Pals

As the artillery of the East African campaign is most definitely not my strongpoint can anybody please help identify this artillery piece?

Regards

Steve

Are you sure its WW1 East Africa ? - looks like one of the South African War naval guns on improvised carriages

Provenance of photograph is good and definitely makes it WW1 East Africa. Caption on back of photo reads "7th SAI with Heavy Gun" although what the 7th SAI are doing with it is another question.

Ayup Steve,

This looks like one of the naval guns of the RMA. Exact mob I cannot say but looks like one of the Peggy guns.

Roop

Hi Steve,
A very interesting photo.
Do you have any photos of a Stokes Mortar Gun used in East Africa in WW1?
Cheers
Shirley

Roop

Many thanks, at least gives me something to go on, any idea if the South Africans had any of the Pegasus Guns?.

Steve

Thanks Shirley,

I only recently got the photo, the artillery in East Africa is not my number one subject but I thought it interesting enough to get.

Unfortunately, in answer to your question, I'm afraid I don't have any photos of a Stokes Mortar Gun being used in East Africa.

Regards

Steve

Hi Steve,

" any idea if the South Africans had any of the Pegasus Guns?."


No the SA did not have any of the Peggy guns , they had the field artillery and the 1 x 5" Howitzer battery( 4th Cape RGA, aka 12th Howitzer Battery) . So the photo is either the RMA or the detachment formed to operate the reclaimed Peggy Guns.

Roop

Roop

Don't know if it helps but it was being pulled by one of these...

Steve,

I believe this is a Reo truck. Now depending upon the date of the picture this is most likely attached to No 10 Battery which was the reclaimed Peggy guns. Nominally they were towed by Packards with Reo's for ammunition. You may note that the truck is loaded with ammunition.

No 10 Battery was at Kondoa Irangi.

Be interested to know more of these pictures.


Roop

Roop

The two images I've posted are from the same photo, it was taken by a Frontiersman sometime during the campaign. Unfortunately apart from the details on the back "7th SAI with Heavy Gun" there is no way to date the photo and being a non-Artillery man I've no idea as to what unit it could be.

Steve

The gun and truck are 10 Battery ie Pegasus Guns. The picture is most probably taken at Mbuyuni or at the latest near Lateama Reata Nek hence the 25th RF being able to photograph them, after these actions the 25th and 10th Battery were in different columns. The caption regarding the SAI may actually refer to the battery being attached to the SAI rather than being manned by them. My overall feeling is that the photo was taken at Mbuyuni on the firing ranges prior to the invasion of GEA.

Hope this helps.


Roop

Roop

That's a big help, thanks. Based on what you've said I personally feel it's more likely to be at Mbuyuni than near the nek. If that's the case then the 25th were at Mbuyuni from 6th April to 18th May 1916. How would that fit in with what you know about 10th Battery?

Steve

Steve,

10th Battery left Mbuyuni on May 17th 1916 en route for Kondoa Irangi.



Roop

Steve,

10th Battery were at Maktau 1st & 2nd February 1916 doing drill. Not sure if any of January was spent doing this.

Moved to Mbuyuni 3rd February. Daily drill and instruction till 11th. (photo)?

11-12 /2/16 Salaita Hill = 238 rounds from a position near Serengeti camp. (photo?)

13 - 28/2/16 Mbuyuni drill & training. (photo?)

Now 25th RF moved to 1st Division and on 3rd March were at Longido and not back in contact with 2nd Div until 14th March at Moshi. 10 Battery now at Taveta.

25th RF in action at Kahe 21st March

18th March 10 Battery moves to Himo River Camp (rainy season), remain there until May 17th, no live round practice possible and too mountainous for the photo location.

Hope this narrows it down a bit Steve, if you have the RF diary you may be able to pinpoint more precisely.

Roop

Thats a fair observation Harry, indeed the wheels would not be correct for known Peggy guns. The other scenario would be the 11th Battery but they did not arrive in GEA until March I believe and this gun does not seem correct for their weapons.

Roop

Thanks guys, this is proving very interesting but equally very frustrating. Are we now saying it's not a Peggy Gun but some other Naval Gun?

Taking this back a step is it possible to positively identify which calibre and (possibly) mark of gun this is?

Steve

Gents,


According to Blumberg, 'Britain's Sea Soldiers' the 8 hole wheels were peculiar to the carriages built at the Salt River workshops in Cape Town. In this case, Harry's suggestion of this being a spare gun has some credance.

It is signficantly different to the weapons of the 11th (15th) Battery as can be seen in this IWM photo. The 11th(15th ) Battery did not, so far as can be determined, go into action until early 1917 from Lindi.

Given that the 25th RF were in SA recuperating at this time the only opportunity to photograph them would be late 1917, however the truck is almost new by the look of it? So possibly the gun and personel photographed are of the RMA Brigade in early 1916 or so as suggested but the location is most probably Maktau, which I shall endeavor to confirm somehow.



Roop

Steve

Could this gun not be one of the elusive dismounted (carriaged) 12-pdr 18-cwt (3-inch 50-calibre) guns ex Malta that arrived with the first contingent of the Royal Marine Artillery in Cape Town in Oct / Nov 1914 - possibly becoming "D" Battery (Roper) in GWSA and then after July 1915 becoming [briefly] something else in GEA? Those pieces were also fitted with the Salt River pattern wheels but had mule and trek oxen draught where some sort of limber would have been required.

These are not those well-travelled QF 4.7-inch 45-calibre guns modified in the Salt River [Cape Town] railway workshops that had famously done that grand tour of northern GSWA with the [old South African] Heavy Artillery [Corps] before briefly returning to Cape Town and then accompanying the [new] South African Heavy Artillery [Corps] to England in August 1915. These guns were then sent to Gallipoli in the last months of 1915.

Carl

Steve

Let's think a bit wider and include No 7 Battery. (OH page 220)

Could this be one of the 15-pounder guns used by 25RF at Besil & later incorporated into No 7 Battery, along with details of RF as crews?

The SAInf might have been visitors interested in the guns.

Harry

That sounds good too Harry, not knowing what a 15 pounder looked like it did not cross my mind it would not be a 4.7.

Roop

Roop, Harry, Carl.

Gentlemen, your continued efforts in the identification of this gun are very much appreciated. I only wish I could add something useful but Artillery, as I've said before, is most definitely not my subject.

I'm convinced it's an REO lorry carrying ammunition which leaves the gun's transport open to question, be it motorised or animal. Its limber appears to be behind the lorry so we can't get any idea as to how it was connected which pretty much leaves it open to most of the batteries concerned.

I did wonder about the 7th Battery, also wondered if that's what he meant to put on the photograph and not "7th SAI" but I don't know. In your opinions do you feel it more likely to be a 12-pdr or a 15-pdr?

Steve

some 4.7 in guns used in the Boer War were reused in WW1. See photo of one such on the orginal Percy Scott carriage. The wheels on this carriage appear to be the same as the gun in question although the rest of the carriage seems different. Could this be a re carriaged 4.7?

I think this is the same gun as in the first posting - but its in SWAfrica (1915) not East Africa!

Centurion

Nice photo!

Your continued efforts on my behalf are much appreciated, however in this instance I have to disagree that this gun and that of my first posting are the same.

I'd agree that the wheels are similar but the gun you have shown has a top mounted recoil spring box, on mine it is conspicuous by its absence and would therefore appear to be below the barrel.

I've approached the subject from a slightly different angle and, with the help of fellow forum member Bob H, have come to the conclusion that the gun in my posting is a 12-pdr. 18cwt. Naval Gun. I'm away from any references I might have as to which batteries used this size of gun but I'll hopefully be able to look tonight.

Regards

Steve

Guys

The gun in centurion's post no 25 is one of the QF 4.7-inch guns of "M" Battery and is thus not the gun in SteveE's original query.

There was an in-depth (and I thought very helpful and useful) discussion on RodB's topic East Africa Campaign, precisely which 7 pdr & 12 pdr guns ? at

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87952

and my own (meagre and tentative) contribution is at

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87952&st=12

My post (yet again meagre and tentative but definitely ruling out the guns of Begbie's Battery) on 3^rd Apr 2008 at

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95359&st=19

was made in the spirit of a follow-up with some new information.

There are 166 handbooks under ADM 186 at TNA / PRO Kew but this problem with the correct identification of those piece/s will be only resolved by referring to the Handbook for 12 pdr. quick-firing guns (1913) (48 Pages 33 Plates) under ADM 186/189 and in particular plates XXX.(The field carriage for 12-cwt. Gun), XXXI (The field carriage and limber for 18-cwt. Gun) and XXXII (The field carriage and limber for 8-cwt. Gun).

Should one of our TNA / PRO experts not have these images whirling on his hard drive, then I will commission a researcher to provide the necessary images and resolve what seem so to be a 90-year old mystery.

Carl

Carl, Thanks for directing me back to that thread, I had not seen its full evolution.

Has Steve not answered his own question in his previous posts within that thread?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...st&p=852011


Roop

I have ??

I've been to have a look, only posted once on that thread and an innocuous looking post it was too, only added for a bit of information.

Bingo!! With the conclusion of that thread from other contributors (Carl and Harry), having identified the gun as a 12-pdr 18 cwt. and gone through the OH again just to be on the safe side , the only battery to use the 12-pdr 18 cwt. guns was No.9 Battery.

Thanks in this instance to Carl & Roop for pointing me back to where the answer lay and, quite inadvertently, where I did sort of answer my own question. All I need to know now is why it's captioned "7th SAI"

Thanks

Steve

Carl

I tend to go to the NA at least a couple of times a year although having been fairly recently I won't be going for another few months, if you can wait then I'll happily do the necessary.

Steve

Steve

At your convenience with the visit to TNA.

Now all we still have to do is to confirm that these guns were in fact from Roper's "D" Battery in GSWA and which was composed of volunteers from the Cape Garrison Artillery and RM, RMA and RGA.

Carl

Carl

OK, it's on my list of things to do next time I'm there.

Steve

Hello Steve, please count me in on your list of people that would like copies of the manual if you can dig it up.. I'm happy to contribute to expenses you incur in this.
thanks
Rod

Rod

No problem, when I do eventually get to the archives, consider it done.

Steve

Steve

So will I.

Click to view attachment

Another puzzle.

At least there is a rare view of the underside of the carriage.

Carl