90 years ago, on April 9, began the Battle of the Lys.

I am astonished to see there is almost no reference to P.E.F. heavily involved in this battle and having suffered heavy losses in the sector of La Couture (La Couture redoubt).

Is there a particular reason for this disinterest?

Anyone has documents, informations or photographs ? I am very interested by the events because I am living in La Couture.

Thank you very much.

Michel

see the Portugese Memorial on april 12, after the ceremonies of remembrance with the Portugese an French High Autorities.

Michel,
a mon avis(clavier anglais),je pense que les Britainiques ne connais pas trop l'histoire de ton region et especiallement(brin,c'est dur francais)l'histoire des Portuguese las bas pendant la guerre car il ny a personne qui a fais une vraie histoire on Anglais.
Ouais,il y a quelques livres mais rien trops intressant.La Bombe est plus connu pour le monument Indien que pour les Pork & peas.
(mes excuses,je ne parle pas pour tout le monde,j'esperre )
David.

Michel
Bonjour

Don't be astonished - only around 10% of the Forum members like to take a broad view of the conflict.
The other members research very specific areas of interest to themselves, as is their right.

I took some photos in the Lisbon Military Museum and this is one.

The PEF was never brought to full strength in France because at that time the USA Army required all the shipping.

Harry

Michael

I have done some searching through my books and bound magazine collections with no luck so far. I will continue looking and will post here if I find anything.

I have thousands of photo images from the war to look through so something might turn up.

Good luck.
Justin

Interesting question Michael. The fact is that the majority of accounts in English that mention the Portuguese are dismissive of them. A number of British divisions received Portuguese soldiers for training, there was considerable friction on both sides, and the British held little regard for their Portuguese allies and their perceived lack of professionalism. Little consideration was given at the time to the political situation in Portugal, or the conditions imposed on the PEF. However, they were remembered on the 9th of April, and mentioned in the thread on the Forum. I had hoped to be in the area of La Couture at the time, but circumstances conspired against me.

I do not know whether you are involved in ARHAM, but they produced a couple of good books on the Portuguese/Battle of the Lys, and there are a couple of good websites dealing with them. A little googling will bring up several alternatives.

I'd be interested to read more, and i reckon many of the people on the forum would. The main reason for the lack of coverage is the site and the forum is specifically about the British Army, and retains this as the focus. No more reason than that I think.

regards

doogal

Michel
Above is a mural in the Lisbon Military Museum.

This link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_the_Great_War gives a brief but good description of Portugal's contribution in France.

Britain in effect sponsored the Portuguese units and attached British liason officers to them.

Harry

Those Portuguese units with British officers did not retreat on 09/04/18 as many all-Portuguese units did, although we should remember that these units were well under establishment for officers - many took home leave (which ORs could not obtain) and never came back to France.

No, it's not, it's about all aspects of the Great War. It just happens that a majority of active members come from the UK, and that the Army is the largest service.

Hi Michel. As someone who is very new to WW1 study, I must admit that I only learned that Porugal was even in the War a few months ago.

Portugal's other role in the Great War was of course in Portuguese East Africa. Their contribution to the fighting on the WEstern Front is little known due to their relativley small contribution, their apparent lack of success and the lack of any histories in English which deal with their service.

Tom, the Padre and I were at the Portugese Cemetery at La Bombe this weekend, and the wreaths, etc, are all still there. Pleased also to see it have been 'done up' for the ceremonies: walls painted, flag replaced, etc, since last year.

I'd like to know more about them.

Extraordinary sketch of the Gas attack.

The Aust. Official Histories may be of interest.
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/6/chapters/13.pdf

This volumne has several references to the Portugese as found in the index, but Ch 13 as in the link, is probably of the main interest.

Kim

The La Bombe Cemetery is well worth a visit, although I have seen it in very different states of repair over the years. It was in beautiful condition when I visited with my school group a few years ago while re-tracing the Lys Offensive. Are we the only British school party ever to visit?

I stand corrected. Especially as I quite regularly on topics other than the British Army. It is the Long Long Trail to which I refer.


from Chris Baker's welcome page on the LLT.

Chris's vision has exceeded itself and grown with his introduction of the forum attached to the Long, Long Trail.
I may be wrong, but I think every part of the British Army has been explored on this forum, and in doing so, introduced many other Armies, including Turkish and German. Through this forum I have learnt of the many, many different regions of the British Isles that came together to become the British Army.
It has become the number one resource for the Great War on the forum, and one only has to ask, to be directed to other sites that can provide greater detail, if this forum cannot.
As with the question that started this thread, so have other lesser known Armies become more known to members, through this forum.
Let's hope that more can contribute to this thread so that we may learn more about the Portugese.


Kim

My book ('Swansea Pals') has a photo of some Portuguese soldiers as well as a brief account of their arriving in the line.

Bernard

Put very simply, I am very ignorant about the 'Pork and Beans' - not written thus from disrespect, but from British Army useage. I would like to know more. Although any translation is unlikely, is there a Portugese equivelent to the OH, or indeed any worthwhile books on their contribution to the Great War? I have seen very lttle than passing, and generally dismissive, comments in personal accounts . What, for instance, were their numbers on the Western Front (and casualties)? Were they on any other fronts than the Westren? As a sea faring nation what was their contribution? What about the air war, were they represented? As I say - I come from a position of total ignorance (again).

I found this interesting ..... as I had no idea about it at all ...... I wonder how this matches up to the real story ??


Portugal's most important market was Great Britain, and Germany's U Boat campaign effected the Portuguese trade drastically. King Manuel II was dethroned by a coup in 1910 when he upset some people after he caved to British pressure to surrender some African territory after serrious threats of war. The fact that most European monarchs were far more pro Central Powers than entete made this one more step towards the British side. Also, Portugal recieved symbolic aid from the British at the battle of Atoleiros in 1385 when King John of Aviz defeated invading Castilleian troops supported by French cavalry thus gauranteeing Portuguese independence. In reality the force was small and played a very minor role, but it started the legend of Portugal being "Britain's oldest ally". That legend grew increasingly during the Napoleonic Wars when Nelson and the Portuguese pushed through Iberia towards France. All of this, along with German Schutztruppe in South West Africa inciting rebellions in Angola and attacking Portuguese outposts in Mozambique form Tanzania before war was declared, led to Portugal going to war in 1916. They siezed a large amount of German ships who were cought around Gibraltar in 1914 and sought safety in Portuguese ports. They also sent an expedition force to Mozambique to open up a Southern front and streach out the already thinly spread German forces under von Lettow-Vorbeck, and they already had an expeditionary force in Angola dealing with native rebellions, some caused by the Germans, and some not. However, the front they opened in East Africa was in a widely uncharted area, and it was low lying jungle that was very prone to tropcal diseases and flooding. The Expeditionary force was under the command of General Gil. The Gil Offensive was a massive failure and the Expeditionary Force was decimated. Troops starved at the front while crates of food sat on docks in Southern Mozambique. The supply lines were non-existant as the rain had been bad and flooding was all encompassing. Mules, horses and oxen died from the teste fly, and motor trucks sank in the mud. The Gil Offensive also failed due to the Germans far better encompassing of the native population into their military, these Askari, as they were called, were better at jungle and savannah warfare, not as prone to tropical disease, and proved superior than their Portuguese counterparts, and the Germans learned well from them. Those who did surrvive in fighting condition were simply incorperated into the colony's garrison. General Gil suffered the fate of many of his men and died of disease. A think a second expeditionary force was sent, but Im not sure. Either way von Lettow lost control of Wintgen's and his force who broke through British lines and went raiding, distracting the bulk of a highly skilled and newly formed Belgian force and many British troops. This covered Lettow as he grouped his remining forces into one column and broke through Portuguse lines and rampaged through Africa till the war ended. In Europe Portugal formed the CEP, Portugues Expeditionary Force, which assembled in Tancos with extrordinary speed in 1916 with 33, 000 men. Eventually the force would reach 55, 000. Because of the U Boat threat and President Wilson demanding British ships to transport US troops if America was to join the war, The CEP wasn't able to arrive in France until February 1917, and they didn't enter the line until April. Throughout 1917 they performed poorly, and when granted leave many deserted. They had taken a 12 kilometer section of the front and were under the command of the British General Horne. In November 1917 command was finally changed to Portuguese command, led by General Norton de Matos. The condition of the CEP improved greatly at that point. In April 1918, as the German's carried out the deadly Kaiserschlacht offensive the CEP was thrown into the war's deciding battle. The Germans opened opperation Georgette after opperation Michael failed to capture Amiens. Ludendorff may not have taken Amiens, but it did push the BEF back and leave the channel ports vulnerable. Thus operation Georgette to take the ports and cut the British supply lines. The objective was Hazebrouck, a railroad junction and stepping stone to Dunkirk, Calais and the channel ports. The center of the offensive was launched at the 2nd Portuguese division by 8 divisions of 100, 000 men rushed forward against 20, 000 portuguese who had only 88 guns, while the Germans had the largest artillery barrage in history on their side. About 7500 portuguese were lost in the onslaught of German gas, tanks, flamethrowers and airplanes, but they held their ground and stopped the operation. The CEP had lost about 35% of their fighting force in Georgette, and were forced to encorperate into the British forces due to the fact that shipping replacements from Portugal was impossible due to America's dependence on European transports and the U Boat threat. In the end it could ligitamitly be said that Portugal's military contribution to the entete powers could be considered greater than that of America. They dented an all ready damaged German tradeing fleet, outstreched German forces in East Africa and stopped the onslaught of Germany's all or nothing offensive.

http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseact...AACBBA883461935

Thanks Annie.
Never heard of this till now.


Gotta love this forum.

Kim

Propaganda post cards of the First World War .... say quite a bit .... scroll to Portugal

http://www.ww1-propaganda-cards.com/emil_dupuis(2).html

And this is a picture of the memorial in Coimbra Portugal !!

Hi Michel,

I have a number of books (in Portuguese) and an orbat for the CEP (Corpo Expeditionario Portugues).
I was recently at Richebourg on the 7th of April and popped into the cemetery at La Bombe.

Neil

This is from the NY Times ....

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...FB2668383609EDE

Annie

Last year I attended a talk about the Portuguese in WWI which made extensive use of reports prepared by British liaison officers. The talk presented a very strong case that the Portuguese forces in France were poor and unreliable. The Portuguese officer corps was especially poor and many of them went home and leave and did not return to France. Both the French and British Staff did not want the Portuguese put into the front line.

When they did face the German assault they generally did not perform well and some British troops who tried to stop them retreating were threatened with being shot. Their contribution to the war was small.

Steve

Steve,

I probably supplied the material for that 'talk' should it have been at the medal club in Cheltenham?
True, many of the Portuguese cleared off, rumour has it on Cyclist Corps push bikes, but how little do we hear about how our own soldiers 'clearing off in the face of the German assaults of March-April 1918, it's easy to blame someone else. Was there not a book entitled 'See How They Run!'?
On a more positive angle there was a stiff resistance from Portuguese soldiers at Huit Maisons, not far from La Couture which resulted in one of the highest decorations of the war for one particular soldier Anibal Milhais of the Chaves attachment to the Tomar Bat. No 15 who performed with great heroism along side Scottish allies with skilled use of the Lewis gun.

Obrigado Os Soldados Desconhecidos!

Neil

Hucclecote, Gloucester

Hello David,

c'est justement parce que rien ou presque rien n'existe en anglais que j'ai lancé ce sujet... j'espère en fait obtenir des réactions de gens qui auraient des documents privés à partager et pourquoi pas celles de Portugais qui visite le Forum.

Amicalement

Michel

Bonsoir Harry,

Thank you very much for your post.

Could you please say to me where the action of the gas attack was and who is the war artist who maked it ?

Michel

Hello Justin,

thank you very much for your offer, all helps are welcome.

Michel

Hallo Gents,

just a thought but to me the Portuguese contribution to WW1 does seem to

get very lightly covered and in some cases covered on the negative side.

In books, Forums etc..etc..

I feel that it has not been to well researched by post World War 1 writers.

Possibly one way to rectify this would be if some of the Portuguese members

of the Forum would be willing to share their knowledge of the Portuguese contribution

to the Allied cause.

A couple of years ago I did discover a web-page written by a Portuguese Gentlemen

but it was very bitter towards the British attitude to the service of the Portuguese troops in WW1 (Europe).

Perhaps if he had spent a little more time presenting the Portuguese side of the story,

instead of referring to how the British ran the Portuguese effort down,

maybe today there would have been a clearer understanding of the factual matters.

Did the Portuguese break? I think its a matter of record, that they did, but not all of them.

Were they poorly equipped and motivated? Possibly so.

I too would like to see more of an in depth study about the subject, but, one has to be wary of

any attempt (be it local or foreign) attempts to put the subject matter in a more positive light

than is factual.

Please do not misunderstand what I am attempting to say, I intend no slight on any body's National sense of honour.

Connaught Stranger.

Michel

I'm sorry but I didn't take the details of the gas attack sketch.

The Portuguese infantry were not treated well by the Allies, rotation out of the trenches does not appear to have been anything like the British routine.

Harry

Michel

I have not heard any criticism of the Portuguese artillery batteries in France.

Harry

Michel

In East Africa the Portuguese troops came under criticism from some British & South African senior officers for often failing to hold their ground, but the German commander Lettow von Vorbeck records some hard fights with Portuguese troops.

Interestingly the Portuguese officers captured in East Africa would not seek parole by promising not to fight against Germany again, although many British officers gained a release from captivity by promising that.

I think that sometimes it was convenient for certain British officers to have Portuguese troops in the vicinity, as then scapegoats could quickly be nominated to explain any British shortcomings.

Harry

Michel

If you can get hold of a copy of "Tip and Run" by Edward Paice then read Chapter 34, as it contains a good description of Portugal and its war effort.

I quote:
There can be no doubting the magnitude of trauma inflicted on Portugal by the Great War. The nation was already in 'spasm' on the eve of war; by 1918 it was on the verge of total collapse. Some of their allies considered it 'a shame to laugh at the Portuguese', that they were 'doing their best'; . . .

Portugal insisted on fighting on the side of the Allies - many other nations did not.

Let us honour the Portuguese sacrifice with appropriate humility and sympathy.

Harry

Seconded.

Whilst the subject of Portugal in WW1 is being discussed may I take the opportunity to seek a few answers from people who know rather more than I do?

On my list (and he’s quite a long way down so has received very little attention up to now) I have an RFA Officer who was attached to the Portuguese Corps.
He died 13.04.1918 and is buried at St Omer so my assumption is that he died in hospital as a result wounds received during the Battle of the Lys.

The CWGC gives his secondary regiment as ‘British Military Mission’. Can anyone enlighten me as to what this meant?

He is also stated as a recipient of the Order of Aviz. Other than info acquired through general ‘Googling’ I know very little about this decoration and the reasons it was awarded, and would be grateful if any experts out there could point me in the direction of more detailed resources.


Apologies for the hijack of thread for personal gain.

The diaries of Capt RCG Dartford, 19th London Regt, attached as liaison officer to the Portuguese can be seen in the Dept of Docs at the IWM. Malcolm Brown drew on this source and some photos in his 'IWM Book of the Western Front'.

Hallo Wesely

from:-

http://www.jvarnoso.com/orders/orderaviz.html



Connaught Stranger

This memorial postcard is titled Antonio Gouveia Curado, the first Portugese soldier killed in France.

Chris

Hi ulsssterlad2,

I think that this thread we will learn more about the subject, personnaly as I live in the sector where they fougth, I do not know many things about that.

Michel

Hi Greenwoodman,

thank you for your answers. Please what is the meaning of "ORs" ?

Friendly

Michel

Hello Kim,

many thanks for the book, it is very interesting as I read many place's names I know very well.

Michel

Hello Marc,
you know even the French schools little visit these cemeteries, it has only begun to be part of the programme of some school's teachers and it very good.

friendly

Michel

Hello Bernard,

could we expect an excerpt from your book and the photo for those interested ?

it will be great

amicalement

Michel

"I found this interesting ..... as I had no idea about it at all ...... I wonder how this matches up to the real story ??"

Hello Annie,

whatw would we do without you?

There is certainly a great part of truth in what is written.

Michel

Hi Neil,

did you translate some parts of the books ? Are they maps ?

Friendly

Michel

"Let us honour the Portuguese sacrifice with appropriate humility and sympathy"

Harry,

that is why I started this thread here and I hope it will soon be a "classic thread", for the general interest.

Amicalement

Michel

"This memorial postcard is titled Antonio Gouveia Curado, the first Portugese soldier killed in France.

Chris"

Hello Chris,

any idea where he is buried and where he was dead ?

Friendly

Michel

Many thanks, but I have that reference, it's about as much as I have been able to find.

What I would like to know is if there is a register of the award, and what my man did to recieve it.

Michel Knockaert asked 'Please what is the meaning of "ORs" ?'

ORs is an abbreviation for Other Ranks, i.e. men other than officers. Sometimes it's taken to also exclude NCOs. It's the British equivalent of the US term 'Enlisted Men.'

Good evening Martin,

tank you very much for the information.

Very friendly

Michel