Hello,

I would be interested to be informed about any relocation of WWI monuments and the reasons why and why not.
Being confronted with a possible case I would like to gather precedental information.

14th (Light) Division memorial relocated from Railway Wood to Hill 60. From memory, this was because of subsidence of the ground at the original site.

Don't like to contradict you Chris, but I am pretty sure it was due to land of the Bellewaarde estate being sold off in the 70s. The memorial was then, as now, in the care of CWGC, so there was no major issue about it being moved. Although it was indeed a shame it was moved, as it is out of context at Hill 60.

Johan - I think we could answer this better if we knew what sort of memorial you are talking about?

You could well be right, Paul. The old memory, you know ...

I'm specifically looking for arguments why such monuments should not be displaced generally seen.
I should not be convinced but how about general public not so fanatic as us, communinity responsables, local farmers and so on. So any well thought arguments are very needed.

The Mothers' Memorial in Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia was moved from a busy street intersection to a nearby park about 10 years ago.

Although the move was strongly condemned at the time - moving the memorial from the heart of the city was seen as disrespectful - the memorial's location means more people attend the Anzac Day services (2,000 - 3,000 people each year). Not only that, but it is common to see people at the memorial any time, reading the names, laying some flowers, etc - without any risk from, or interference to, the traffic.

Not sure if this is what you were after, but in the case of Toowoomba's Mothers' Memorial I feel the move has been a significant factor in remembering the young sons of Toowoomba who dies in all wars.

Bob

March War Memorial was moved a few feet in the 60s due to road improvements but this really did not affect its central location - several times over the years the local authority has made proposals to move it either to the park or market place, but these have always met with opposition due to the local populations wish for it to remain in its very central location

Chris

Just the problem with the March Memorial - the only road thru town runs both sides of it

Chris

Gwernymynydd, Flintshire.
Small village on a long uphill road. The memorial was originally on the road outside the main village. It was moved three years ago a quarter of a mile downhill into the village center, outside the primary school. The original location now has a stone plaque stating that this was the location of the memorial.
Safety and convenience seems to be the main motivator
Geraint

Two memorials near me have been moved - both traffic related.

One moved between WW1 & WW2; the other about 20 years ago.

The moves reflect the development of the areas from basically rural villages to modern suburbia.

John

Liverpool's Cotton Exchange memorial was moved in the 1960s when the building's classical frontage was replaced by a box-like edifice. 'Tommy', as the statue is known, was dismounted from his tall plinth and put on something smaller so that he could be seen from the road. Stone plaques with names of the fallen were removed and stored by the developer who later said they could not be replaced, and were subsequently lost.
Daggers

Don't forget about the relevantly recent move of CREWE ( Cheshire ) War Memorial in the town centre.

Steve

http://www.crewe.tv/2006/11/crewe-war-memorial.html

JVB

Have you contacted the War Memorials Trust to ask them of any examples & the reasons?

I could tell you about the memorial moved from a church into my house but that's probably not the sort of move you are after

Andy

Mercian Volunteer mentioned the recent relocation of Crewe's war memorial.

There was a very impressive campaign mounted by those who wanted it to remain where it was and I think it was, in the end, touch and go whether it would move at all. In the event it was moved and I have not heard anyone suggest that it doesn't look ten times better where it is now than where it was.

If the council are thinking about moving your local memorial the only suggestion I would make is that you look at their plans with an open mind. Sometimes change can be for the better!

Tom

Southward, on the "Chemin des Dames", "Fusilliers Marins" monument was moved (approx. 200 meters) few years ago for a larger motorway building.

Click to view attachment

The Memorial Gates in St Georges, Telford were moved a few years back. They were at the entrance to the local park and they wanted to widen the gates to allow cars easier access. They moved them about 20 yards, putting the gates at the head of the main footpath through the park and replaced the original plaques with new ones at the same time.

Tom Kilkenny (post # 14): "If the council are thinking about moving your local memorial the only suggestion I would make is that you look at their plans with an open mind. Sometimes change can be for the better!"

Woking's memorial got moved when the town centre underwent major redevelopment in the 70's; in its new location - well, not so new now - it takes pride of place as the central feature in a well used pedestrian square fronting the library and close to the civic offices. The original location was appropriate when the memorial was first built, but, with changes to the surrounding roads, buildings and the areas usage, today's location, is a far better one than had it remained where it was. Woking Council - which has frequently been criticised for its poor planning decisions over the last decades - did, at least in my opinion, manage to get it right on that occasion.

NigelS

A couple more

The RND memorial has been moved twice from Horse Guards to the back of the Naval College at Greenwich and then back again.

The Basrah War memorial was moved by Saddam out into the desert, which judging by the state of the two CWGC cemeteries in Basrah was probably a good thing, (Brits side of the road) all the grave markers knocked over and most gone, being used as a kids football/pitch mortar base plate area. Indian other side of the road just over grown with most grave markers damaged.

Peter

Here in Kamloops, BC, Canada, the old cenotaph on a hillside site still stands, but the November 11th Veterans' Parade and Memorial Service has been relocated to a riverside park where there is a flat site, much more accessible to elderly marchers, and with more room for what seems to be a growing attendance. A new cairn has been built at the new site, but there are no plans to do away with the old memorial.

The Lloyds Bank Memorial was moved from Lombard Street in the City of London to one of their buildings in Bristol. A new memorial was to be built in their new HQ building in Gresham Street in the City.

See this webpage for more details.



Mike S

Hello,

I would like to comment on the relocation of War Memorials. WW1 memorials like demarcation stones, battlefield markers of the 1st and 2nd US ID were erected by those who are - sadly enough - no longer amongst us. The problem with those "old" - sometimes - simple monuments - is that nobody maintains them anymore. The Battlefield markers of the 1st US ID are all gone but one at COEUVRES ET VALSERY near Soissons (there were 10, erected short after the war, in 1919). Eversince 1998 I try to save the "memorial". Almost 2 years ago the 1st US ID finaly got involved. But sofar nothing happened. We (WAR RELICS ARCHIVES) wanted to maintain the memorial on a VOLUNTARY BASIS, we had an agreement with the Mayor of the village ... and than, after 80 years, 1st Division rushed in ... Which means that all the things we tried to organise were invain.

Preserving the markers of the 2nd US ID is another story (24 such markers were ercted in 1919, they still exist but are in a poor shape). After 3 years - of making a lot of noise (by us) because ABMC wanted to "destroy them - the 2nd Division is willing to pay again for the maintenance of these simple monuments. Our plan was to move some of these concrete BOULDERS to the center of the villages involved (erect them next to the villages own war memorial) , if the village was volunteer to maintain the memorial. Now 2nd US ID rushed in, this is no longer an option. The idea was to let primary schools adopt the memorials (which is a idea we picked up in The Netherlands, and should be done everywhere).

In helping preserving - direct and indirect - 15 demarcation stones - it was sometimes better to move the marker. One example. A few years ago i was asked to go and identify a marker in the Alsace reagion. A few days later i sent a dossier to the Mayor of the village. He proposed to move the marker 1.5 kms from it's original standing place (!) ... But he guaranteed me the preservation of the small monument (which he did).

The marker stands in a square in between the school and the townhall ... every day, children, villagers, vistors stand face to face with the saved monument ...

Another example. The marker - demarcation stone - at (3 kms from the VIMY memorial) VIMY is in danger. I asked the superintended at VIMY to move the marker to the site, so in the future, perhaps, this marker would survive many of the others (3 such markers were payed for by Canada, Canadians who visit VIMY ridge aren't even aware of the exisistence of the small memorials). But it's not their intention to SAVE the (Canadian) demarcation stone(s), which i regret.

Don't get me wrong, i'm against moving memorials, just as a sport ... But if it means that the memorials can be preserved, for, another 40-50-60 years ... well I now what i would do ...

Yours Truly

Rik Scherpenberg aka demaman

Le Point-du-Jour (Scottish) Memorial?
Moved, and now, unfortunately, we have 'lost' the original trench lines surrounding it.
The new location just doesn't seem the same after that.
Regards,
Chris.

Hallo all

One of my local's, Harrow Green War Memorial, stands on what
is now (but wasn't then) a large 'traffic island/roundabout'.

This island, in a moat of never ending traffic, is guarded (rather like the
apes on the Rock of Gibraltar), by a host of Leyton & Leytonstone's
top brass wino's and crackheads.

It's location is precisely the reason it goes unnoticed by the public,
or worse, is looked upon as a place of filth and uninviting. This disdain
can also easily lead to it being knocked down without regret in the name
of a road widening scheme. Added to which the location is doing nothing
for the monument other than causing it to be fast eaten by pollution.

Any metal work will soon be stolen, and probably go unnoticed by most
drivers who dont look at it anyway, there's too much traffic and three
major junctions plus East London driving to contend with!

We have many parks and open spaces in very close proximity where it
could easily be moved to, and be made accessible to school children,
relatives and the mildly curious, etc.

I cannot think of a case against moving it.



Kind regards all!

Harrow Green

The War Memorial in Hanham Nr. Bristol where I live was moved on the 1950's from its original location in the centre of a 'T' Junction as 'it had become a danger to traffic' (although I think the reverse was probably the case!).

Its present location in the grounds of the Folk Centre at the end of a pathway with lawns on either side and entered by the 39-45 Memorial Gates is ideal.

Dave

I was sent as a young child to look at the Wood Green (London) War Memorial and find my g'uncle's name. I went back 4 years ago and swear the Memorial is on the other side of the street. Anyone remember??

the war memorial at Porth S Wales was resited due to road improvements
tafski

The War Memorial at Advie, is being reconstructed at a new location. A lorry knocked the top off the old one.

Guyhirn War Memorial was moved in the 1980s,from its river bank site of the 1920s,due to the building of the new A47 Guyhirn Bridge & Roundabout system,it was moved to the grounds of Mary Magdelene Church Guyhirn,which has since become redundant,posing the possibility of yet a further move in the not too distant future should the Church & Grounds be sold & redeveloped???

I used to live just along Harrow Road from At Home Dad's Harrow Green memorial...

The memorial in Knighton, Powys, used to be sited at the junction of Church Road and Station Road. Heavy vehicles accessing and exiting the late remoulds factory in Mill Green via Church Road I imagine posed a considerable threat to the memorial. It was moved (I think in the 1980s, maybe early 90s) to the site of the former (now demolished) police station at the junction of Station Road and the main street, Bridge Street/Broad Street. A photo of the memorial in its current location appears in Memorial Man's 'Roll of Honour' website. A scan of an early 20s OS map showing the old location appears in Graeme and Gwyn's 'Drill Halls' thread.

Jim

The Orange Order Memorial at Thiepval, was moved to the back of the Ulster Tower from the road side near by, after been hit and damaged by a drunken driver one night.

I have a book which states that the Orange Order Memorial was moved because it was illegally sited, permission for it not having been confirmed before it was placed. I will endeavour to provide the source if required (I can't remember which book it is mentioned in so it will mean leafing through the lot!).

Moving closer to home, one of the two memorials which are the subjects of my website, the memorial at Scholes, near Leeds was moved in 1951 to coincide with the festival of Britain. It was previously situated (with the plaque for WWII) on the wall of the parish council building underneath the window and clock facing the main road through the village. It is now mounted on a sloping tablet set into a raised garden within another garden, all laid out by the village youth group in preparation for the Festival of Britian in 1951.

The municipal Leeds City Memorial was moved from City Square to the Headrow, but off the top of my head I cannot remember the date, however I think it was between the wars.

Cheers,

Nigel

Here's one I wish WOULD be moved!

Warrington War Memorial is on the "Bridge Foot" island in the town centre and as the road network has "developed" over the years it has become increasingly isolated by the busiest junction in the town, a road where brave men fear to drive.

Just to the north of the memorial is the River Mersey as it passes through the town, whist the other two sides of it are adjacent to 5 lanes of traffic. There is a footpath to it, but first you have to get across the 5 lanes of traffic!

I understand that there have been various schemes to relocate it into the grounds of the Town Hall, but nothing has ever materialised.

[quote name='Dogflud' date='Jul 25 2008, 12:23 PM' post='968546']
I have a book which states that the Orange Order Memorial was moved because it was illegally sited, permission for it not having been confirmed before it was placed. I will endeavour to provide the source if required (I can't remember which book it is mentioned in so it will mean leafing through the lot!).


Hi Nigel,

Thats interesting, have a look at this old post

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...+Order+Memorial

Peter

Couldn't agree more! Breaks my heart every time I walk past it - there are wreaths there but sadly one's attention is drawn to the aforementioned 'leytonstone's finest.' The problem is that there there is no real park in Leytonstone, on the other hand in Leyton there is cornonation gardens park (although that already has a war memorial which because it is in a public park is well maintained.).

Not sure if this is relevant or not but - the Polytechnic had three memeorials to it's dead none of which are in it's original place (is this a record?). An inscription was added to the pre-existing statue of Quintin Hogg that sat outside the Poly at 309 Regent Street - it was moved in (I think) the 1920s probably for traffic reasons. The memorial in the foyer of 309 regent Street was moved in the mid 1950s from one side to another (probably because of a redesign of the layout of the building). The third, on the POly Sports Ground in Chiswick, no longer exists courtesy of enemy action in World War Two.

Pals,
Thumbing through my library the other day, I came across this picture of the 14th (Light) Division Memorial - but see the caption:
Click to view attachment
[Source: Flanders Then & Now - The Ypres Salient & Passchendaele by John Giles]

The source is a good book, but it's more of an album than a work of scholarship. I've heard the reason for the move was to do with land ownership too, so I'm more inclined to go with Paul here.
Cheers,
Mark