.5 cm naval guns. There were also 3 batteries of 4.7-inch QF naval guns in GSWA – some of actual ABW vintage and some with new carriages manufactured in the Salt River (Cape Town) workshops of the South African Railways. The ABW carriages were both of the extemporized and the howitzer versions. The 'Salt River' carriages have distinctive wide tyred steel disc wheels with 6 holes. Some or all of the 12 pr guns were also fitted with these 'Salt River' pattern wheels. There was also a battery of 4-inch QF naval guns from Hong Kong. The 4-inch BL, 4-inch QF, 4.7-inch QF guns and 6-inch howitzers accompanied the South African Heavy Artillery to England where they were swapped for the new 6-inch 26-cwt howitzers.

It is very likely that some of these pieces were in fact sent to Gallipoli (possibly Serbia as well) and others in fact could even have been recycled back to GEA.

The gun in post # 4 has the howitzer carriage but with wooden spoke wheels (possibly also of ABW vintage).

The gun in the top image of post # 10 was one of the 4.7-inch QF guns at Colenso in December 1899 and February 1900 – the other 4.7-inch QF gun had a long wooden trail with steel disc wheels but with 4 OFFSET holes. This is much like the 4.7-inch QF shown in the bottom image on the top of Swartkop (modern spelling) and is much like the image of a gun from HMS Monarch targeting one of the forts outside Pretoria in this image.

http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?phrase="3298008"

The wheels with 'triangular' holes in post # 12 look very much like those of the "The Princess Louise" on page 128 of Padfield's biography of Admiral Sir Percy Scott OR much like the wheels in image P04871.005 from the Australian War Memorial and which shows "An unidentified British Naval man with a British 4.7 inch naval gun" in the Boer War.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cst.acct_master?surl=888091909ZZZUDFGUSQJCM45331&stype=3&simplesearch=&v_umo=&v_product_id=&screen_name=&screen_parms=&screen_type=RIGHT&bvers=4&bplatform=Microsoft%20Internet%20Explorer&bos=Win32




Carl Hoehler

Carl,
You have added some interesting additional information thanks.

Included in your post you mention the following:

"There were also 3 batteries of 4.7-inch QF naval guns in GSWA – some of actual ABW vintage and some with new carriages manufactured in the Salt River (Cape Town) workshops of the South African Railways. The ABW carriages were both of the extemporized and the howitzer versions. The 'Salt River' carriages have distinctive wide tyred steel disc wheels with 6 holes. Some or all of the 12 pr guns were also fitted with these 'Salt River' pattern wheels. There was also a battery of 4-inch QF naval guns from Hong Kong. The 4-inch BL, 4-inch QF, 4.7-inch QF guns and 6-inch howitzers accompanied the South African Heavy Artillery to England where they were swapped for the new 6-inch 26-cwt howitzers."


I've attached an image taken in Simonstown Docks showing a 4.7" gun landed by HMS Doris for support of the British troops during the ABW. The wheels were designed by Captain Percy Scott and manufactured by the Simon's Town Dockyard artisans and reflects yet another version of steel discs fitted locally, this time sporting four offset holes.

Kalla

Kallag

One of the best pictures I have seen (and I have seen many).

This is very likely the real "Joe Chamberlain" that was at Magersfontein. One of the batteries in GSWA has very similiar wheels but with 8 holes that are now symmetrical.

I am halfway thro' my 'catalogue of differences' and would like to use this image. You can send me a PM with the attribution required and source.

Carl