JOHN HOGG, the son of Alexander Hogg of Todshawhaugh, Roberton, Hawick died aged 28 years.
The Roberton War Memorial near Hawick lists John as having served in the 7th New Zealand Regiment.
There are only 2 John Hoggs listed on the CWGC and neither has the correct name for his father.
His service file doesn't appear to be in the NZ archives and there is no trace on CWGC?

HELP!!

The Roberton War Memorial near Hawick is incorrect there is no such WW1 NZ regiment as the '7ths'. There was a 7th reinforcement draft that left New Zealand in mid and late November 1915. Regimental numbers with the prefix "7" referred to the Canterbury Mounted Rifles. The CD Nominal Roll lists about 9 men named Hogg and have John in the other names. Archives lists 6 men named Hogg with WW1 files. Memorial refers to "died 28 years" so not killed in action etc? Did he have any other names? Does the local authority have any documentation on the war memorial that might provide you with any further information? Check out the following website - it has a Wellington Regiment reference to 7th to indicate where those men came from:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-nz/nzef.htm

Can't really help much without some more information.

Zack

That one really is a puzzle! Is there any way the parents were separated? (Sorry, trying to think how he could have NZ next of kin, but be on a memorial back in Scotland)

This chap (who didn't die in the war, but who knows if he may have died soon after it, and after the CWGC cut-off date?) fits the 7th reinforcements AND the Canterbury Mounted Rifles 7/ prefix on his service number - but his Mum lived in Gisborne, NZ.

Full Name: John Brydon Hogg
Forename(s): John Brydon
Surname: Hogg
War: World War I, 1914-1918
Serial No.: 7/1743
First Known Rank: Corporal
Next of Kin: Mrs J.G. Hogg (mother), 211 Clifford Street, Gisborne, New Zealand
Marital Status: Single
Enlistment Address: Post-office, Rongotea, New Zealand
Military District: Wellington
Body on Embarkation: 7th Reinforcements
Embarkation Unit: Canterbury Mounted Rifles
Embarkation Date: 9 October 1915
Place of Embarkation: Wellington, New Zealand
Transport: HMNZT 32 or HMNZT 33 or HMNZT 34
Vessel: Aparima or Navua or Warrimoo
Destination: Suez, Egypt
Page on Nominal Roll: 335

A John and Peter Hogg, aged 24 and 21, sailed from Liverpool to Auckland on 22 June 1912.
Both are listed as Farmers

Grant

Thanks, Grant. That gives us a good point of reference. Here's Peter

Surname HOGG
Given Name Peter
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 52210
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title Mrs A
Next of Kin Surname HOGG
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address Todsahaugh Roxburghshire Scotland
Roll 69
Page 5
Occupation Labourer

Here is Peter's page on the Auckland War Memorial cenotaph. He survived the war.

He was originally on the reserve list:

Surname HOGG
Given Name Peter
Category First Reserves
Last NZ Address 61 Hobson St
Occupation Waterside Worker
Recruiting District Auckland

Then he was conscripted in 1917 (Military Call Up, NZ Gazette 1917, page 911)

No matching John that I can see...unless he was on the reserves list with no NOK listed. All those who served had NZ next of kin (their mothers).

Surname HOGG
Given Name John
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address C/- Mrs Turkington School Rd Fairlie
Occupation Manager
Classification B

Surname HOGG
Given Name John Henry
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Kaimatira Rd Wanganui East
Occupation Shearer
Classification F

Surname HOGG
Given Name John McLean
Category Second Reserves
Last NZ Address Durietown Wanganui
Occupation Post-office Clerk
Classification A

What regiment is that Allie ?

Grant

Sorry, I'll edit in the link to his details.

27th Reinforcements Auckland Infantry Regiment, A Company

Allie

I wonder if he could have died of the Spanish Flu whilst on the reserves list? Although, would that qualify him to be on the memorial back home?

Edit Unfortunately the Wanganui cemetery records aren't online. The Fairlie ones are, but the John Hogg there is definitely not one of the above men on the reserves list above. Not to menion being several decades away from the time frame we have in mind.

Allie

Is Peter mentioned on the Roberton War Memorial ?
If he was it might confirm that they were brothers, seeing as Peter gives his Nok as Todsahaugh Roxburghshire Scotland.
It needs some one to check the Scotish birth records.

Maybe John married a local girl, then the Nok would have been local. They did emigrate 2 years before the war, time enough to get married and have a kid (if he was a fast worker :-)

Grant

Unfortunately all the men named John Hogg who actually were in the NZEF (as in, not on the reserves list) had their mothers as Next of Kin... with NZ addresses. Hence me pondering the parents being separated. Hmm, unless she was a widow who'd left Scotland to join her sons? No wives, sorry. Good thought, though!

Surname HOGG
Given Name John
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 44281
Rank Rifleman
Next of Kin Title Mrs Mary J
Next of Kin Surname HOGG
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address 407 Victoria Street Hastings
Roll 60
Page 18
Occupation Fruit-packer

Surname HOGG
Given Name John Alexander
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 2/2437
Rank Gunner
Body or Draft Eighth
Unit or Regiment Field Artillery
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address 15 Cannington Rd Maori Hill Dunedin
Next of Kin Title Mrs J
Next of Kin Surname HOGG
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address 15 Cannington Rd Maori Hill Dunedin

Surname HOGG
Given Name John Anthony
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 52425
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title Mrs A
Next of Kin Surname HOGG
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address Main Street Huntly
Roll 67
Page 23
Occupation Miner

Surname HOGG
Given Name John Brydon
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 7/1743
Rank Corporal
Body or Draft Seventh
Unit or Regiment Canterbury Mounted Rifles
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Post-office Rongotea
Next of Kin Title Mrs J G
Next of Kin Surname HOGG
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address 211 Clifford St Gisborne

Might be a Ma - in - law?
or he could have died before the war and the brother(?), Peter blamed his death on the war

Grant

Eureka! (I think - or is this a massive coincidence?)

Hogg as a middle name!

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Hogg
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 10/534
Rank Private
Body or Draft Main Body
Unit or Regiment Wellington Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Ohakune
Next of Kin Title W
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Address Todshauhaugh Hawick Scotland

Died at Gallipoli, May 1915. Cenotaph page here.

He could have been with the 7th (Wellington West Coast) Co. of the Wellington Infantry?

Allie

Whos a clever girl then ?

how you going to explain the J Hogg on the memorial ?
...and why didnt my search pick it up, when i put Scotland in :-(

I think your tonights Mars bar winner, well done, that should make Mr Robertson's day !

Grant

Well, I'm guessing he lied about his name, tagging the 'Smith' on the end. However, that depends on if there is also a John Smith who served in the NZEF on Derek's memorial. In which case, this isn't our man.

The CWGC doesn't give us any extra clues.

Name: SMITH, JOHN HOGG
Initials: J H
Nationality: New Zealand
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Wellington Regiment, N.Z.E.F.
Date of Death: 06/05/1915
Service No: 10/534
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 76.
Memorial: LONE PINE MEMORIAL

Allie

Ohh God, I'm going to have to lie down before I fall over.
Once I calm down I will re-read what amazing info you've all contributed - brilliant stuff folks.

Allie - it looks like you've killed 2 birds with 1 stone - but also created some new questions.

The 1901 census:

Alexander HOGG b.17.9.1860 d.3.3.1940 Hawick, Head of household
Agnes HOGG nee JEFFREY b.10.10.1858 d.23.8.1946 Hawick, Wife

John HOGG b abt 1888 Gordon, Berwickshire
Mary HOGG b abt 1890 Durham d. 1987 Hawick
Peter HOGG b abt 1891 Traquair
Barbara Jeffrey HOGG b.15.1.1892 Traquair d.1982 Hawick
Thomas Davidson HOGG b. abt 1893
Annie HOGG b. abt 1896

As Grant points out, Peter and John emigrated to Auckland, New Zealand on 22.6.1912 from Liverpool on the 'Essex'.

Ok folks,

My initial enquiry was about a JOHN HOGG from Todshawhaugh, Roberton and you have found a JOHN HOGG SMITH from Todshawhaugh, Roberton.
The 2 seem to be the same person.

HOWEVER:

In the "Hawick Express" of August 10th, 1917 is the following:

"Private John Smith, New Zealand Regiment, died of wounds in France on the 22nd June, 1917. He was a Grandson of the late James Smith, Harewood Mill, Rulewater".

I have not been able to find any details of the above. Is this the same chap again? Even though the dates of death are 2 years apart?

For conjecture, the Scottish naming practice of this time was for the Grandson to take the name of the Grandfather.
Has a clerk with dyslexia had a hand here?

Should the report have read ""Private John Hogg, New Zealand Regiment, died of wounds in France on the 22nd June, 1917. He was a Grandson of the late James Smith, Harewood Mill, Rulewater"?

Any comments?

Apart from John Hogg Smith which I've already listed the details for...trawling through all the men named John Smith, the following are on the nominal roll with non-NZ NOK, or NOK that are not close family (so they could be from anywhere).

Surname SMITH
Given Name John
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 6/3162
Rank Private
Body or Draft Seventh
Unit or Regiment Canterbury Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address C/- D Hampton Culverden
Next of Kin Title G
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address Seggieden Kennethmont Aberdeenshire Scotland

Surname SMITH
Given Name John
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 13/738
Rank Trooper
Body or Draft Second
Unit or Regiment Auckland Mounted Rifles
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Greens House Whakatane
Next of Kin Title T
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Brother
Next of Kin Address 1 Market Hill High St Sheddall England

Surname SMITH
Given Name John
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 8/4222
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title John
Next of Kin Surname IRONSIDE
Next of Kin Relationship Brother-in-law
Next of Kin Address Pembroke Otago
Roll 28
Page 15
Occupation Coach-Driver

Surname SMITH
Given Name John
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 37558
Rank Lance Corpl
Next of Kin Title William
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address Baillieston via Glasgow Scotland
Roll 55
Page 39
Occupation Miner

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Bremner
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 11/429
Rank Trooper
Body or Draft Main Body
Unit or Regiment Wellington Mounted Rifles
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Kaponga Taranaki
Next of Kin Title Robert
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address 34 Park Drive South White Inch Glasgow Scotland

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Edward
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 62161
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title James
Next of Kin Surname OLD
Next of Kin Relationship Friend
Next of Kin Address Te Kuiti
Roll 75
Page 15
Occupation Farmer

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Hardy
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 71413
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title Mrs J J
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address Welby Grantham Lincolnshire England
Roll 81
Page 11
Occupation Driver

Surname SMITH
Given Name John James
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 6/354
Rank Private
Body or Draft Main Body
Unit or Regiment Canterbury Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address C/- C White Flaxmere Blenheim
Next of Kin Title John
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Address 31 Strathleven Rd Brixton London England

Surname SMITH
Given Name John James Walter Mason
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 3
Regimental Number 57321
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title E
Next of Kin Surname YOUNG
Next of Kin Relationship Friend
Next of Kin Address Ward Street Ellerslie Auckland
Roll 70
Page 21
Occupation Driver

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Leslie
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 75284
Rank Staff Sergt
Next of Kin Title Mrs F J
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Mother
Next of Kin Address The Grange Crookwell New South Wales Australia
Roll 88
Page 16
Occupation Salesman

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Michael
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 35487
Rank Rifleman
Next of Kin Title D
Next of Kin Surname MCDAIRMID
Next of Kin Relationship Brother-in-law
Next of Kin Address Waitati Otago
Roll 47
Page 13
Occupation Labourer

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Pickering
Category Nominal Rolls Vol 4
Regimental Number 71908
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title Mrs K N
Next of Kin Surname ROBERTSON
Next of Kin Relationship Friend
Next of Kin Address Main Road Lower Hutt
Roll 81
Page 19
Occupation Engine-fitter

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Richard
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 12/2120
Rank Corporal
Body or Draft Fourth
Unit or Regiment Auckland Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address 48 Ponsonby Rd Auckland
Next of Kin Title J W
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Relationship Father
Next of Kin Address Willow Lane Norwich England

Surname SMITH
Given Name John Sydney
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 1
Regimental Number 10/691
Rank Private
Body or Draft Main Body
Unit or Regiment Wellington Infantry Batln
Marital Status S
Last NZ Address Matemateaonga Eltham
Next of Kin Title J S
Next of Kin Surname SMITH
Next of Kin Address Ruthlyn Wellington Shropshire England



These John Smiths were killed in the war:

Gunner John Black Smith 2/2543, DOW 6 October 1916. NZ NOK

Private John Brown Smith 12/251, KIA 23 April 1917. NZ NOK.

Lance Corporal John Charles Smith 13644, KIA 13 September 1918. NZ NOK.

Private John Ernest Smith 10/1340, KIA 16 May 1915. NZ NOK.

Rifleman John Hardy Smith 71413, DOW 10 October 1918. NOK Mrs J.J. Smith (mother), Welby, Grantham, Lincolnshire, England

Corporal John Henry Smith 8/3761, DOW 22 September 1916. NZ NOK.

Private John Phillip Smith 59471, DOW 29 April 1918. NZ NOK.

Corporal John Richard Smith 12/2120, KIA 26 September 1916. NOK son of Mr and Mrs John Smith, 20 Kimberley Street, Unthank Road, Norwich, England

Private John Smith 8/4222, DOW 11 June 1917. NOK listed as John Ironside (brother-in-law), Pembroke, Otago, New Zealand. So could be from anywhere outside of NZ originally.

Private John Smith 48288, DOD 19 February 1919. NZ NOK.

Private John Smith 12/943, KIA 7 June 1917. NZ NOK.


The only one that stands out as a vague possibility for "Private John Smith, New Zealand Regiment, died of wounds in France on the 22nd June, 1917. He was a Grandson of the late James Smith, Harewood Mill, Rulewater" is Private John Smith 8/4222, DOW 11 June 1917 whose NOK was listed as his brother in law. However, it's 11 days out in date, and we'd be basing it on spurious reasons, really, just becuase the brother-in-law is next of kin, not someone else.

My feeling is that John Hogg Smith KIA and John Hogg on the memorial are probably one and the same person. However, we'd probably need John Hogg Smith's date/place of birth off his service record to confirm it (although we only have "abt 1888 Gordon, Berwickshire" for John Hogg ).

That being said, it doesn't get us past Pte John Smith killed 22 June 1917, as John Hogg Smith was killed in May 1915. *head desk*


Allie

Hi,

Or maybe the clerk "assumed" that Smith was the Grandsons name.

CWGC site is down this week end, so we can't check on Pt John Smith, Maybe Allie can from her end when she wakes up :-)

Grant

Hello!

I've just managed to register on here after talking to Derek through another site.

I cant believe how much information you have collated!!

I believe John HOGG is my Great Great Uncle. (His sister Barbara Hogg is my Great Granny) the only 'official' tie for this is that he is stated as son in the 1901 census and as stated before that he emigrated to Auckland with his brother Peter.

Now for some facts. I have John's parents as Alexander HOGG (b. 1860) and Agnes JEFFREY (b. 1858). Alexander HOGG's parents were Peter HOGG (b. 1836) and Ann DAVIDSON (b. 1838). I only have Agnes JEFFREY's mother; Mary JEFFREY, a farm worker, no mention of a father. I have not yet come across any Smiths. I dont know if John married, and I am also struggling to find a birth certificate for John. He was born the year before Alexander HOGG and Agnes JEFFREY married (28.6.1889), so it is possible that he may not be their true son. But saying that Alexander HOGG was a legitimised baby as his parents married two months after he was born! It seems to be a common practice in my family.....

The family home was at Todshawhaugh in Roberton. This was where my G. Grandmother Barbara HOGG was married in 1914. By 1924 the family had moved to Gladstone Street in Hawick.

I have done a quick search on Scotlands people and there is a John HOGG SMITH born in 1889, but in Edinburgh, not Berwickshire. He is illegitimate, and his mother is Margaret SMITH.

Tracey

Is it possible that after being deployed by the NZEF 7th Reinforcements that he was assigned to a completely different regiment? Possibly even a British regiment because of his nationality?

Just a thought. But my military knowledge is very poor.

Thanks Everyone!

Tracey

Hi, Tracey. Welcome to the board.

Great to hear the additional info about John Hogg, but more puzzles by the sounds!

Would it be possible that John Hogg Smith, illegitimate, whose birth certificate you've found, was the son of Margaret Smith and Alexander Hogg? Alexander then took in his illegitimate son and went on calling him plain John Hogg, hence you unable to find his birth certificate, and him being born before Alexander and Agnes married. Just a thought.

As for being transferred to a British unit, well anything is possible. Some men did transfer. However, around 30% of men (I think) serving in the NZEF were born in the UK so it's unlikely he transferred as a direct result of his place of birth.

A shame we can't get to the Commonwealth War Graves site at present to check out John Hogg of the various different forces.

Allie

Hi Tracey,

Welcome to the forum :-)

Is it worh cheching the 1901 census for a Smith family in Todshawhaugh as thats where the John Hogg Smith, that Allie found in post #12 has his Next of Kin listed (W Smith)

Grant

Allie, will you stop doing that !!
Waiting till I start my one fingered typing and then jumping in with an answer :-)

Sorry, Grant!

Hmm, do you think W Smith might be Margaret Smith's father or mother?

Oooh, Grant are you able to find John Hogg Smith coming to NZ? If you can find a separate shipping list with him on, it would differentiate him from John and Peter Hogg.


Allie

Allie,

in the newspaper artical it said he was the "Grandson of the late James Smith", why didnt it mention his parents ?

W and M easily mixed up!

Grant

I wondered if Margaret died which is why he went to live with his biological father and his new wife. He grew up calling himself John Hogg, emigrated to NZ with his half-brother Peter. They both enlisted, but John had a thought...oops, Hogg isn't my real surname, I better use the one I was born with. Hence enlisting as John Hogg Smith. Then he used his grandparent's as next of kin because... erm... I've not got any idea on that one.

I think I should take up writing for Mills and Boon.

Allie

Allie,

had a lookie, cant see a John Hogg Smith, there are a couple of other John Smith's, but none with H's

Good idea

Grant

Or

As Tracey says, he was born before they were married, could be a family members ******* son

Grant

Grant, we'll have you on Mills and Boon's payroll soon as well.

1891 census. Does that have John Hogg living with Alexander and Agnes? How about Margaret and son John? If both Johns are in situ, then they're not one and the same.

Although I presume it would be far too tricky to find Margaret Smith with her son John Hogg Smith considering the number of Smiths about the place.

Allie

It was a dark and humid night.....

Opps sorry, wrong list

My Census only cover England and Wales, needs some one with the Scotish version to locate them

Grant

Oh, drat. Ah well, at least the census forms are available somewhere. Ours were all destroyed so we'll never be able to look at them.

We're still left with the problem that James Hogg Smith was killed 2 years and a month before the date in that newspaper clipping. 6/5/15 versus 22/6/17. I think we need Geoff's search engine to find out which NZEF men were killed on 22/6/17 and see who might fit - but again, we have to wait til the CWGC is up and running again.

All I can see are the names, but can't do the links til tomorrow. Edit Oh, I could check with the cenotaph instead.

COLLINGTON 31398 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
FIFE 19136 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
HEADIFEN 10/3288 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
HULME 5/285 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
HUNTER 13334 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
MCCAUSLAND 7/1117 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
SANDFORD 21613 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
THOMSON 32089 22/06/1917 NZ NOK
VAZEY 26718 22/06/1917 NZ NOK

Of course, that doesn't mean they couldn't have had grandparents back in Scotland!


Allie

CWGC site is down this weekend,

Might just have taken that long for the newspigeon to get there

Grant

Its late and I'm going to bed as soon as I have written this...

I think I've just found John HOGG SMITH living in Newington, Edinburgh in the 1891 Census (Ties in with the birth record)

Household Members:
James SMITH Head age 65
Margaret T SMITH Dau age 25
James SMITH Son age 22
Barbara SMITH Dau age 15
Daniel SMITH Son age 13
John H SMITH Grandson age 1

This ties in with grandfather James.

There is a Margaret T Smith dying in 1900 in a close by area on scotlands people.... but there are 4 other Margaret T's dying in scotland between 1901 and 1930.

Now I havent found the HOGG family in the 1891 census. It was pre-nuptuals so I didnt expect to... But I think thet married across the border in South Shields/ Durham so I would anticipate they could be on an English census somewhere as my (Great Auntie) Mary HOGG was born in England in 1889/1890 (not found her birth certificate despite that is where i started my research a year ago as she was a lovely lady and lived until she was 98 :-D)

I also cant find John H in 1901.....

Can you find the parents in 1901?

Edit - just had a look on the English 1891 and there are billions of John Hoggs, I'll have a proper look tomorrow

Grant

That really is a puzzle, isn't it?

We do know that John Hogg Smith had a grandfather named James Smith. However, going by his age of 65 in the 1891 census, James Smith would have been approx 89 in 1915 when John Hogg Smith was killed and 91-ish in 1917 when Pte John Smith NZEF (whomever he is) supposedly died on 22 June. That fits with him being the 'late James Smith', though.

The other NZEF Smith who died close to that date, though was a Private Thomas James Smith, 24457 who DOW in France on 25/06/1917. NOK is listed as his mother Mrs Catherine Smith (mother), Waitati, Otago, New Zealand as next of kin. He's most certainly not named 'John', though.

According to Geoff's search engine, there were 7 men named Smith who died on 22/06/1917 with the BEF, 35 if you look at a range of dates from 19/06/1917-25/06/1917. Can't check what first names are at present. (CWGC and all that).

1 Australian died between those dates, but not on the actual 22nd, 1 New Zealander - again not on the 22nd, 2 Canadians - different dates as wel, and no South Africans named Smith died on or near date (at least with the parameters I put). Just in case granddad had a lapse in memory when it came to which forces his grandson served with.

Allie

I think we probably need to look further into Private John Smith 8/4222, DOW 11 June 1917.

If we can find out where he was born, it might help us see if he is James Smith's grandson mentioned in the newspaper.

John Smith's next of kin was listed as his brother-in-law John Ironside, of Pembroke Otago. John Keith Ironside married Margaret Smith in 1905. However, a John Ironside of Pembroke died in 1916 - not sure if it's the same one (he was 66)! Maybe there could be an alternative next of kin listed on John Smith's file in order to send medals and plaque etc? However, there was another John Ironside who died in Pembroke in 1940 aged 64, so this could be the brother-in-law instead. Anyway, why would he list is brother-in-law as his next of kin and not his sister? She didn't die til 1936.

(Sorry, going off on every mad tangent I can think of to try and work out who is who.)

Allie

I've just woken up remembering I have this; 1891 Census for the HOGG family living at Howford, Traquair, Peebles:

Alexnder HOGG Head age 29 b. Hounam, Roxburghshire Occ: Ploughman
Agnes HOGG Wife age 20 b. Coldstream Berwickshire
Mary HOGG Dau age 1 b. England
Peter HOGG Son age 2 Mo b. Traquair, Peebles

NO John HOGG!!!! I think we are getting close!

Tx

Ooooh, thanks, Tracey! So we've got one young John in 1891, and we've only got one in 1901 as well, haven't we?

You've just got to love a good mystery.

Allie

Thats right Allie. One John HOGG SMITH in Edinburgh 1891 and one John HOGG in Peeblesshire 1901.

Now as far as I can gather what doesnt tie in is:

1. The birth places. John HOGG SMITH I have a birth cert for Newington/St Giles in Edinburgh. But I could ever find one for John HOGG in Gordon, Berwickshire where it states he was born in the 1901 census. Just a shame we dont have the census for 1911 yet......

2. The dates of death as you stated in a previous post: 6/5/15 versus 22/6/17 .

3. W. Smith. I've not found a Smith family at Todshawhaugh, again, this might not show up until the 1911 census .

As a total aside, I was trying to find out a bit more about the town of Pembroke (where John Ironside, bro-in-law of John Smith 8/4222 resided). Couldn't find a thing. Of interest probably only to NZers, the town of Pembroke changed its name to Wanaka in 1940. Wanaka is home to the New Zealand Fighter Pilots Museum and is host each year to 'War Birds Over Wanaka'. The town is a bit of a tourist magnet.

Allie

Well done you lot - keep going!

Has anyone mentioned trying to find a census or death certificate for the grandfather, James Smith? (why couldn't he have had an obscure Border name?)

I will try to summon the help of a couple of Scottish record experts.

Post #39 - if the mother W Smith IS a single mum, she might be employed as a maid / helper in another familys house, possable why no Smith family ?

Grant

Funny you should mention it, I have found James SMITH in the following years:

1881: Address: Echo Bank, Liberton, Edinburgh, Midlothian
James SMITH Head age 58 b. Drumblade, Aberdeenshire Occ: Sexton
Janet J Smith Dau age 14
James Smith Son age 12
Jane A Smith Dau age 10
George SMITH Son age 8
Isabella SMITH Dau age 5 (or Barbara?)
Daniel SMITH Son age 3

Margaret appears to be in Domestic service at this point in time (Address 44 Clerk Street, Newington)

1891: Address: Echo Bank, Liberton, Edinburgh, Midlothian
James SMITH Head age 65 b. Drumbald, Aberdeenshire Occ: Sexton at Cemetary
Margaret T SMITH Dau age 25 Occ: Unemployed Domestic Servant
James Smith Son age 22
Barbara SMITH Dau age 15 (Same person as Isabella??) Occ: Unemployed Domestic Servant
Daniel SMITH Son age 13
John H SMITH Grandson age 1


1901: Address: 2 Parkside Street, St Leonards, Edinburgh, Midlothian
John DRUMMOND Head age 30 occ: blacksmith
Barbara DRUMMOND Wife age 25
James SMITH Father in Law age 83 b. Drumblade, Aberdeenshire Occ: Retired Sexton
David SMITH Brother in law age 23 occ: mason (Daniel??)


I have looked for Margaret T SMITH's (wish I knew what the T stood for!!) birth and death and not come up with anything positive. It says St Giles in the Census, but out of the 3 I checked none are correct. Its like looking for a needle in a haystack....

I still have my doubts especially where the next of kin is W Smith. It just doesnt all tie together. So I think my next move is to send away for John Hogg SMITH's service records...

Tx

Grant, thats a fair point. Margaret could have gone back into domestic service if the Hoggs started looking after John.... And that means the M/W initial could have got muddled up and would tie the next of kin in nicely...... I'm off to look for Margaret in 1901...... Fingers crossed.....

Tx

Tracey,

Even wth John still with her, she would have needed to work, if she had no one to provide for her

No John Smiths emigrated 1890 - 1914 within your age bracket (born C 1890)

Grant

Service record information:

Pte John Hogg Smith 10/534
John Hogg Smith was born in Berwick, England on 12 August 1883. Prior to enlisting in the NZEF he had spent 9 years in the Durham Light Horse.

He attested at Wanganui on August 17, 1914. On his attestation form for the NZEF he listed his trade or calling as 'Bushman'. He was unmarried.

He sailed on Transport No. 3 to Egypt where he spent time in camp at Zeitoun, where a couple of infractions saw him detained for 5 days at one point, and then 120 hours at another. On 22nd April 1915 he made a Will leaving everything to his mother, Mrs Hogg, Todshawhaugh, Hawick, Scotland.

He landed at Gallipoli on April 25th 1915, and some time between then and April 29th, he sustained a gunshot wound to his right thigh. He was on the hospital ship Galeha, and transferred to another hospital ship, the Goohha, where he died on approximately 8 Mary 1915 en route to either Egypt or England (one paper says the first, another says the second) of septicaemia (blood poisoning) from the gunshot wound.

John Hogg Smith had two people listed as NOK.

Mr W Smith (clearly written W, no error on it being an M),
Todshawhaugh
Hawick
Scotland

AND

Mrs Agnes Hogg (mother)
14 Gladstone Street
Hawick
Scotland

His medals, plaque etc were sent to Agnes Hogg.

I think we have our man. But I'm wondering also that Margaret Smith and son may be a red-herring in this instance. Was she necessary, or just happened to associated with a John Hogg Smith who may have been our boy eventually, but turns out to be the mother of another John Hogg Smith? Does the date of birth match John Hogg Smith of Edinburgh? Could he perhaps not have known where he was really born?


Pte John Smith 8/4222
This John Smith was born in Bannockburn, Vincent County, NZ (This is in central Otago, and was part of the gold rush) on 28 November 1884. (Not Bannockburn, Scotland)

I think with all the information above we don't need to look any further at his file, especially as he was born in New Zealand. I suppose he could still be the grandson of James Smith of the newspaper article, but there's nothing on the file to give any clues to this. He definitely died on June 11 1917, not June 22nd. However, he did die at the 22nd General Hospital if that could have been part of the confusion.

He and his brother Charlie enlisted together:

Surname SMITH
Given Name Charles
Category Nominal Roll Vol. 2
Regimental Number 8/4221
Rank Private
Next of Kin Title John
Next of Kin Surname IRONSIDE
Next of Kin Relationship Brother-in-law
Next of Kin Address Pembroke Otago
Roll 28
Page 15
Occupation Coach-driver

Charlie survived the war. His page on the cenotaph is here.

Allie

Allie - a marvellous piece of sleuthing! HMNZT No 3 was the Maunganui. Wonder why he used a different name though?

Zack

Yeah, that bit is still a puzzle, actually.

I do love my syteries to have all the lose ends tied up, so this is irritating me no end!

Allie

Hmm, trying to tie up John Smith of Bannockburn with a James Smith of Scotland.

John Smith DOB 28/11/1884 (Later on 8/4222)
enrolled at Hawea Flat School on 25 January 1892
His parent/guardian is listed as James Smith, address Luggate. He had previously attended Luggate School, and finished at Hawea flat school on 5 May 1893 to return to Luggate.

Brother Charlie also attended this school. All details as above. His date of birth is given as 1 November 1886

Also attending this school, enrolled on this date by James Smith was Jane Smith (DOB 20 Sept 1877 - she left school on 29 November 1892 for home duties), Elizabeth Smith (DOB 5 October 1878 - she left school on 9 March 1892, destination 'Cromwell hospital') William Smith (DOB 20 October 1879) Margaret Smith (DOB 7 November 1882) and Charlie's twin sister, Mina Smith (DOB 1 November 1886).

So there we have this [probably] totally-unrelated-to-anything-we-want-in-Scotland Smith family.

By the by, John Smith of date of birth 29/11/1884 enrolled at Kaikorai School (Dunedin) on 19 November 1894. His address is given as Roslyn (a Dunedin suburb) and his parent/guardian is given as Mrs C Duncan. His last school was in Sydney. He left Kaikorai school to go to Albany St School. I think this must be a coincidence of near-date-of-birth, as there's no matching Charlie at that school.

Thanks Allie. Fantastic work!!

It looks like this is now creating more questions! I am now convinced that John HOGG and John HOGG SMITH 10/534 are the same person, The mention of Agnes HOGG being the link and Todshawhaugh (Interestingly pronounced 'Toe - je - hoch' (och as in loch) as corrected by my Mum last night! Crazy Hawick dialect )

Now safely presuming Agnes HOGG is correct. She had lived at Todshawhaugh and 14 Gladstone Street at various times. I remember visiting both John HOGG's sisters Barbara and Mary who lived at 10 & 17 Gladstone Street in Hawick when I was a wee girl. They lived in Gladstone Street until they had to go into a nursing home aged 89 and 94 respectively. But I'm now rambling....

I'm still wondering about W Smith, and the altered birth date. 1883 as opposed to 1888. But Berwickshire ties in with the census and away from the John Hogg Smith in Edinburgh...

I'll report back after searching for the earlier birth date for John.

Thanks again everyone, especially Allie!!!!!!!