According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

Whilst it seems quite possible that English might be used as a common language, it does seem unlikely when German would have been more convenient?

It does seem strange Phil. The German Army had been involved in training and instruction of the Turkish Army for some years before the war. However, Bean is fairly reliable on facts and figures and I would not choose to disbelieve a direct statement such as this. Perhaps one of our Turkish pals can enlighten us or Bob Lembke, who has interests in the Germans and Turks.

Mate,

As far as I am aware the Turkish soldiers and officers had little or no knowage of english.

French was used by most Turkish officers and its more then possible many orders were given in French by German officers to the Turks.

It would seam strange that english would be use by anyone in a Turkish trench, but possible a German officer may have knowage of english to fool the english at some time.

S.B

Some bits and pieces from my side.
Obviusly "French" language was the lingua franca of the Ottoman intelligentsia however "English" language was also fationable. Mostly thanks to the American missionary schools.
Everybody knows about German Military Mission to Ottoman Empire but during the same period there was also a very strong British Naval Mission in the empire (especially after 1904).

Could Bean be talking about false orders being passed through the scrub from the Turkish side to the Aussies?

Yes. Bean is not saying that the Germans or Turks passed English commands down the Turkish lines, but that cases were recorded where German or Turkish officers yelled false orders in English which were then taken up in the Anzac lines.

So they were shouting in English with an Oz accent? Fiendishly cunning, eh?

Mates,

Although not on Anzac/Helles I did write about this case at the battle of Amman on the 30th March 1918.

After the NZ Mounted Brigade with the attached 4th Camel Bn took Hill 3039 outside Amman the Turks sent in a number of counter attacks during one of these the front line positions were evacuated by the NZ Troops on the belief that an order had come that they were to withdraw.

The NZ command (see Powles book) blamed the Camel Bn for this order while the 16th Camel Company (also NZ) said it was the NZMB.

Its more then possible the order to retire came from either a Turk or German offcier with some knowage of English?

This order was quickly discovered and the NZ troops did their own counter attack and regained the position.

Cheers

S.B

Yes, the issuing of the orders to the ANZACs to sow confusion makes sense, the passing of orders in the Turkish trench in English makes no sense at all. But Bean's use of the phrase of "German methods and orders" was a bit misleading.

I have seen many primany sources from Allies soldiers who were quite surprised as to how many German officers and soldiers knew their language. My father, leaving high school at 18, had good to excellent German, Latin, Classic Greek, English, and French from school; plus conversational Russian that he picked up in many trips to Russia before WW I. (When I was say 18 or 20 my father taught me some Russian so that we could talk at work with little chance of being understood by fellow workers.)

Bob Lembke

I think its all rubbish. I have come across a lot of this in veteran interviews both WWI and WWII. Everybody has a similar story, its part of battalion gossip. Jones was on sentry one night when a Turk popped up and said in English, clear as you like..." but no one I ever interviewed actually heard the enemy shouting orders in English. From the other side I read of a Turk who fought against the Anzacs. Years after the campaign he still believed he had been fighting Greeks. He told a story that he could hear them, with a Greek accent, trying to fool his mates with false orders. Now as far as I know there were no Greeks at Ari Burnu.

My explanation for the phenomenon is that a) it probably does happen extemely rarely and all the other reported cases are frightened soldiers in dangerous places understandably misinterpreting noises that the enemy make.

Peter

Hello

Peter,there were greek labours serving in the british army!,and some of them might have picked up a rifle and fought the front line!


Read Hamiltons Diary,You will find the answer in it!

Mike

At one time it was common in remoter corners of the Ottoman empire for the term Greek to be used as a synonym for Infidel and Foreigner and applied to all non Muslims. It would be quite possible for a Turkish soldier originally from a remote village to make no distinction between the enemies he was fighting and just refer to them as the Greeks - the rest could be mere embroidery any accretion as the story got passed around.

By coincidence I came across this just the other day in Westlake

The Essex Regiment
1st Battalion
2nd May 1915
"The dead included Commanding Officer Lieutenant-Colonel O. G. Godfrey-Faussett, DSO, ... ... ... According to one officer (Lieutenant R. S. M. Hare) the Colonel had been called by name by one of the enemy and shot as he got up from his dug out."

see pages 159/160

regards
Michael

There are numerous references in letters and diaries to orders in English being passed from the Turks to the Australian lines. The vast majority of these are second hand reports and by nature, probably good old Aussie "furphies", but there must have been some basis to start these stories off. Most commentators put it down to being German officers, and if there is any substance to the stories, that would be the most likely scenario.

With reference to there having been Greek interpreters, this is a well established fact. References to the interpreters can be found in the majority of the A.I.F War Diaries covering the Gallipoli campaign, on line from the AWM.

The diary of R. G. Casey, held by the National Archives of Australia, gives comment on both these issues. This was unearthed by one of the contributors to the Australian Light Horse Association, forum, John Rice. A remarkable find.

German officers passing orders to the Australian lines - Page 8 of the typed transcript, found at page 169 of the NAA digetised copies.
Greek interpreters, Pages 33 & 38, typed transcript. Pages 194 & 199, NAA.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1


The other reference that definately establishes the Greek's being employed as interpreters for the Headquarters of the M.E.F. is found in the book by Lt Col Aubrey Herbert, Mons, Anzac and Kut.

http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/Mons/mons2.htm

Jeff

more question ?

Great post,mate

Jeff,

Its more then probible that the aussie or British troops heard what they believed to be english in the enemy trenches.

I see this like, that soldiers are like parrotts and repeat things they hear or think they heard.

Its known that we use to shout Arab words at the turks so why wouldn't the turks shout english words they heard. Weather they knew the meaning of the words or not.

It can be boring at times and some soldiers like to stir the pot. While others just went to see whos there.

This is all human nature.

S.B

Similar stories have been told about, the Crimea, Indian Mutiny (Lucknow), South Africa, WW2 Italy WW2 Pacific and Korea (and doubtless many more). I have yet to see any account that is verifiable or any from the side allegedly shouting the orders that refers to it.

Steve and Centurion,

I would tend to agree with you both, there is nothing that will definitely confirm of such an incident as ever have taking place. But in saying that, something of this nature may have actually happened, it's just that we will probably never know for sure.
If such an order was shouted out in English from the Turkish lines, and at that, only once, it could be the grounds for the continuation and exaggeration of the incident, or incidents. Over time in the retelling, greatly embellished.
Steve, your points are valid, the stress and boredom of front line trench life, would and did, give rise to all sorts of yarns and furphies. The vast majority of these stories of English being shouted out from the Turks, can in all probability, be discounted as just that, stories.
The only problem is, can we totally discount such an incident as having occurred. It may well have happened.
It's a real quandary!

This particular incident is of the first few weeks of the landing and it is highly unlikely that there were any Turks who would have any knowledge of the English language, let alone, who Australians were. Most Turkish accounts refer to Australians as British or English, and this goes to even beyond the campaign its self. It is probable that there were some German officers who spoke good English, and even possible a few better educated Turkish officers, there were a few English and Australian officers who could speak and read Ottoman.
But the story is not confined to the first few weeks. L/Cpl Ernest Mack No. 66, “A” Troop, “A” Sqdn, 8th Light Horse Regiment, in a letter sent home to his Father, has left an account of the Turkish attack on the 3rd Light Horse Brigade positions, Russell's Top, 29th/30th June, 1915. Here we again have an account of Turks calling out in English: -

“They attacked by getting out of their trenches and trying to charge us with the bayonet. Our men sat
right up on the parapets of our trenches and when not firing were all the time calling out for the Turks
to come along and hooting and barracking them. In fact most of our chaps took the whole attack as a
real joke.
As soon as they stopped the first rush they jumped out of the fire trench and sat up on the parapets and
yelled out cursed at the top of their voices calling out to the Turks to come on they would finish them,
etc. etc.
A dozen Turks towards morning tried to creep round our flank but were at once observed, but instead of
firing our chaps let them come on and then started to chuck off at them and called them all manner of
names for coming so slowly, and it was not until a voice answered them and said, ‘We will soon finish
you Australian hopping Kangaroos’ that one of our chaps then said ‘We can’t stand that, so into them
boys’, which the boys did, with the result those Turks still lie there.”

I have always found this reported calling out in English rather fanciful. The Mack brothers all had a gift of sending home some interesting letters, a little bending of the truth never got in the way of a good yarn. This report is given just over two months since the landing, by this time the Turk and the Australian have come to know a great deal more about each other, and there is now a healthy respect for each others abilities, even a sort of comradery exists between the two.
But here again there is a quandary, could his account be the truth of what actually took place?
It is very difficult to accept that a Turk could know who they actually were, even if he knew that they were Australians, and even more difficult, for him to know what a kangaroo was, and even more so, to associate the two to form an insult.
But again, it's not beyond the realms of probability. The Turkish officers up on Russell's Top during the armistice on the 24th May, knew that Colonel, Dr. Charles Snodgrass Ryan was an Australian. He had served with the Turkish forces as a doctor during the Balkan Wars, 1877 - 1878, and he spoke Ottoman.

Like many aspects of the Gallipoli Campaign, they all add to the "Anzac legend".

Jeff

Quote: According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-
"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

If Bean says that "I have seen personally, one clear example of this" then I am prepared to believe him, and Lieutenant R. S. M. Hare [post #13]

The allies were defeated at Gallipoli by the best Ottoman army of the war. To a degree, it is true to say that the victories of 1918 in Palestine and Iraq were due to the run-down nature of the Ottoman army which had put its best into the field for the Gallipoli campaign of 1915.

The officers were either from the military schools [the Mektebli] or those who had risen from the ranks [the Alaili], however by 1915 the proportion of the latter was rapidly decreasing under the reforms, and in any event they rarely rose above the rank of Lieutenant.

The Mektebli on the other hand had provided for them a system of Preparatory and Secondary schools under the Inspector-General of Military Schools attached to the War Ministry. There then followed the Pancaldi Military School which was the Ottoman equivalent of Sandhurst, training infantry and cavalry officers, or the Artillery and Engineering School at Kumbara-khane. Regarding foreign languages, the cadets were taught French and either German or Russian and ribbons were awarded for proficiency.

Mustafa Kemal was in many ways a good example of the product of this system. Andrew Mango describes him as being from a precariously middle-class home. He spoke French well and also wrote letters in that language (but with some mistakes in his writing). French and German were widely spoken by the middle-class and the newspaper the Ottomanischer Lloyd was printed in both those languages.

On the whole the Ottoman officers at Gallipoli were well educated and it would be very surprising if out of the hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers encountered at Gallipoli, none of them spoke any English.

regards
Michael

Quote: According to Bean, referring to the Turks on 25/4/15:-
"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

There seems to be some difference in the way members interpret this. To me, it means that German officers gave orders in English to Turkish soldiers who passed them on to other Turks who then executed the order. I don`t see it as things being shouted in English to confuse the Aussies. They wouldn`t be concerned about the order being "passed along the trench" if it only needed to be shouted over the parapet?

An after-thought

The issue of accents is a red-herring;
many in the AIF did not have what today we call an Oz accent.
eg; Simpson would have spoken like a Geordie and there are refs to Capt. E. L. Margoline having a heavy Russian accent

Ahhhh Phil,

If you are talking about orders IN the Turkish trenches
then how do you account for Bean's "I have seen personally, one clear example of this"
when he was not in the Turkish trenches

He could have been close enough to overhear?

Odd that he should say he'd sen one case rather than heard one case!

C

I read that as indicating first-hand knowledge
rather than something which he has heard about from others

regards
Michael

Phil,

Without checking the ref to Bean,

If he was recording the 25th April 1915 then it couldn't be a first hand account as Bean wasn't on Anzac at that time. He arrived later in the year.

So the acount must relate to later, to be a first hand account.

S.B

The reference to strangers and in the scrub near the trnches would suggest an intended 'spoof' order to confuse the Aussies rather than an oficer giving orders to his own side in his own trench.

I'm finding it hard to comprehend that some pals here haven't 'got' yet that Bean is stating emphatically that these were orders issued intended to deceive the allies. They were NOT orders issued in English for the benefit of Turkish troops.

The following is for anyone who doubts that the Turks knew who they were opposing, or that some of their officers at least had a command of English:

'A peculiar thing happened on the day of the armistice to bury the dead (May 24). Shout [Captain AJ Shout, VC, MC] was in charge of a portion of the business, and he was greeted by name by a Turkish officer. His surprise may well be imagined, the more so when the Turk stated that he had worked in the 1st Brigade bar in Mena!' (Lt. Col. F.L. Kindon, 1st Bn. AIF).

There used to be a very good example of "immitative communication" at the Australian Army's Infantry Centre from the Vietnam War (I heard the five-six minute reel to reel recording in 78). It was a recording of Viet Cong/North Vietnamese Army radio operators talking in Australian accents and idiom trying to get a US air strike to change direction and bomb the "other" side of the smoke grenade. Thankfully their idiom wasn't perfect and the US Forward Air Controller after a period of confusion and acceptance authenticated them to prove they were hostile.

Though rare and mythologised, such acts aren't unknown, even a short phrase that gives a tired infatryman a moment of doubt may be seen as worth the effort by "the enemy".

cheers,
Chris

Chris
I accept that radio spoofs are well documented (British 'spoofers' disrupted German night fighter operations by imitating their controllers in WW2). It's messages shouted into trenches thats the issue

"The Turks are well trained; German methods and orders have certainly been given to the men in the trenches by strangers – possibly in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this."

It`s hardly emphatic but I see that it can be interpreted as spoof orders. My first impression was that they were Turkish orders to Turks from Germans. I assumed "men in the trenches" to mean Turkish men.

The more one looks at it Bean's account is odd whichever interpretation one puts on it.

The more I look at this, the less sense it makes. How does one get a German method passed along the trench by giving orders in English? What, in this context, is a German method? Why do these strangers lurk in the scrub and not stand in the trench with the men? If we assume that there is a German hiding in the scrub giving spoof orders to the English, what does this have to do with the Turks being well trained? How does Bean know that the stranger is German? Why not a Turk?

The quote is taken from:- http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/1landing/bean.html

Steve - the way I read that, Bean was on Anzac later that day?

The more you look at it the more it seems like gobbldygook. I suspect a possible mis print or transcription error. If it said "The Turks are well trained in German methods and orders have certainly been given to our men in the trenches by strangers – possibly concealed in the scrub near the trenches – who give the order in perfect English and manage to get it passed along the trench. I have seen personally, one clear example of this." It makes a bit more sense but not that much - for example if the men giving the spurious orders were the enemy speaking from a concealed position how could he see a clear example of it?

Hi friends,

back online I would like to help to erase the rumors around orders given in English language in the Turkish army. All records I read said, that the German officers needed interpreters to translate the orders from German into Turkish orders. The original language was Turkish with the old Ottoman spelling. There are still many original orders left - for example given by LTC Mustafa Kemal and other staff officers and commanders and nobody used the English or French nor German language.

At that stage I would like to invite everybody who is available and willing to listen to a lecture in German language on 6 June 2008 to the German-Turkish bookstore in Istanbul - Isteklal Cadessi 18.30. It will be the first presentation of my book, which is unfortunately only available in German language yet. The English translation is on its way but we need to find a English or Australian publisher. The presentation in Germany will be 12 June in Bonn and you are invited as well.

Best regards
Klaus

Gallipoli 1915, 288 pages, 13 coloured foldable maps, 112 black-white pictures and 24 coloured pictures, ISBN 978-3-932385-29-2, 32,-€

Centurion,

"for example if the men giving the spurious orders were the enemy speaking from a concealed position how could he see a clear example of it?"

The answer to that is quite simple, as given by Casey, Charles Bean witnessed the false order being passed by word of mouth, down the Australian trench line.

Bryn, your quote of Lt Col Kindon, referring to the Turkish officer who had worked at the 1st Bn mess at Mena Camp, has made me re-think my point to the Turks being unfamiliar with Kangaroo's, for indeed, there were several Kangaroo's and Wallaby's taken to Egypt as mascots. This Turkish officer would have undoubtedly seen them.
Arising from this, there may be more to L/Cpl Mack's assertion than I first gave credit to.

Jeff

Klaus,

Congratulations and hope your book launch on the 6th June, goes very well.
Please keep us informed as to the English version being released. Look forward with anticipation to reading your book.
Do not forget to have your publishers forward a copy to the Australian War Memorial, and at least, the Australian National Library.
Better still, releasing your book for sale over here.

Cheers,

Jeff

No my point still stands - if he didn't see the source how could he know he was witnessing a false order being pased down the trench? Did some one say to him "thats a false order being passed down the trench"! Unlikely. Or did he hear about it afterwards in which case he wasnt an eye witness at all.

I recently found a personal account written in a nurse's keepsake book in December 1915 by a 4^th Btn soldier who landed at Anzac on the 25^th April. He mentions an order to retire, thought to have been given by a German officer.

"Monday the 26^th arrived. We had by this time got a fair good trench dug but still they gave us hell with shrapnel and about 2 o'clock in the afternoon the order came to advance. Well we did and I suppose we advanced another mile and the only Turk I saw was a dead one in a bit of a dug out. Bullets were coming pretty thick and we lost our colonel the same day and men were falling. Well the order to retire came and then they gave us hell. I myself had been struck on the left shoulder with a shrapnel bullet but fortunately for me the brass slide caught it and saved me from a nasty wound. Well I never thought I could run till then. I reckon I made even time & to make matters worse I was making for shelter behind which were several of our fellows, when I accidentally ran a bayonet into my left ankle, the scar which I carry to this day in my eagerness to get behind a bit of cover & to make matters worse they all reckoned it was the work of a German officer who gave the orders so whether there is any truth in the matter I suppose it will be found out in time when the whole bungle will be turned out."

Tunesmith

Thanks Tunesmith

So its a matter of 'thought' but in the general panic of war no one actually knew what happened. I wonder if this was the source of the story.

The belief that German or Turkish officers were yelling bogus orders intended to deceive the allies crops up in a number of sources in addition to Bean. The Australian and New Zealand troops (and I presume, most others), were taught during training to pass orders along the firing line from man to man. German or Turkish officers, being well aware of this, had - it is stated - issued false orders intended to be heard and taken up by allied soldiers and then passed BY THEM down their own line.

The Turkish officer who had worked in the bar at Mena (Australian infantry encampment in Egypt) was obviously working there as a spy. He understood and spoke English. He knew Captain Shout by name. The Turkish command were certainly aware that they were opposing Australians; if not on the first morning, then as soon as they examined the badges on one of the bodies lying out on Baby 700 or Pine Ridge. Bean (Vol 1 p235) goes into some detail as to what the Turks knew about the force assembling at Mudros and Tenedos in early April 1915.

What day Bean was at Anzac is irrelevant, as in the quote being discussed, it is never stated that he saw this on 25th April. This is an assumption not warranted by anything actually written.

Bean is pretty even-handed on this topic. He debunks the belief held by many at the time that Turkish officers yelled "Don't shoot - Indians in front!" (or similar), or announced themselves as Indians in order to get closer to the Anzac line,. Bean states emphatically that the order not to shoot because the approaching soldiers were Indian was given by Australians, and was not a German / Turkish ruse. See Vol 1 pp xiii-iv, 307-8, 440-441, 470-71, p 495.

'Spy-mania' was rife in the first few days before the opposing lines became established. Exhausted men with strained nerves could and did make mistakes. The CO of the Deal Battalaion, RMLI, for example, was shot and killed by his own men on being mistaken for a spy.

On further reading, it seems Bean has retracted his earlier belief that what he saw was German or Turkish trickery. The footnote at the bottom of page 495, Vol 1, says it all: "The writer's view is different to that which he previously expressed."

"... along nearly the whole of the firing line a message: "Cease fire. The 29th Division is at the back of the Turks." It could be heard repeated from mouth to mouth, with slightly different versions following closely on its heels: "Order to cease fire; 29th Division is only two miles away." MacLagan's headquarters were in his own firing line. As the message reached it, Major Brand, the brigade-major, who was standing up directing the fire of the ships, called back: "Where does that message come from?" The answer presently returned: "From General Headquarters." Colonel MacLagan ordered the men to go on firing, and requested the signallers to telephone to Divisional Headquarters asking the origin of the order. In the meantime a further variation had arrived along the line: "The French and Indians are just at the back of the Turks. You are to cease fire - order from G.H.Q."

"Just the sort of ruse the Germans would employ," said MacLagan. "Tell them to go on firing." The message was presently disowned and denied by Divisional Headquarters; but in the meantime, for two or three minutes along a mile of front from Bolton's Ridge to Quinn's Post, the Australians had almost ceased to fire. The rumour that the 29th Division was but a few miles distant had gone round two hours before - a delighted infantryman had passed the information to Bridges and his Staff during their luncheon. The men were ready to believe it, and officers like Captain McConaghy, of the 3rd Battalion, who insisted on firing despite the order "Cease fire," heard grumbles of "Firing on your own men!"

It is true that Turkish reinforcements were at about this time moving up near Scrubby Knoll, and everyone* afterwards firmly believed that the order "Cease fire" was a ruse of the Turks. In the light of fuller knowledge it is far more probable that the cry was started by someone in the Australian trenches who saw the line of the 4th Battalion coming northwards through the scrub at right angles to its own trenches. There were actually Turks between the advancing troops and the Australian line. Boase and his party, retiring, came on a few who had lain low hoping to escape from observation.

* The writer's view is different to that which he previously expressed.

These they shot. Such an incident, if noticed from the Australian line, would strengthen the probability that the cry arose there."

(Bean, Story of Anzac Vol 1 pp 495-6).

The passage under discussion was from Bean's original dispatch. In light of later evidence, he has modified his views.